Missouri Allows Spanking in Classrooms

>> continued >>

I still remember the first time a friend's kid thanked me for listening to his problems. His mother would just tell him to quit complaining and deal with it. Nothing else. No discussions on how to deal with anything in a mature manner. Just a "spanking" and a "Go to your room and stay out of my sight."

...

I showed him some respect.

Exactly! And respect was what he needed right then.

I have to ask, do you think anyone who spanks their children only spanks them when they're mad, or that they never try anything else? That is so far from reality it isn't in the same universe! Corporal punishment is exactly what it sounds like... punishment used to enforce boundaries. Yelling at someone isn't punishment... threatening someone isn't punishment... reacting in anger isn't punishment. You are literally describing abuse and claiming it is punishment.

I talked my kids, a lot. I always made time for them when they needed to talk. I taught them how to do things and how to do them well and be safe doing it. I never missed an awards day at their school, even when I was driving a truck OTR. One year I turned in my resignation before they relented and gave me that home time. I was going to that ceremony, no matter what. Both knew/know how proud I was/am of them.

I've used grounding... scolding... spanking... all kinds of negative reinforcement along with the positive reinforcement. That works. Paying attention works. Being fair with them works. None of the episodes you have described show parents doing those things. So you might want to step back with those accusatory tones. NONE of what you have described applies to me.

If anything like my case it just showed me at a young age that my parents weren't mature enough or capable of raising kids, and shouldn't have had any at the age they did.

That's the issue you need to be addressing: parents who will not parent. A child is not a houseplant you can water twice a day and watch it grow. A child requires adult supervision, and if someone cannot provide adult supervision, maybe they should have thought twice about raising a kid.

It is starting to look to me like most people simply don't know what corporal punishment is or how to use it. That's what happens when you refuse to accept the results of an experiment... 40 years with corporal punishment looked down on, prosecuted, banned... that's at least two generations. So yeah, maybe I have been a little hot in this thread. I honestly expected people to know something real about what they are talking about. Apparently I was wrong about that; most people are just talking out of their rears because they honestly don't know any better. The ignorance is too entwined now to remove easily.

But I will still advocate for corporal punishment when needed, and I will support my kids as they raise their own. Damn anyone who tries to demonize me for that; do it in person and it might get very painful very fast. Because I refuse to give up on humanity until I hear trumpets in the air, and to date I haven't heard them. The alternative to corporal punishment is more of the same chaos we sit around wondering where it is coming from. Well, now I know. And I refuse to accept that it is permanent just because someone like you doesn't even know what the discussion is actually about.

So, anyone in this thread defending "spanking" go right ahead. You may one day find yourself like my dad who has gone most of his life thinking he was a good parent and that his kids respect him just to find out you've been wrong about everything when your grown ass kid throws it all in your face and makes you eat your words when you can't "spank" them anymore.

Both of my kids have thanked me, on more than one occasion, for the way they were raised. Both of them look down in disgust on what society has become. And I have promised them that, if things don't change, one day our descendants will own the rest of the planet... because people will simply be beasts grunting as they go along in their little personal brain fog of trying to comprehend the world around them. My descendants will still be human.

My son sometimes calls me a "familicist"... implying a belief that our family is inherently better than others. I don't think I am, but I'll be damned if everywhere I look today it doesn't seem to be truth. God, I hope I'm wrong and just not seeing hope out there...

Someone please show me some hope!

TheRedneck

a reply to: TheRedneck
I find your posts threatening....you have basically said that you would hit an adult for hurting your feelings.

Have you trained your children that physical violence is acceptable if they feel offended by something someone says?

a reply to: Itisnowagain

I find your posts threatening....you have basically said that you would hit an adult for hurting your feelings.

When someone tries to interfere with my parental rights, they are literally endangering my children. My feelings will not be hurt in that instance. Something else will.

if you find that threatening, I suggest you do not attempt to interfere with others' parental rights. Consider that a good life lesson you should have learned from your parents: sticking one's nose where it does not belong can have unpleasant results. Just because that rule is suspended on the Internet, it does not follow that real life works the same way.

I have taught my children to defend themselves when necessary, to pick their fights carefully, and to generally mind their own business. Both have Martial Arts experience, by the way, and neither have ever been involved in fighting since turning an adult. They are both capable of defending themselves when and if needed, as well as knowing when it is needed.

TheRedneck

a reply to: TheRedneck
So are you saying that if someone says something when you swat/spank your children in a public place that you will hit them?

a reply to: Itisnowagain

So are you saying that if someone says something when you swat/spank your children in a public place that you will hit them?

Likely, I will.

TheRedneck

a reply to: TheRedneck
Did you?

a reply to: Itisnowagain

My kids are both grown. Do you mean have I?

No. No one ever thought little enough of their own safety and well-being to try that, plus I don't think I ever had to spank my children in public. If I did, it was such a rare thing that I forgot about it.

