Stop Saying the Vaccine is CAUSING the Mutations

a reply to: TheAMEDDDoc

Yes, but they dont know what every part of the mRNA they are using does. They only know how it behaves when exposed to the variables they tested it with. This type of vaccine has never been used and we do not know what to expect. To assume we understand RNA enough to not mutate into something that can affect other things that were considered out of the realm of possibility is ignorant of history.

I love how you make the thread using your opinion but no links or anything. It’s ok we know you believe CNN is the ultimate authority.

a reply to: tanstaafl

Ever heard of superbugs that are a direct result of the overuse of antibiotics?

Yes. But resistance to antibiotics does not mean "more virulent", it means that antibiotics don't work as well against them. Staph is quite virulent but not difficult to treat. Resistant staph is not more virulent but because it is more difficult to treat it can be a real problem.

Apparently you have never heard of simple things like the concept of ADE (antibody dependent enhancement)

I've heard of it. It is a rare phenomenon, some diseases can cause it and a couple of vaccines have been known to induce it as well. It is actually a problem with the immune system in which antibodies can actually "assist" a virus in invading the hosts cells. It has nothing to do with viral mutation.

a reply to: Skepticape

I’d suggest the vaccine is some sort of “key” which unlocks or directs the next mutation which is not random, but specified or preconceived in some way.

That is not how mutation works.

a reply to: TrollMagnet

Yes, but they dont know what every part of the mRNA they are using does.

Yes they do. mRNA is a very simple molecule (not many "parts" to it) and it can only do one thing, cause ribosomes to produce the spike protein. It is not a mysterious process, the mRNA works like a stencil.

originally posted by: AcrobaticDreams
It makes you sound ignorant and hurts your cause.

Vaccines do not CAUSE mutations. It is easily provable that Delta was not caused by the vaccine. It is more correct to say that the vaccine causes one mutation to become dominant.

The mutations are caused naturally. The virus makes billions of copies and makes mistakes (mutations). This is what causes the variants. The vaccine, with its incomplete or partial immunity+leaky-ness will cause specific variants to be stopped by the vaccine induced immunity but will allow other variants to bypass that immunity and multiply in vaccinated hosts and they will spread that variant. This causes specific variants to be more dominant overall.

This is why it is NOT good to vaccinate with a leaky vaccine in the middle of a pandemic with just part of the world being vaccinated. Instead of the vaccinated halting the spread, they will halt SOME of the mutations but will let others spread which will increasingly be less like the original strain and will become more dominant. This is most likely why you are seeing Delta be the dominant strain in highly vaccinated countries. If we relied on natural immunity, you would most likely have many different strains that are out there and none are dominant because there is less SPECIFIC selective pressure with natural immunity.

When I was in college this scientist came to our class one day and spoke about his work on the flu vaccine.

He said when they vaccinate people the virus adapts to that vaccine and in a way becomes stronger.
So his job was to tweak the vaccine every year or so, tweak meaning making the vaccine a tad stronger.

Then he said after that, the virus mutates and becomes stronger, he then has to make the vaccine stronger.

He said it was a never ending battle.
And by stsying in the battle, humans are making the enemy/virus stronger

a reply to: Bloodworth

I think the scientist may have been oversimplifying it a bit.

He said when they vaccinate people the virus adapts to that vaccine and in a way becomes stronger.

But vaccines don't kill the virus so the virus cannot "adapt" to a vaccine. Vaccines prime our immune system to kill the virus. This is different from the way antibiotics work against bacteria.

Then he said after that, the virus mutates and becomes stronger, he then has to make the vaccine stronger.

Not stronger, just a bit different. Those mutations can occur just as well in someone who is not vaccinated as in someone who is.

originally posted by: Phage
a reply to: Skepticape

I’d suggest the vaccine is some sort of “key” which unlocks or directs the next mutation which is not random, but specified or preconceived in some way.

That is not how mutation works.

Where’s your data? Citation please? Is this not a novel man made virus?

What other novel virus can you cite mutation data for along with covid? Right now you’re talking out your rear end, feeling in the dark. Give me something that proves I’m wrong besides your snarky opinion.


