Alec Baldwin SHOOTING

a reply to: TomCollin

I would think depending on actors to check parts of a prop or set before each and every take would be time consuming and time is money, especially in the movie making bidness

I guess that depends on what one considers more valuable, lives or money.

TheRedneck

a reply to: TomCollin

Is there EVER a reason to have live rounds on a set?
Considering they can add sound effects in later (BANG) and also CGI in a flash from the barrel!

Also, Baldwin wasn't just an actor in this movie. He was also Producer. I wonder if he had anything to do with the lack of safety protocol that caused the union crews to walk off set. If he made decisions that cut corners, he is more than just an actor caught up in a tragic accident.

Hi all,

I've only read 13 pages so far. Sorry if this has been said before.
(My background is 25 years as a Theatrical stagehand.)

A prop gun is a non firing prop, that depending on the production, will look more or less like actual commercially available firearms.

A cap gun or blank gun is a firearm (typically with a solid or impeded barrel), that is not built to fire a projectile, but will make noise and often expel residue from the sides (revolver) and/or barrel.

A gun is the real thing. They are often used for film due to the directors and designers want of realism.
To my knowledge viable ammunition is not allowed on set.


When I was in high school, for a school play, I had to get "shot."
The theater teacher took me and my "shooter" aside, and gave us some basic "theater" firearms safety. (I was also acting as armorer/ props master for the play).

Rule one: Always assume it is a viable gun and loaded, until you prove to yourself otherwise.
Rule two: When you receive the prop (short for property), inspect it yourself.
Rule three: Never aim directly at another person. If you aim slightly upstage, or downstage (preferably upstage so as not to endanger audience) of the performer you are aiming at, the audience wont know the difference and your cast mate will be in less danger.
Rule four: Load blanks as late as you can, before the gun needs to be fired. Unload remaining blanks as soon as you can once the gun is off stage. Always load multiple blanks in case of one misfiring.


This is common practice in the professional world of theater/ cinema. I've had it reinforced throughout my academic and professional career (obviously the training is more in depth- I distilled the important and consistent training.)

As per the who is at fault argument, the answer is both the actor, and the props person who handed it off. The props person should have been sure it was loaded correctly. The actor should not have aimed at a person.

Damn shame, prayers to thoughs involved.

Camera crew on set of Alec Baldwin movie walked off prior to shooting, member says

The member of the camera crew said the issue of gun safety had been brought up, but was "brushed of repeatedly" by producers.

abc7.com...

a reply to: dollukka








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a reply to: new_here

It is also barely possible that this is union v. non-union sabotage that went wrong.

In history, it was not unheard of for dirty tactics, even dangerous ones to be used to attempt to force, enforce work environments of a certain type.

Baldwin is not necessarily known for being a nice guy, so it's not impossible that he found himself on the wrong side of his crew, they walked, and he refused to give in to their demands and decided to go outside the accepted norms and "shenanigans" ensured that turned deadly.

a reply to: randomtangentsrme

Thank you!

I am not familiar with actual theatrical sets, but I am familiar with the technology and gun safety. It's good to know this incident was not a result of something that is common in that industry.

Earlier, someone posted a report that it was indeed live rounds in the gun. I had assumed it was a bad blank prior to that, because I just did not want to believe anyone would be so ignorant of safety to even have live ammo available. Even if they wanted/needed security, any live rounds should not have fit the caliber of the guns being used on set. So far as I can tell, security commonly uses 9mm or .380, neither of which is made for a revolver and neither of which would have existed at the time this movie was set in.

As per the who is at fault argument, the answer is both the actor, and the props person who handed it off. The props person should have been sure it was loaded correctly. The actor should not have aimed at a person.

I agree completely!

TheRedneck

a reply to: dollukka
I’m not a fan of Alec Baldwin or his politics. However I do feel for him. I can only imagine how he feels. I truly hope this was an accident.

a reply to: TheRedneck

Hey Redneck.

I've worked as an IATSE stagehand in the past, and I know the industry has really started to write regulations for themselves over the last 20 years, so that other regulators do not get overly involved (due to the unique experiences we find ourselves in). I've had limited experience in TV, and virtually none in film, although I do have friends in both industries.
My experience in HS was right before I started working professionally.
I've given theatrical firearm safety instruction (and overall fight safety instruction) through all of my career. We (myself and my peers) always focus on personal comfort and safety as a priority. To the point if an actor wants to learn how to strip and rebuild the firearm (typically blank gun) I will show them how to.
None of the professionals I have worked with want to see an accident occur, either from lack of training or negligence.
More importantly, in live performance we do what is known as "fight call" before every performance. Where we rehearse every sword fight, fist fight, gun altercation, etc, before each performance (usually right before we open house- let the audience in). My understand of film is stunts/ fights are done similarly.
I cannot speak with authority about film, but I can with regards to it's older brother.

