Stop Saying the Vaccine is CAUSING the Mutations

It makes you sound ignorant and hurts your cause.

Vaccines do not CAUSE mutations. It is easily provable that Delta was not caused by the vaccine. It is more correct to say that the vaccine causes one mutation to become dominant.

The mutations are caused naturally. The virus makes billions of copies and makes mistakes (mutations). This is what causes the variants. The vaccine, with its incomplete or partial immunity+leaky-ness will cause specific variants to be stopped by the vaccine induced immunity but will allow other variants to bypass that immunity and multiply in vaccinated hosts and they will spread that variant. This causes specific variants to be more dominant overall.

This is why it is NOT good to vaccinate with a leaky vaccine in the middle of a pandemic with just part of the world being vaccinated. Instead of the vaccinated halting the spread, they will halt SOME of the mutations but will let others spread which will increasingly be less like the original strain and will become more dominant. This is most likely why you are seeing Delta be the dominant strain in highly vaccinated countries. If we relied on natural immunity, you would most likely have many different strains that are out there and none are dominant because there is less SPECIFIC selective pressure with natural immunity.

It's not like it isn't TRUE

Vaccines Could Drive The Evolution Of More COVID-19 Mutants - NPR

Mutant coronaviruses can make vaccines less effective. At the same time, vaccines can contribute to virus mutations, but this is a slow process that should be manageable.

Are Vaccines Making COVID Worse?

Even CNN has conceded that: “Vaccination alone won’t stop the rise of variants and in fact could push the evolution of strains that evade their protection, researchers warned.”

Nah, they're just killing people.

The Shedding from these vaxxs are obvious now too.

originally posted by: MetalThunder
It's not like it isn't TRUE

Vaccines Could Drive The Evolution Of More COVID-19 Mutants - NPR

Mutant coronaviruses can make vaccines less effective. At the same time, vaccines can contribute to virus mutations, but this is a slow process that should be manageable.

Are Vaccines Making COVID Worse?

Even CNN has conceded that: “Vaccination alone won’t stop the rise of variants and in fact could push the evolution of strains that evade their protection, researchers warned.”

The point of this thread is to talk about current mutations that are dominant. These are not caused by the vaccines. Vaccine induced immunity that is very specific can drive mutations, like antibiotics can however this takes a long time and there is no evidence this is happening right now. It is incorrect to say you know that mutations are being caused BY the vaccines. They are most likely selecting them to be more dominant however.

a reply to: AcrobaticDreams

Leaky vaccines increase the likelihood of more mutations occurring. This is simply because there are many more copies of the virus being produced in a population. The more reproductions of the virus, the greater the chance of mutations occurring.
If a vaccine prevents infection from occurring, the virus doesn't reproduce in the vaccinated portion of the population. The vaccines that we have available now do not prevent infection.

Funny how all the variants correlate with where Astra Zenica did trials.
for example India trials start September 2020,Indian variant delta October 2020.
Same goes for Kent,Alpha etc.
We all know correlation doesn't mean causation but when it happens four times in a row I have my suspicions.

a reply to: AcrobaticDreams

I’m old enough to remember earlier this year when NOBODY was jabbed and the virus seemed to be kinda disappearing just like trump said it would. States opening back up, getting rid of mask mandates, etc.

Then along comes the mass jab rollout. All of a sudden we have delta variant, lambda variant, mu variant, etc. Ironically enough, countries with the highest vaccination rates like Israel having the most hospitalizations.

I’m sure it’s all just a coincidence though and not by design at all.

A vaccine would make certain strains more dominant IF IF IF IF it prevents transmission. IF

a reply to: AcrobaticDreams

a reply to: AcrobaticDreams

Based on experience with childhood vaccines the chickenpox vaccinated children were able to pass around "chickenpox", year after year, to each other while the unvaccinated children were unable to catch it.

I've been expecting the new strains based on that experience. With the different vax from different companies being jabbed into people who knows what is being created by those different jabs.