Just pathetic

originally posted by: Phage
a reply to: Bloodworth

I think the scientist may have been oversimplifying it a bit.

He said when they vaccinate people the virus adapts to that vaccine and in a way becomes stronger.

But vaccines don't kill the virus so the virus cannot "adapt" to a vaccine. Vaccines prime our immune system to kill the virus. This is different from the way antibiotics work against bacteria.

Then he said after that, the virus mutates and becomes stronger, he then has to make the vaccine stronger.

Not stronger, just a bit different. Those mutations can occur just as well in someone who is not vaccinated as in someone who is.

I think you’re over simplifying a lot. See above

originally posted by: Phage
a reply to: TrollMagnet

Yes, but they dont know what every part of the mRNA they are using does.

Yes they do. mRNA is a very simple molecule (not many "parts" to it) and it can only do one thing, cause ribosomes to produce the spike protein. It is not a mysterious process, the mRNA works like a stencil.

I thought mra was the future of vaccines and medicine over a whole spectrum of illness, your telling us it can only make spike protein? That seems far too specialized. Interesting it’s been worked on for 30 years but can only make spike proteins for a brand new novel virus.

Or maybe you are over simplifying again

If it is a leaky vaccine that is a major problem with the vaccine….so both answers would be correct..and some people are definitely allergic to vaccines and with all of those doses of vaccinations going on worldwide there would be coverups of bad vaccines..Poison in some of the vaccines because the world is evil..Billions of dollars are made and you cannot file lawsuits against vaccine companies..So they literally can get away with anything they want.Time is against these criminals hands because they won’t be able to do these unsafe vaccines forever.
They are literally making the worst mistake in mankind history rolling out their unsafe vaccines this way killing their own companies.

Op, Why?..The "legal" part of all "the science", has already been proven. That it was a "science" created virus. Then a lot of people get a good retirement. ...
Doesn't take much of an "education" or a "title", to read dog tracks.

That is "the scientific observation", thus far.

I'm not sure of your "education level. But none of this nonsense, is rocket science to "educated" folk.....

1930's Germany.

a reply to: Skepticape

Is this not a novel man made virus?

Novel, yes. This particular version of coronavirus has not been seen in humans before. Man made, probably not.

What other novel virus can you cite mutation data for along with covid?

I'm not sure what sort of "mutation data" you are looking for but will this help? It does get into the genetics a bit.
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...

your telling us it can only make the spike protein?

For the current COVID vaccines, yes. That is all it is designed to produce because the spike protein is how SARS-COV-2 gains access to human cells.. The good news is that the same technology can be used to produce other proteins which may be able to induce the production of antibodies against other diseases.

a reply to: AcrobaticDreams

The vaccines are causing mutations...

originally posted by: Phage
Novel, yes. This particular version of coronavirus has not been seen in humans before. Man made, probably not.

Real scientists, virologists, epidemiologists, biological warfare doctors, etc disagree with you...

‘Damning’ science shows COVID-19 likely engineered in lab: experts

originally posted by: AcrobaticDreams

Vaccines do not CAUSE mutations. It is easily provable that Delta was not caused by the vaccine. It is more correct to say that the vaccine causes one mutation to become dominant.

The mutations are caused naturally. The virus makes billions of copies and makes mistakes (mutations). This is what causes the variants.

There isn't just one way that Covid mutations occur, there are many ways. And yes, Covid does mutate in reaction to vaccine-induced proteins. But let's look at a range of ways that Covid mutates.

Number 1. Mink Farms Cause Exponential Mutations to Covid Mink farms produce an exponential amount of fast mutations to Covid. Those mutations are transmissable back to humans. Mink farms HAVE ALREADY produced mutations to Covid that surpass both the vaccines and the human immune system.

As a result of mink farms producing mutations to Covid that surpass the human immune system, Denmark culled/slaughtered millions of minks to stop these mutations from spreading.

Denmark Culls 17 Million Minks over Covid Mutations

The Netherlands quarantined their mink farms and refused sale of their pelts. The United States quarantined their mink farms.