I have heard of others doing so. Some got applause from those standing around. No idea if any charges were ever pressed... none were mentioned that I can remember.

TheRedneck

originally posted by: TheRedneck
a reply to: Itisnowagain

My kids are both grown.

I know you already said in an earlier post on this thread.
This is your exact words:

my children are grown so it cannot happen today. But, while they were small, I did swat my kids a time or two in a public place. I have had people try to get in my face about it, using a similar tactic that you just used. T?he result was not pleasant for them, although I think I got across the difference between "discipline" and "abuse." You are treading on very thin ice when you start throwing accusations around like the one you just did.

So I find it fascinating that you now say this:

No. No one ever thought little enough of their own safety and well-being to try that, plus I don't think I ever had to spank my children in public. If I did, it was such a rare thing that I forgot about it.

a reply to: TheRedneck

Regarding the issue of discipline at home it surely is different from corporal punishment at school. At home it is, or at least should be, tempered by love. For me that is the main difference.

a reply to: TheRedneck
My mother slapped me hard across the face when I was a child.....she said 'that's for lying'.

a reply to: Itisnowagain

*shrug*

Then maybe I did. Memory is a tricky thing. The things I tend to remember easily are those events that I felt had a lasting impression on my kids. Other memories seem to come and go. Part of getting old I guess. You'll experience that some day.

When I replied I couldn't think of a time. Apparently I was able to earlier. I don't go back and check older posts to make sure my "story" is consistent. I say what I remember, and what I mean. Less to keep up with.

The answer is still no. No one ever tried to interfere if/when I did spank my kids in public. At least not to my memory, and I feel sure I would have remembered that. It could make a huge impression on my child that I would then have to explain to them... another reason to ensure that anyone doing that learned their lesson thoroughly.

TheRedneck

a reply to: midicon

Regarding the issue of discipline at home it surely is different frim corporal punishment at school. At home it is, or at least should be, tempered by love. For me that is the main difference.

A fair assessment and I see your point. JAGStorm had a good idea earlier suggesting that all discipline in school be video recorded for the parents to see. Schools can and have abused that privilege.

There is another difference, however. At home, there are also many more forms of punishment that can be utilized. A parent can send a kid to their room, force them to do extra chores, ground them from going out with friends... but a school does not have that ability. How can a school send a kid to their room? Isn't that suspension (which the kid would consider a vacation)? How can a school make a kid do extra chores? They are there to learn, not work, and depriving them of learning would be a violation of the very reason the school exists (not to mention would probably violate child labor laws). How can a school ground a kid after school for a week? I think that's called "kidnapping."

That's the problem. Schools have very limited ability to enforce boundaries, and taking away their main tool (corporal punishment) just means those boundaries cannot be enforced. The result is that kids run wild and learn that, away from their parents, they can do whatever they want. That apparently includes walking into their alma mater with a high-powered rifle and shooting the place up.

Punishment doesn't have to be out of love, but it has to not be out of anger. Is it better that kids are disciplined at home instead of school? Absolutely! But that's not always going to be the case.

I say bring back corporal punishment, establish some common-sense guidelines, videotape every incident for parental review, and fire any school official on the spot for flagrant violations, tenure or no tenure. Press criminal charges for abuse where obvious. The ones who do not flagrantly violate the rules? Protect them from overzealous parents.

Give that experiment a shot and see how it works out in ten years. The 40 year experiment in abolishing corporal punishment hasn't worked out so well.

TheRedneck

a reply to: Itisnowagain

My mother slapped me hard across the face when I was a child.....she said 'that's for lying'.

Did you lie to her?

I'm on the fence about a slap. I didn't slap my kids and I would have been pretty upset had anyone else done so. But an open-handed slap, while very painful, is not normally injurious.

Now, close that hand into a fist and that's child abuse. If I were to see that, I would be the one getting into someone's face. Yeah, that can be taken as hypocritical, I know... but that's how I see it. A small child taking a direct hit to the face from an adult is simply wrong. It crosses the line.

Luckily, I don't remember having ever seen that in public. I do know it happens, though.

The Catholic schools, as I understand it, use a ruler slapped across the knuckles. I dislike that more than I do an occasional open-handed slap; one can actually fracture a knuckle if done hard enough. however, parents do send their kids to Catholic school knowing in advance that such occurs, so I figure that's none of my business. I wouldn't have allowed it on my kids.

TheRedneck

a reply to: TheRedneck
Yes....I had lied to her.
Did you swat/spank your kids for lying?

I feel compelled to point lies out if I spot them.

No one ever tried to interfere if/when I did spank my kids in public. At least not to my memory, and I feel sure I would have remembered that.

Well you remembered it earlier.

I have had people try to get in my face about it, using a similar tactic that you just used. T?he result was not pleasant for them, although I think I got across the difference between "discipline" and "abuse."

Or did you just make that up to try to intimidate me earlier on in this thread?

