Russia Ukraine Update Thread - part 3

Olaf Scholtz and the new , new Europe

originally posted by: Cutepants
a reply to: Quintilian

Well would say that it is ironic that 80 years ago Germany used their tanks to attack Ukraine, and now German tanks are being given to Ukraine instead for the defense of Ukraine? That would actually be ironic, in my opinion, because it's a reversal. But I suppose you wouldn't see it that way.

I guess there is also some irony there, though Russia is not and have never really been fighting just Ukraine. They are fighting the west in Ukraine. With mostly Ukrainians as cannon fodder up to now.

I also disagree that anything is being given to help defend Ukraine as much as with hopes it increases difficulty for Russia, or that the elite US war mongers even see it that way themselves. The Ukraine is somewhat irrelevant to them beyond that and was always going to be sacrificed. The mind boggles at just how corrupt and inept Zelensky and co must be.

I'm just curious which hallmarks you are referring to, if not irony?

Oh, there's all sorts of irony in the US now leading Germany and directing it's foreign policy against Russia, instead of a group of actual card carrying Nazis. The supposed great "liberators", now picking up where the NSDAP left off.

No shortage of foolishness and tragic mistakes either. This will probably end up a tragedy for both Germany and Europe as a whole. If it isn't already.

a reply to: Quintilian

They are fighting the west in Ukraine

They are fighting the west's army surplus store.

And losing.

a reply to: Kenzo

you know they call the T-72 design and most of the one that followed jack in the box.

wonder if their gonna have a speaker system that plays the jack in the box tune pop goes the wessal.

originally posted by: ScepticScot
a reply to: Quintilian


They are fighting the west's army surplus store

True enough. A bit of a giveaway there to what is actually going on.

And losing.

If losing gets you 20% of enemy territory and has them largely without power, water, heating and so forth, and with a non existent economy apart from western charity...what does winning look like?

originally posted by: Quintilian

originally posted by: ScepticScot
a reply to: Quintilian


They are fighting the west's army surplus store

True enough. A bit of a giveaway there to what is actually going on.

And losing.

If losing gets you 20% of enemy territory and has them largely without power, water, heating and so forth, and with a non existent economy apart from western charity...what does winning look like?

Winning? Maybe something like

Not driving your country into recession.

Not expanding the NATO border.

Actually controlling the areas you claimed to have annexed.

Not having your military and intelligence services look incompetent.

Not losing your biggest export customers making your country poorer for decades.


There is no conceivable scenario Russia cones out of this conflict in a better position than when it started.

Not so much losing then as already lost.

a reply to: BernnieJGato

I dont know much of the Russian tanks, but jack in the box is familiar thing..

Some of the turrets fly really high lol





Yeeh playing that tune would add nice artistic touch .

news is us will send abrams tanks to ukraine along with them getting leopards from germany and other nato countries. at least 6 new tank divisions to start and sounds like more to follow along with training and spare parts. putin will be very sad and his trolls are on here will be even sadder....

a reply to: LouisCypher

"Putin will be very sad..."

Sad? He will be frothing at the mouth and biting the carpet!

a reply to: LouisCypher

Also 50 CV90 infantry fighting vehicles from Sweden , plus Bradleys from USA


CV90: the manufacturer demonstrated the IFV firing 5th generation ATGM


I dont know are the CV90 versions the newest , or older .

originally posted by: Kenzo
a reply to: lotusaugen


I did not know Greece and Turkey have so many leopards , surely they could easely afford sending like 20 from each country .


Thanks for your comments

I got the information about the numbers of the tanks fresh from yesterday's news in the German Tagesschau (television).

But now I checked this and found out:

Greece has about 850 leopards and
Turkey has about 750 leopards, the real number is probably higher.

Sure, they both could easily afford giving some of them.

Problem is, they are in a permanent "cold war" and especially Turkey is jealous for Greece is having resources in the Mediterranean Sea, which officially belong to Greece. But we know how greedy Turkey under Erdogan is.

Following link about the numbers of leopards in Europe.
I am sorry it's in German language. But it is from Handelsblatt which is kind of serious.

www.handelsblatt.com...


It's a pleasurefor me to comment in this thread and everybody here can be assured that most of the Germans stand with Ukraine.

a reply to: lotusaugen


Thanks!

The language is not problem since google translate work .

That's how many Leopard 2 the European NATO countries have

Yeeh Turkey and Greece allways have issues...I wish Turkey should grow up .

originally posted by: F2d5thCavv2
a reply to: lotusaugen

Thank you for commenting, more viewpoints of people from EU member states are good for this thread.

Macht's gut

Cheers

I follow the Russia Ukraine Update Thread from the first day it started with Majesticgent.
I love it like you guys stay on topic and there are posts every day.

May be the picture and the standing of Germany could be shown a bit more precise, so, here I am.

