Alec Baldwin SHOOTING

a reply to: SirHardHarry

CANCELLED....

My lack of being on a "SET"...

My bad...

It does not disqualify me from posting my observations on the concerted media effort to portray this as just another firearm faux pas on a movie set...

Are you trying to say that one of the costs of budget crunching is Hollywood roullette?

HOw about ZERO LIVE FIREARMS and ROUNDS on EVERY MOVIE SET ?

Folks may still perish, but it shouldn't be from an actor pulling the trigger on a PROP ?

a reply to: dollukka

Brandon Lee was an actor who was shot by an other actor for the scene in the movie. But this time a member of the film crew was shot...so..what was alex baldwin doing shooting at a member of the film crew..and not at an actor?

a reply to: JacKatMtn

It does not disqualify me from posting my observations on the concerted media effort to portray this as just another firearm faux pas on a movie set...

A) It does disqualify you if you have never been on set and don't know how set operations work and
B) It is a firearm mishap due to negligence and incompetence, as stated.

Period.

HOw about ZERO LIVE FIREARMS and ROUNDS on EVERY MOVIE SET ?

There should never , ever be live rounds on set. Ever. Or live firearms, which is why they are checked beforehand and determined to be cold before be given to an actor, and why this was a failure when it was said by the AD it was cold, but it in fact wasn't. Pay attention.

It seems Alec didn't know proper safety procedures with handling a side arm. Someone messed up bigtime. I cant imagine there would be any live rounds anywhere near a set. It must have been crimped wrong. If that was a live round, someone belongs in prison. This whole incident is a sad situation. Her family is surely grieving terribly. Her poor child and husband.

a reply to: SirHardHarry

It does disqualify you if you have never been on set and don't know how set operations work

Many of us are here to learn, and as with any learning process, we will make incorrect assumptions. I consider it the duty of those with detailed knowledge to educate the rest of us, which cannot happen if the rest of us remain silent.

It is a firearm mishap due to negligence and incompetence

Every time someone is shot it is either due to a criminal action, or "negligence and incompetence." I do not think Alec Baldwin intended to kill anyone, so there is no indication there was a criminal action involved.

TheRedneck

a reply to: SirHardHarry

Paying attention...

Laws change when you enter into the genre of film making....


this was just a tragic failure to adhere to film making protocol...


No one is at fault...

oopsie..

We pledge to do better next time....

a reply to: TheRedneck

Yeah, a cold gun is general empty, the chamber is clear. No charge of any kind, because blanks still carry a "charge".

What I don't get is, if the AD said it was cold and authorized it for use, why it would be loaded with anything (blanks) unless he was incompetent, or they were cutting corners.

I guess it's possible the blanks cold be defective, and seems a decent explanation, since it seems have happened a few times before in that production. Perhaps a shady manufacturer issue?

originally posted by: TheRedneck
a reply to: randomtangentsrme

As per this instance, early reporting is usually conjecture, so I am not willing to talk about live ammo verse expelled residue at this time.

A fair enough point.

I consider your resume impressive. I'm afraid my only stint into acting was a church play when I was in my very early teens (I played an old scrooge, took three days to get the gray outta my hair, lol). Of course, there was no gunplay involved, so the issue of gun safety on set never came up.

I do admire people who have the ability to play a wide range of roles. That one small experience taught me that it is not as easy as it looks.

I posted earlier a theory I had about a blank possibly discharging pieces of the casing. I know this can and does happen on occasion. Did you by any chance catch that post, and if so, what are your thoughts on it? I'm pretty sure the entertainment industry is using crimped blanks as opposed to wadded blanks, but I could still possibly be wrong.

TheRedneck

I know I read the post.
And I actually have a cheat to answer this with out searching to be sure I know what you posted.

My father in law has been lead Calvary off screen on a number of film productions.


As I understand your question, crimped blanks vs. wadded blanks has more to do with the type of firearms used rather than any kind of industry standard.

It deals with the time of when the fire arm was in favor.

If you are dealing with a ball shot/ single shot- Then you are dealing with a wadded shot. Which is not loaded outside of the wad, for film or theater.
Basically in this set up you have an UN-rifled barrel, the wadding (cloth) to separate the shot from the powder, and then the ball, or projectile that will travel out. In a performance setting the ball would not be used.

If you are dealing with a primer and gunpowder projectile, then you are likely dealing with a crimped blank.
In my experience, residue build up would not be an issue assuming the firearm was cleaned within two weeks. I insist my students do it nightly (during use in production).

a reply to: TheRedneck

Many of us are here to learn, and as with any learning process, we will make incorrect assumptions. I consider it the duty of those with detailed knowledge to educate the rest of us, which cannot happen if the rest of us remain silent.

Incorrect assumptions, and learning, are fine. But when one has no first firsthand knowledge but acts like he or she does, there's a problem. Not you, but just saying.

Every time someone is shot it is either due to a criminal action, or "negligence and incompetence." I do not think Alec Baldwin intended to kill anyone, so there is no indication there was a criminal action involved.

Exactly. Which is why this likely not murder but negligence and incompetence (likely not on his part). He wasn't at fault, those entrusted by industry standards who might not have been industry standards and safety protocols were at fault.

a reply to: visitedbythem

It seems Alec didn't know proper safety procedures with handling a side arm.

Actors rely on multiple layers of safety procedures before they are handed a weapon.

Those layers failed here, not Alec, or any actor.

originally posted by: SirHardHarry
a reply to: randomtangentsrme

I'm assuming the AD in your post is assistant director. Do not trust directors or assistant directors when it comes to technical elements

AD = assistant director. There are usually two on set. The first AD is generally the final on-set authority on what moves forward to ensure safety and cohesion after consulting with other department heads that it is safe to proceed depending on what is happening (stunts, grips, props, SPFX, etc).