As per this instance, early reporting is usually conjecture, so I am not willing to talk about live ammo verse expelled residue at this time.

a reply to: ketsuko

Yes, the idea of sabotage occurred to me as well!

a reply to: new_here

The IATSE is the strongest entertainment union currently.
While I could see a union member possibly doing something (because bad people exist), I do not see this being a IATSE action. They hold the power in entertainment right now, I do not see them undermining their own position by willfully causing an accident.

With that said, it is interesting how quickly IATSE local 44 (props masters) made the public statement that there was no union props folk on this job.

originally posted by: olaru12
I have worked at Bonanza Creek MR on many shows in the past 20 years as an actor an crew and have seen many accidents; usually involving horses and people overestimating their abilities on riding a stupid, temperamental 1k lb. animal.

Producers will cut corners when it comes to safety of those on set. That was one of the reasons for the strike by IATSE.

how many of those horses or people killed someone with Prop Gun?

a reply to: randomtangentsrme

As per this instance, early reporting is usually conjecture, so I am not willing to talk about live ammo verse expelled residue at this time.

A fair enough point.

I consider your resume impressive. I'm afraid my only stint into acting was a church play when I was in my very early teens (I played an old scrooge, took three days to get the gray outta my hair, lol). Of course, there was no gunplay involved, so the issue of gun safety on set never came up.

I do admire people who have the ability to play a wide range of roles. That one small experience taught me that it is not as easy as it looks.

I posted earlier a theory I had about a blank possibly discharging pieces of the casing. I know this can and does happen on occasion. Did you by any chance catch that post, and if so, what are your thoughts on it? I'm pretty sure the entertainment industry is using crimped blanks as opposed to wadded blanks, but I could still possibly be wrong.

TheRedneck

Sounds like a lot of incompetence and cutting corners.

‘Rust’ crew describes on-set gun safety issues and misfires days before fatal shooting

If there was a nonunion prop master and the AD also clear the weapon, neither did their job, and it sounds like the AD was incompetent. I read somewhere some union workers had already walked off because of contract and safety issues so they hired nonunion folks. I'm curious about the AD, too, allowing these things to proceed, and especially clearing the weapon for use when it was unsafe. Incompetence.

Same type of reckless filmmaking that resulted in the death of Sarah Jones, with whom I worked, and why we prioritize safety. If the crew had multiple issues with safety concerns, according the article, including previous accidental discharges (???) and brought those concerns to the UPM and producers and it *still* happened, that negligence is on those above the line more focused meeting deadlines and saving money than crew safety.

a reply to: SirHardHarry

Appears to be a massive DEFLECTION campaign...

Oh my! so many cries from the set, highlighting the DANGER....

Fell on deaf ears....

so don't blame us when we continued to ignore normal safety regimen...

We were trying to Make FILM Magic!!!

Sorry.... after the killing WE CRIED safety !!! day late and a life short

a reply to: SirHardHarry

I'm assuming the AD in your post is assistant director. Do not trust directors or assistant directors when it comes to technical elements. They are visionary's not reality. The job of the director and AD is to get the shot. It's the hands and stunt coordinators that make sure it's safe.

a reply to: JacKatMtn

How many sets have you been on?

Like I said, see Sarah Jones.

This was a low budget film that appears have been cutting major corners at the expense of safety in order to complete the production, which is why some union members had concerns and some even left the production. No conspiracy or deflection, just incompetence and mostly negligence by those in charge.

a reply to: randomtangentsrme

I'm assuming the AD in your post is assistant director. Do not trust directors or assistant directors when it comes to technical elements

AD = assistant director. There are usually two on set. The first AD is generally the final on-set authority on what moves forward to ensure safety and cohesion after consulting with other department heads that it is safe to proceed depending on what is happening (stunts, grips, props, SPFX, etc).

That the AD said, supposedly, "cold weapon" is a failure on his part.

a reply to: SirHardHarry

I picked up on this excerpt from your link:

A source close to the union said Local 44 does not know what projectile was in the gun and clarified that “live” is an industry term that refers to a gun loaded with some material such as a blank ready for filming.

I would assume that is as opposed to a "cold gun" which contains no ammo of any kind. When i first heard about the gun being "live," to me as a layman that means it has real ammunition and is ready, willing, and able to spit lead.

That would explain the live gun without the need for live actual ammunition on the set... and it brings up my original theory on the blanks being defective. I simply cannot fathom a movie set having live revolver ammo anywhere on the set when the actors are slinging revolvers around.

TheRedneck