The ancient navigators

originally posted by: anonentity
a reply to: Harte

Now be fair.. We are the sickest most medicated bunch of examples of poor health ever to walk this planet caused by our own stupidity as well.

If we are the "sickest" then it's only because the others had such a high infant mortality rate and died of a lot of preventable diseases. Nowadays we can survive the Black Plague (which still turns up.) Back then, it was "suffer and die."

I may be taking meds that weren't found in any pharmacopeia (because they didn't know about high blood pressure... you just died of stroke) and would not have survived pregnancy (needed a C-section)... so ancient me would not have been healthy and would have died 40 years go.

a reply to: Byrd

Don't get me started on natural pharmacopeia, The only reason that you are on blood pressure meds is that your vitamin D levels are abysmal, along with your vitamin C levels as well, with the addition that you are not getting enough exercise. By the way, have you had your cataracts done yet,? as that's one of the common side effects of modern blood pressure meds.Throw in the Casin in dairy trying to block every arteriole in your body and you are a great profit supplier to the petro chemical industry.

originally posted by: anonentity
a reply to: Byrd

Don't get me started on natural pharmacopeia, The only reason that you are on blood pressure meds is that your vitamin D levels are abysmal, along with your vitamin C levels as well, with the addition that you are not getting enough exercise.

(laugh)

No, that's not it -- and if you think about it, it's easy to disprove. People living in the same households eating the same foods don't have the exact same medical conditions. Besides, I've been taking extra vitamin D and C for a very long time (and have taken extra-extra D since Covid started up.)

It's genetic. My parents had it, one grandparent (and possibly two) died of stroke.

By the way, have you had your cataracts done yet,? as that's one of the common side effects of modern blood pressure meds.Throw in the Casin in dairy trying to block every arteriole in your body and you are a great profit supplier to the petro chemical industry.

(chuckle)

No -- in spite of my advanced age, I'm not a candidate for cataract surgery... very minimal ones right now. My (younger) husband, however, needs the surgery -- but again that's genetic. His parents also had cataracts much earlier than mine did.

So...no. Earlier humans had worse nutrition and much poorer health because of poor quality foods (food grown in poor soil) and bad medical care.

a reply to: Byrd

Good for you can we ask about exercise?

originally posted by: anonentity
a reply to: Byrd

Good for you can we ask about exercise?

I'm terrible at it!! Always have been.

Back when I was a couch potato (I was a professional computer programmer... so we're talking Slacker City here) I had no blood pressure problems. When I got to the age where my parents had b/p problems, it happened to me, too.

That said, I do need to get myself up and out and get some exercise to stave off arthritis. No, mine is minimal (unlike hubby, who's had to have shoulder surgery and hand surgery for his (arthritis at younger age runs in his family) but my dad had to have a knee replacement at age 80 and I'd like to not have that happen.

I'm thinking a physical trainer (if I can afford one) would be best. My daily schedule is such a mess and I don't take time for it. Classes won't work, alas, because I have scoliosis and can't actually do many of the exercises (could never do them; this is a condition I've had since birth -- most teachers let me work around the problems but it's still an issue (can't lie flat on my back, for example.)

a reply to: Byrd
It's funny how the things that are good for you are the hardest to get motivated to do, I just go robotic then after a while, it isn't so bad. Most effort gets rewarded with a positive result.

originally posted by: anonentity
a reply to: Byrd
It's funny how the things that are good for you are the hardest to get motivated to do, I just go robotic then after a while, it isn't so bad. Most effort gets rewarded with a positive result.

So true (sigh)!

Back on topic, though... I would dispute the " tanawa" simply because the Maori and other Polynesians don't really use it or have examples of it. They did, however, use marvelous stick charts and we do have those and there are people who have used them for navigation.

The Egyptians really didn't like to travel - they'd do so if ordered by the pharaoh but getting away from Egypt wasn't their idea of a good thing to do. That's why the only "Egyptian" areas outside of Egypt itself are in areas they directly conquered and needed a military presence for and why they didn't have silk (widely available in China and THE hottest commodity in the world at that time.)

a reply to: fromunclexcommunicate

What's interesting is how ancients viewed things like if you notice the stars etc. circling in the sky and then look at everything you know of that does that by itself like the heavens apparently did then you get stories of Apep or a cosmic snake swallowing celestial things... in that mirror things cycle or and well snakes coiled and what better image than a cosmic snake swallowing things like an egg making things visible or invisible as they pass through its body in due course?

Very simple easy to grasp concepts like being in Apep's belly can still be used to explain dark matter and dark energy concepts so why even today would such people want to leave Apep? As Apep still works in their scientific model with the newer stuff thrown at it... like the people that refuse to even consider Einstein because Newtonian works for them just fine.