That the AD said, supposedly, "cold weapon" is a failure on his part.

That you would listen to an AD over the newly hired stagehand is your own failure.
That you fail to understand my understanding of the industry, I can over look. Not everyone reads every post.
How are you an expert? Forgive me if I missed a post.

a reply to: randomtangentsrme

That you would listen to an AD.How are you an expert?

I am an AD.

a reply to: SirHardHarry

What I don't get is, if the AD said it was cold and authorized it for use, why it would be loaded with anything (blanks) unless he was incompetent, or they were cutting corners.

The story seems to be settling now on a single string of events, so I feel it is likely safe to assume Baldwin was told he had a "cold" gun. It seems self-evident that was not the case. So yeah, there had to be some serious safety issues and inattention going on.

I still say none of that relieves Baldwin from his responsibility to check the gun itself prior to practicing with it, but I will also agree that whoever gave him a loaded gun and whoever called out "cold gun" also bear some responsibility.

I also think it is becoming pretty evident that they were indeed cutting corners. The Union dismissal hours before the shooting attests to that.

I guess it's possible the blanks cold be defective, and seems a decent explanation, since it seems have happened a few times before in that production. Perhaps a shady manufacturer issue?

There is one problem with reloading being so available to the public: it gives rise to wanna-be professionals. A bare-bones reloading setup is pretty cheap to set up, in the range of maybe $500 for a simple batch press and assorted powder, primers, bullets, and utensils. Mine takes up a small shelf maybe three feet long and a table behind me to hold materials only when reloading.

That's fine for someone who reloads for themselves and understands safety, but too many reloaders just get a bench set up and think they can make all this extra cash in their spare time without caring about the safety aspects. I do occasionally buy reloads from certain vendors, but only those who I have confidence in.

As I stated, loading blanks is something I would not try, even with my reloading experience. The chances of creating microfractures during the crimping process is just too great and the stakes of doing so just too high. Blanks use the same casings as a regular load; the only difference is that the ends are pressed together in an accordion fashion to seal the charge long enough to make an explosion. Those casings are not made to be squeezed together; they are machined to hold a bullet of a specific diameter. Can they be safely sealed? Yes, given the proper techniques, because brass is a fairly soft and malleable metal. But that proper technique is absolutely critical!

Not to mention, I know for a fact that a lot of people do not realize the powder difference between a blank and a regular shell. It is quite substantial, and too much charge can also cause casing particles to be ejected. I usually have to inform friends quite regularly about this whenever the subject of blanks comes up.

Given all that, and the fact that by all indications this was a set that was trying to cut corners wherever they could, I think a manufacturing defect is highly probable. I would not be in the least surprised to learn that they had hired some guy from Santa Fe who was looking to make a few bucks from his new reloader instead of going with a professional.

No one should ever try to load blanks unless they are willing to test-fire (waste) a few thousand rounds to ensure they have the technique down correctly. No one should ever buy blanks from anyone they do not know for certain can load them correctly.

That's my forte.

TheRedneck

a reply to: SirHardHarry

So you are not an expert on technical understanding. I am a TD (technical director). I out rank you on everything technical. But you can allow the accident to happen.
Thank you, honestly. I understand your position so much better now.

Said with all respect.

a reply to: randomtangentsrme

So you are not an expert on technical understanding. I am a TD (technical director). I out rank you on everything technical

Cool story bro.

a reply to: TheRedneck

Theaters do not buy off brand for blanks, and I've never heard of Hollywood doing so either.
The individual you have responded to has identified themself as an Asst. Director.
They are interested in the end product. Not how to safely get us there.
Said with all respect.

a reply to: randomtangentsrme

Yes, that was my question, and thank you for the answer. Since this was obviously a revolver-style weapon, the blanks would have been crimped.

In my experience, residue build up would not be an issue assuming the firearm was cleaned within two weeks. I insist my students do it nightly (during use in production).

Residue build-up occurs more using blanks than using live ammo, primarily because the air/charge ratio changes and affects the burn rate. As I mentioned in another post, there is a substantially lower charge of powder in a blank than in a live round. That means there is more air inside the casing. The actual science of firearm round production is pretty intense, and depending on the powder used, that difference in gunpowder to air ratio can make a lot of difference in the speed of the round and how well the powder burns.

That said, yes, it would take more than two weeks for powder residue to create an issue, and I don't think even after prolonged buildup it would cause something like this to happen. That's why I haven't mentioned it. More likely, it would simply start to corrode the barrel, leading to some inaccuracy.

I am like you, though: I try to clean my guns after every session, and would be practically fanatical about it if firing blanks.

TheRedneck

a reply to: TheRedneck

I still say none of that relieves Baldwin from his responsibility to check the gun itself prior to practicing with it,

I see what you're saying, but I've not seen too many actors check for themselves, because t hey *expect* what they are given is safe for usage. And why they won't touch it until it is handed to them.

think a manufacturing defect is highly probable.

Quite probable if they needed multiple blank rounds for rehearsal and shooting, and since there appears to have been previous discharges.

a reply to: SirHardHarry

Give me your basic safety talk to your hands on a project. That's industry standard, Bro.

originally posted by: randomtangentsrme
a reply to: SirHardHarry

Give me your basic safety talk to your hands on a project. That's industry standard, Bro.

Depends on what's involved in the scene, Bro.

Guns, cars, water, fire, smoke, etc..