I'm going to post here another incident, from my youth this time.

In the 8th grade, several of us were caught... uh... let's say "roughhousing" in the Gym during a short unsupervised period. Yeah, let's say that. And I was right smack dab in the middle of it. At first, we thought we had gotten away with it... nothing happened for a few days. Then, an announcement came across the PA for us all, called out by name, to report to the Gym. We all walked in, knowing full well what this was all about. There stood two of the teachers, old man Hodges and Miss Hess. Hodges had been the one to "almost" catch us. Turns out there was no "almost" about it.

We all assembled on the bleachers as instructed. Hodges then proceeded to inform us of why we were being called in (like we didn't already know). He then told us that the decision had been made that we would all receive three licks from the paddle, the boys from him and the girls from Miss Hess. Anyone who refused would be given a week's suspension.

No one wanted a suspension. We all knew what that would mean at home, and it was not a pleasant thought.

Now, let me stop to explain something about Hodges. He was well-known for how hard he could paddle. If he tried, that man could drive a 20-penny nail through an oak 2x4 with that paddle of his. He had a standard procedure: the punishee would stand in front of him, facing away, and reach down and grab their ankles. Hodges would give the three licks. But if the punishee ever let go his ankles, that lick did not count.

I should also mention that I had made a career of torturing Hodges. I knew exactly where the line was between what i could do and what I couldn't do, and I availed myself of that opportunity constantly. Yeah, I used to be a troublemaker in my own right. Hodges had never paddled me until then; he was always just shy of having cause to do so.

I actually look back on that man with respect... a lesser man would have probably gone off over me and gotten himself in trouble. He had great self-restraint. I am actually ashamed today I treated him the way I did.

Anyway, he started calling names. One by one, we would walk up to him, turn around, reach down and grab our ankles, and get three licks. Then we would return to the bleachers, almost everyone in tears. One kid, Randy, was well-known to be the local "good kid" who never got into trouble; when his time came, I watched Hodges roll his eyes a bit and lightly tap Randy on the butt. No one complained; we all knew why. Randy was just in the wrong place at the wrong time... the rest of us were guilty as sin.

Then it came my turn. I walked down to Hodges, turned around and grabbed my ankles. i was told later that Hodges grabbed that paddle with both hands and reared back. At the time I could hear him mutter under his breath, "I've been waiting on this moment!"

He swung... HARD! So hard that I almost toppled over; I had to let go my ankles to not fall on my face! I looked up and the other kids were aghast. I heard those terrible words: "That didn't count. Assume the position."

I did, and he proceeded to deliver three of the most butt-stinging licks I could have imagined. The first one had left me numb in the behind; the second was like a shot of fire; the third was agony; the fourth... I can't think of words to describe it. I stood up, lower lip trembling as I tried to hold back the tears, and walked right past the bleachers to my classroom. I got those tears pushed back down before I got there, but I guess my face still registered the pain. Everyone knew what had happened just by looking at me.

But here's what I really remember about that: I had spent years thinking that I had outsmarted old man Hodges. I had beaten him! And I had no reason to do that; he was never out of line. I just picked him as a target, I suppose because he was the creme de la creme of authoritarian teachers. But in the end, I didn't win; he did. I got my just desserts.

I never felt ill will toward him, even then. I got exactly what I deserved, and if I were able to go back in time I would go back to him, thank him, and tell him he taught me a very valuable lesson that day.

I have gotten pretty snarky with some posters over their stories, because they have taken one episode from their past and turned it into a political agenda of hatred. I just wanted to explain that it has happened to me as well. The difference is that I learned from it.

TheRedneck

a reply to: Itisnowagain

Yes....I had lied to her.
Did you swat/spank your kids for lying?

Yes, I did. A few times.

I feel compelled to point lies out if I spot them.

Fair enough. If I have contradicted myself, thank you for giving me the opportunity to explain.

Well you remembered it earlier.

Or did you just make that up to try to intimidate me earlier on in this thread?

No, i was not trying to intimidate you. Come on, man, what am I going to do to you? I don't know your name, where you live, not even the city you are in, what you look like... you really think I am going to waste time trying to intimidate someone who knows full well they have nothing to actually fear from me?

Even if I knew all that, I have no interest in driving all across God's green earth to find someone who said something on the Internet.

As to the contradiction, the earlier post was about people who tried to get in my face. No, I didn't attack them because they obviously backed off quickly. I might have warned them; I tend to do that. I also tend to avoid specific details about things like that at times, because number one, it only makes me look like some "Internet Rambo," which I don't care to be considered as, and number two, it serves no purpose and could cause unnecessary trouble for me. So some of my responses are couched in somewhat vague terms for a reason.

When you asked, I took it as asking if I had ever actually hit someone... I believe you even phrased it that way. No, I haven't. Would I if needed? Yes.

Two questions phrased differently, so they elicited two different answers. Life is not always binary.

TheRedneck