Russia denies any Covid in their mink farms which means Russia is lying and their mink furs were still sold on the market.

China denies any Covid in their mink farms which means China is lying. However, China is rumored to have slaughtered minks and other small animals from farms who's furs were sold at the markets which were rumored to be the origin of Covid. Not sure if China really slaughtered the farm animals or if their pelts were still sold.

Italy is the number 1 purchaser of China's minks. So perhaps some Covid mink furs made it to Italy in the early spread of Covid.
_____
Number 2. Weakened Immune Systems Cause More Covid Mutations

The longer that Covid remains in the human body, the more mutations occur. People with weakened immune systems retain more Covid mutations in their bodies in comparison to those with healthy immune systems where the virus is killed off more quickly.

That means Covid mutates more in areas of the world with high HIV rates, like South Africa, Lethoso, Swaziland, Zimbabwe, Rhodesia/Botswana, Namibia. Those countries had 19%-36% of their populations infected with HIV in the year 2000. Also people with HIV tend to be on medications that Covid might mutate to.

Areas of the United States with high HIV rates may also give rise to more Covid mutations.

Other people with weakened immune systems could cause Covid mutations include those taking immunosuppressants for other ailments.

And the hospitals treating Covid with the immunosuppressant tocilizumab could also generate mutations to Covid as they suppress the immune system.

Covid Mutations May Arise in People With Compromised Immune Systems
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Number 3. Covid/SARS Mutates to Antibodies and Vaccines and HERE'S HOW

It showed high immunogenicity (many antibodies isolated from patients reacted to it) and it was also implicated in antibody-dependent enhancement. That effect has been mentioned here several times; it's a major concern. Recall that this happens when antibodies bind to the virus but don't neutralize it - in some of these cases, that antibody binding actually enhances the ability of the virus to get inside the human cell, which just makes everything worse. Not only do some SARS antibodies do that in the patients that developed them, but the same problem was seen in antibodies raised after potential SARS vaccine treatment.

Science Magazine: Mutations in the Coronavirus Spike Protein

This is HOW Covid mutates in response to vaccine-induced proteins.

So in Israel where 80% of the population has received 2 or more doses of the vaccine YET 60% of those hospitalized are fully vaccinated, then this is what is happening. Antibodies bind to the Covid but don't neutralize it. Then the virus has enhanced ability to get inside human cells.

The vaccines are a sloppy shortcut. They only take a piece of the virus, the spike protein, and expect full immunity. It's NOT full immunity. Full immunity only occurs when a person has caught the WHOLE VIRUS and their immune system fights off the whole virus.

The vaccines are a sloppy shortcut game with proteins. Covid mutates quickly. Covid wants to survive. And playing sloppy shortcut games with proteins and Covid won't work. Covid mutates too quickly.

Here's an example of how fast Covid mutates.

Out of 10333 spike protein sequences analyzed, 8155 proteins comprised one or more mutations. A total of 9654 mutations were observed that correspond to 400 distinct mutation sites.

Human SARS CoV-2 spike protein mutations

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Also, said it before and I'll say it again. Delta mutation surfaced in India when vaccine trials began in India. Specifically Russia's DNA-based Sputnik vaccine began trials in India shortly before Delta surfaced. Not saying it's the cause. But vaccine trials were going on around the world in different countries. So a mutation to a vaccine in India cannot be ruled out. India rejected Russia's DNA-based Sputnik vaccine after its trials in India.

So I guess antibiotic resistant viruses didn't get that way from the populations overuse of antibiotics too?
I think you need to rethink your statement. a reply to: AcrobaticDreams

originally posted by: Phage
a reply to: tanstaafl
"Ever heard of superbugs that are a direct result of the overuse of antibiotics?"

Yes. But resistance to antibiotics does not mean "more virulent",

True, but it does mean that once treatable infections are no longer treatable - and many more people die than would have. But I'd argue that due to the fact that they are stronger, they could easily become more virulent as well.

"Apparently you have never heard of simple things like the concept of ADE (antibody dependent enhancement)"

I've heard of it. It is a rare phenomenon, some diseases can cause it

That is the 'rare' aspect, yes.

and a couple of vaccines have been known to induce it as well.