It isn't that they are stupid by any means it's just that some people have already learned astro physics etc once and re-learning it just because of something in it perceived as "new" just isn't practical to their daily life unless of course it is their job to teach whatever it is an have to stay up to date on whatever it is. Passion or interest in it really isn't an excuse when other things more important are left undone... when those people with too much time to study on their hands from neglecting other things challenge the status quo then it's here come the fragments of this place that place and yet not all in one place... taking an Egyptologist to look at the Olmecs might be fun for them; But don't expect them to know anything outside of Cairo and it would be pretty mean to expect anything more from them than not really knowing... as their guess would be the same as anyone else in not having really studied it.

"Expert" is a misnomer DaVinci is an interesting fellow when it came to the idea of experts; Some look at his career but it was ALL over the place never really settling on one thing but better than the average that had no interest in those sorts of things but not as good as an expert in each and every field... as anyone that is an expert can tell you... even though Egypt and it's ruins aren't really going anywhere other than museums? It is still a full time job to stay up to date and current on what is going on in that field to remain an expert.

Of course all these various things like radioactive skeletons and hidden caves sound cool and they are otherwise sensationalist wouldn't sell books stating the legend and the lore and to the people stating the legend or lore often times think it fact leaving a quasi-grey area allowing the person passing it off to make money on those books sleep at night... you believing it as real or not isn't important just like the expert papers people have to write and or read that are so boring you have to subscribe just to be able to read them... but that's part of how they get paid and funded.

If they were sensational? They'd pretty much sell themselves and when someone sensationalizes something... admittedly even those that have to seek out constant funds do rub their palms together as interest in whatever it is was renewed making their job more secure to continue on with their research... but at the same time the tourists traipsing around the topic "know it all" and after awhile it's how many times do you want to get poked or be Mickey Mouse at Disney and have some child stomp your foot?

Such things happen all the time to experts in whatever field it is... it doesn't matter only so many times can your foot get stomped before the pain goes away and you just become a loon as it's so ludacris that if you didn't find it funny that everyone's an expert after reading a book or an article then the world would cease to exist as; that is really how it is. Can you imagine experts having expert conversations? In tomb A-136 the dirt layer medium changed ever so slightly like over in tomb D-237?! Mmm mmm quite yes yes very good I'll be happy to read the full hundred and fifty pages about it before the symposium.

I honestly get two or three pages in on the soil samples and as much as I love some topics? Yes please; death would be much better than this... kudos to the people that love it that dearly.

I think it is rather nice that some people do stick out their foot willingly like go ahead and stomp it I'm used to it...

originally posted by: fromunclexcommunicate
And they had clock accuracy of the Persian fenjaan thousands of years ago, so tossing a common log to measure speed in knots could have given fairly accurate distances if they recorded carefully. I've always believed most of that happened in the Mediterranean sea, but am Willing to think out of the box if necessary..

You still haven't gotten around to explaining how that speed measurement would work (and be "fairly accurate"] without a shipboard clock.

Harte

a reply to: Harte

Tossing a "common" log overboard with a knotted line to count how many knots the floating log was behind the ship in some short period of time probably didn't need a sophisticated clock 1000's of years BC. More likely a song or chant that took about 30 seconds to recite would time the knot count. And the distance between knots in the early days probably wasn't standardized either, for example ancient military fleets probably had their own method for determining speed. Water clocks would be useful for timing the long legs of a charted course or heading. You could know your speed and heading for the last 6 hours with a simple Persian fenjaan.

Not going to be as accurate as a slow plodding 2500 mile Sahara caravan though.

a reply to: fromunclexcommunicate

Sands through an hourglass would be pretty good, as it would not have to contend with humidity, and could be hung on a string so it was level. You could have a twenty-four-hour one to check they were in synch.

a reply to: anonentity

I looked for a simple clay fired hourglass thinking they might have used oil but Egyptians BC probably didn't have any sealed versions suitable for ocean journeys like Maui was said to have undertaken across large stretches of the Pacific out of sight of the shoreline.

a reply to: fromunclexcommunicate

They would have used beeswax and they certainly knew how to seal honey in pots some of which has been found still edible thousands of years later in there tomb's as well as those old canopic jars into which they placed and sealed there organs which were removed as part of the mummification process so that they could maintain the house of the KA - the Body by preserving it.

a reply to: LABTECH767

The Polynesian word for a parrot is KA .

originally posted by: fromunclexcommunicate
a reply to: Harte

Tossing a "common" log overboard with a knotted line to count how many knots the floating log was behind the ship in some short period of time probably didn't need a sophisticated clock 1000's of years BC. More likely a song or chant that took about 30 seconds to recite would time the knot count. And the distance between knots in the early days probably wasn't standardized either, for example ancient military fleets probably had their own method for determining speed.

There's no way on Earth you can navigate like that.
What about currents?
What about changes in the speed?
Head out for Cyprus and end up in Spain.

originally posted by: fromunclexcommunicateWater clocks would be useful for timing the long legs of a charted course or heading. You could know your speed and heading for the last 6 hours with a simple Persian fenjaan.