End of September 2022 there were already 1 000 000 Ukrainian people in Germany, the most part refugees from this war.
The actual number is much higher, but I don't know exactly by the moment.

They got from the first day official asylum status and the same money like Germans which receive the basic unemployment money. This is more money than an average asylum seeker in Germany is getting. Most people appreciated it from the start.

Many German families invited - and still do - Ukrainian people and whole families from Ukraine.

And by the moment already 200 000 Children are visiting German schools.

Slava Ukraini

Cavv2 I thank you for the warm welcome

a reply to: Quintilian

I think you're on to something. It does make sense the more I think about it, German panzers as a Greek tragic protagonist.

Obviously they would have an inevitable fate waiting for them, that's a key hallmark: return to the East.

The border watch held in the East, long against the enemy,
Today their last patrol, returns to the fatherland.
Spent and decimated, and in knighthood true,
The best have stayed behind, we others lacked the strength.

But we bring with us the banner, that led us into war,
From Riga’s bloody plain, in all its honor back.

The battle-scarred flag, today and always,
points the way to East.

If we also perish there, that does not bother you,
Passing on the battle-flag, it is our final task.

I may no longer hesitate, and shortly they will force your hand,
To bring it to the Eastland, where it must, it wants to go.
To bring it to the Eastland, where it must, it wants to go.

And now, Germany sends Leopard tanks to Ukraine:

www.spiegel.de...

Also a famous part of Greek tragedy is the self-fulfilling prophecy. In this case Germany has for decades been trying to escape her warlike past. But that pacifism is exactly what made Putin think Europe was too weak to resist his ambition. Remember, Trump tried to warn them!

I also disagree that anything is being given to help defend Ukraine as much as with hopes it increases difficulty for Russia, or that the elite US war mongers even see it that way themselves.

But have you considered that it's easier to defend than to attack? If the West wants to cause difficulty for Russia, it makes more sense to defend Ukraine than to attack Russia, since Russia is already attacking.

And have you considered that Ukrainians control the weapons given to them? Don't you think that the locals at least want to defend their country? Even if you believe the West hopes Ukraine will attack I don't see that happening until they have successfully defended first.

a reply to: Oldcarpy2

Here is analysis of Putin decided to invade Ukraine and the misunderstandings and miscalculations it entailed

www.youtube.com...

For anyone thats interested, this is an excellent break down and look at the wars timeline so far and why things are as they are for ruZZia.



Its funny looking at it and realizing, we the West and Ukraine dodged a couple of key bullet on this... and I must admit, it makes me rather proud we as nations did and have done things we'd otherwise have not expected from ourselves the years prior even if they are fairly small in the big picture... although im sure there are those here who'd see that as something nefarious.

After months of reluctance, the US and Germany reportedly plan to send tanks to Ukraine, in what Kyiv hopes will be a game-changer on the battlefield.

US President Joe Biden's administration is expected to announce plans to send at least 30 M1 Abrams tanks.

German Chancellor Olaf Scholz has also reportedly decided to send at least 14 Leopard 2 tanks. He is set to speak in parliament on Wednesday morning.

Article

Concerning the above article: There needs to be more than the small number o allocated Leopard and Abrams tanks to swing the tide against Russian counterattacks. But the logistical tail for those tanks remains to be established, and the same applies to training the crews and fitters.

Broader comment: My initial impression of a Russian version of the Battle of Bulge occurring is incorrect; moreover, the Russians likely require more logistical support and combined arms capabilities to enable mobility on Ukrainian battlefields. The Russians may be content to settle for the present-day version of the Battle of Verdun. That approach entails an attempt to use attrition to wear down the enemy in static battles.


Also, a short but excellent look at how tanks take their place among combined arms platforms and break through enemy lines.

24 January Update

* A coalition of NATO member states reportedly will send Ukraine modern main battle tanks.

* Russian forces continued limited counterattacks along the Svatove-Kreminna line and Ukrainian forces reportedly continued counteroffensive operations near Kreminna.

* Russian forces continued to conduct ground attacks in the Bakhmut and Avdiivka-Donetsk City area. Russian forces made marginal territorial gains near Bakhmut.

* Russian sources claimed, likely to distract from the lack of progress in Bakhmut, that Russian forces launched an offensive around Vuhledar.

* Ukrainian special forces conducted a raid across the Dnipro River in Kherson Oblast on January 23-24.

More at URL above.

Cheers

Biden speaking in a minute-they are saying he is going to announce Abrams for Ukraine.


Edit:Hes just said 31 Abrams and all the neccesary equipment and supplies to maintain them will be sent to Ukraine.

The slow but steady escalation continues.

originally posted by: Silcone Synapse
The slow but steady escalation continues.

It's only an escalation if you want Ukraine to perish under the jackboot of Russian repression and terror. If you take the contrary position, which is giving Ukraine the means to defend itself, it's a de-escalation in the long-run because it will bring the war to the end which does not involve genocide.