Real vaccines, yes.

These COVID jabs are entirely new. And they are not vaccines in the original meaning of the word.

They are a medical treatment, that, in spite of what many here claim, some of the inventors refer to as 'gene therapy', or 'hacking the software of life'.

It is actually a problem with the immune system in which antibodies can actually "assist" a virus in invading the hosts cells. It has nothing to do with viral mutation.

Mincing words again... I admit you're good at it...

Others disagree:
"ADE – In this scenario, the antibodies that the vaccine generated actually help the virus infect greater numbers of cells than it would have on its own. In this situation, the antibodies bind to the virus and help it more easily get into cells than it would on its own. The result is often more severe illness than if the person had been unvaccinated. ADE can occur after disease and has on occasion been identified following vaccination, as described below. Any vaccine that has been found to cause ADE has stopped being used or, more recently as described below for dengue vaccine, been recommended only for those who will not be affected by ADE. Evidence of ADE has not emerged for COVID-19 vaccines even though concerns have been raised."

I left the propaganda claim at the end so you wouldn't accuse me of leaving it out. But we all know they lie, about everything, all the time, so there is that.

So you were indeed over simplifying. The devil is in the details, not ignorant statements.. I see you have a long history of posting those.

I’ll have to check into your link- but I don’t see anything about how a novel virus presented with artificial spike proteins might respond on first glance. There are some predictable and controllable forms of mutations. Animal husbandry for one. Island species without predatory animals lose their fear and defenses, animals that live in the cold will have the ability to insulate themselves... it’s not quite as random as you are suggesting.


Understanding it’s a novel virus, that was probably not a natural evolution, it’s next stages of mutation could be directed- there’s no data on such a subject. For the covid lab in wuhan that was doing GoF research (but you think for different covid virus OK lols) how would they edit the virus? With mRNA? Are the spike proteins the vaccines stimulate our bodies to make different or the same as those produced by covid-19?

originally posted by: Phage
a reply to: Skepticape

Is this not a novel man made virus?

Novel, yes. This particular version of coronavirus has not been seen in humans before. Man made, probably not.

What other novel virus can you cite mutation data for along with covid?

I'm not sure what sort of "mutation data" you are looking for but will this help? It does get into the genetics a bit.
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...

your telling us it can only make the spike protein?

For the current COVID vaccines, yes. That is all it is designed to produce because the spike protein is how SARS-COV-2 gains access to human cells.. The good news is that the same technology can be used to produce other proteins which may be able to induce the production of antibodies against other diseases.

originally posted by: Skepticape
So you were indeed over simplifying. The devil is in the details, not ignorant statements.. I see you have a long history of posting those.

I’ll have to check into your link- but I don’t see anything about how a novel virus presented with artificial spike proteins might respond on first glance. There are some predictable and controllable forms of mutations. Animal husbandry for one. Island species without predatory animals lose their fear and defenses, animals that live in the cold will have the ability to insulate themselves... it’s not quite as random as you are suggesting.


Understanding it’s a novel virus, that was probably not a natural evolution, it’s next stages of mutation could be directed- there’s no data on such a subject. For the covid lab in wuhan that was doing GoF research (but you think for different covid virus OK lols) how would they edit the virus? With mRNA? Are the spike proteins the vaccines stimulate our bodies to make different or the same as those produced by covid-19?

originally posted by: Phage
a reply to: Skepticape

Is this not a novel man made virus?

Novel, yes. This particular version of coronavirus has not been seen in humans before. Man made, probably not.

What other novel virus can you cite mutation data for along with covid?

I'm not sure what sort of "mutation data" you are looking for but will this help? It does get into the genetics a bit.
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...

your telling us it can only make the spike protein?

For the current COVID vaccines, yes. That is all it is designed to produce because the spike protein is how SARS-COV-2 gains access to human cells.. The good news is that the same technology can be used to produce other proteins which may be able to induce the production of antibodies against other diseases.

There is a really high degree of scientific illiteracy here. So much wrong in what you've said does not give me much confidence in you.