Not going to be as accurate as a slow plodding 2500 mile Sahara caravan though.

Water clocks don't work on a moving ship.

Harte

a reply to: Harte

As long as you knew your latitude, and kept a log of the days. You could sail the latitudes and do other things to find out if you were near land. Just not at night. I wonder if that was the reason for the lookout at the top of the mast was called a Crow's nest, If you let one go and noted the direction it flew if it did not come back land was probably over your horizon. Taking the angle of the sun at its zenith at local noon would give the latitude for that day, they would have the sun's ground position worked out for each day of the year. I think the diagram is called an Analemma en.wikipedia.org... This one is actually printed on a globe en.wikipedia.org...#/media/File:Globenmuseum_Vienna_20091010_479.JPG

a reply to: anonentity

It is also the name of the Egyptian Soul or Ka and that of a small car haha.
www.britannica.com...

They believed that a soul would forget whom it was, forget it's own name and that immortality was if the name was remembered so many pharaoh's set out to construct great monuments, even steal them from former Pharaohs' having there names placed in new cartouche were the former pharaoh had once had his name (the Cartouche was an oval enclosure that would be used to surround a name such as a God's or a Pharaoh's and since the Egyptian writing method could be written in any direction the start of the name was often denoted with a bar or line attached to the outside of one end of the cartouche.

The Egyptians believed that a Soul or Ka had to have it's body to return to or it would wander and forget it's identity and they tried to make the tomb's of the dead especially the wealth and the rulers as homely and comfortable as possible to make these spirit's happy in there afterlife.

They very much did believe you could take it with you which made them pretty materialistic in there religion though much of what they sent with the deceased into there tomb's especially the less wealth was in the form of miniature models which they believed would mysteriously turn into the real thing in the afterlife.

a reply to: LABTECH767

Mabey not so stupid if we are actually living in a simulation akin to a lucid dream.

a reply to: Harte

I wonder if that was the reason for the lookout at the top of the mast was called a Crow's nest, If you let one go and noted the direction it flew if it did not come back land was probably over your horizon.

LOL yeah what he said..

originally posted by: anonentity
a reply to: LABTECH767

Mabey not so stupid if we are actually living in a simulation akin to a lucid dream.

Maybe you are, given that Consciousness and each individuals take on it are each unique however I would argue against that and suggest we live within a Shared reality but is that reality THESE reality the REAL reality, maybe it is but we only see such a small part with our eye's we are almost blind, we only hear a tiny bit and are mostly insensitive and completely so at the conscious level of most of the rest of the electromagnetic spectrum, our perception of solid objects is fine for our reality but take a closer look and there is no such thing as a solid object since matter is made mostly of empty space.

But getting back to the world we understand remember the Egyptians OR someone before them made objects of exquisite quality, I am happy to pin most of them on the dynastic Egyptians but it was a lost art even within Egypt as they mostly date to the older periods despite being superior to most later artefacts in there quality.

To my mind reality just is, for some idiot's especially those that think they KNOW when in fact as a matter or reality they do NOT know they merely believe or are a part of an upside down pyramid - could not resist this - that is based on an EARLY assumption were some Napoleonic, Georgian or Victorian guy assumed something was so and so claimed it was a fact that it was, then since they were seen as the experts at the time there Assumption became the bedrock of a pseudo religion that is every bit as contrived as any conspiracy theory BUT that has traction and backing.

Now more modern Archaeology in it's defence is often grounded in Observation and analysis of a far higher quality than some ancient adventuring grave robbers ideas about what was.

The problem is that like any belief Cult if you turn and question it you become a heretic or a lunatic or the idiot fringe.

And they will fight tooth and nail to prove there point, now they often win but sometimes they lose but refuse to accept they are wrong.

In Egypt there is a matter of national identity, national pride and of course the very lucrative business of tourism that keeps them KEEPING the Assumptions portrayed as undisputable fact and so it is not beyond reason to suspect that the Egyptian Antiquity's department may even have covered up or hidden finds that do not match there lucrative franchise in there portrayal of Ancient Egypt.

And the majority of the archaeological world follows suit and supports them (not proves but Supports remember the difference).

But Back to that reality question, so called (Self appointed armchair) Experts live within a blinkered reality, they will NOT accept what does not fit the criteria of there world view and will simply deny, refuse to accept or even in some cases with the crowd we have currently on this thread LIE about facts when faced with facts that do not fit there painting of reality which they have laboured to brush into being over whatever questions some of us may ask.

I am actually a police person myself and do NOT enjoy arguing but for some of them as well the facts take second place when it comes to the all important (for them) matter of winning an argument or by snide comment's seek to deride the thoughts of fellow members, they are basically not a nice bunch at times and act like snotty kid's in a classroom.

But enough about that, Reality - you know it when you are hungry, when you are thirsty but perhaps not when you think you are in love haha.

(though I was answering you I could not resist getting my own jibes in at them so I am really no better than they at times).