I've had several immediate family members, all unvaxxed, get the Rona. Yes, they were sick. Yes, it sucked. But they all came through without any issues. They all live in different states around the US and had similar, yet different symptoms from one to the other. Much like the seasonal flu.

I've also seen first hand what happens to those with reactions to the vax. It's worse. Some only had a sore arm or a day of flu like reactions, they were lucky. I personally have seen what those severe reactions can do to someone. It's not good.

a reply to: AcrobaticDreams

Not exactly, antigenic shift, antigenic drift, recombination, and RNA editing are what cause the virus to mutate. Mutations are caused by no proofreading of RdRp like you would see with DNA polymerase, with RdRp, if it kind of fits in the closed palm site, it gets incorporated during elongation of the nascent RNA strand. Most often, those mutations are mutagenic to the proteins and they no longer function so the virus loses a critical component and dies out, being out produced by the original variant.

It’s when those mutations give the virus an edge against the original strain that it’s an issue. So if you have an immune host from a vaccine or exposure, it would go after the original variant at first while the new more virulent virus outcompetes the original. This can also happen in an immunocompromised host who is given treatment or has antibodies.

A crappy vaccine can help the virus reproduce through non neutralizing antibodies which help the virus enter antigen presenting cells and immune cells like dendritic and others that give it an additional entry site. This could drive additional mutations because it’s reproducing.

It’s doesn’t matter with a respiratory RNA virus, it’s going to mutate. I don’t know where people got the idea that vaccines are the cure all for this thing, probably our governments. All we are buying is time and slowing down the virus in our bodies until our immune cells update and incorporate novel antigen binding targets.

SARS-CoV-2 is one recombination event or a couple amino acids away, meaning one or two nucleotide changes, from being far more deadly and making our cells lose large portions of mitochondrial and IF-1 antiviral defense pathways. Now that’s weird to me, because that is just highly unlikely to naturally occur, yet there it is and it exists. It can still happen but it’s a great target for destroying tissue and letting the virus reproduce for hours or days before the body even knows it’s there.

a reply to: AcrobaticDreams

Examples of vaccine-induced enhancement of susceptibility to virus infection or of aberrant viral pathogenesis have been documented for infections by members of different virus families. Several mechanisms, many of which still are poorly understood, are at the basis of this phenomenon. Vaccine development for lentivirus infections in general, and for HIV/AIDS in particular, has been little successful. Certain experimental lentiviral vaccines even proved to be counterproductive: they rendered vaccinated subjects more susceptible to infection rather than protecting them. For vaccine-induced enhanced susceptibility to infection with certain viruses like feline coronavirus, Dengue virus, and feline immunodeficiency virusproved to be counterproductive: they rendered vaccinated subjects more susceptible to infection rather than protecting them. For vaccine-induced enhanced susceptibility to infection with certain viruses like feline coronavirus, Dengue virus, and feline immunodeficiency virus, it has been shown that antibody-dependent enhancement (ADE) plays an important role. Other mechanisms may, either in the absence of or in combination with ADE, be involved. Consequently, vaccine-induced enhancement has been a major stumble block in the development of certain flavi-, corona-, paramyxo-, and lentivirus vaccines. Also recent failures in the development of a vaccine against HIV may at least in part be attributed to induction of enhanced susceptibility to infection. There may well be a delicate balance between the induction of protective immunity on the one hand and the induction of enhanced susceptibility on the other. The present paper reviews the currently known mechanisms of vaccine-induced enhancement of susceptibility to virus infection or of aberrant viral pathogenesis.

more

Vaccines do not CAUSE mutations.

a reply to: AcrobaticDreams

Your right Vaccines don't cause mutations .

Interesting thing is The Covid-19 " Vaccine " isn't actually a vaccine .

So I implore you to continue your research

a reply to: loveguy

It’s true, but I wouldn’t include flaviviruses or retroviruses/lentiviruses in a comparison with coronavirus. I guess it’s good for ADE though, Coronas are really good at using it against the host in natural infections.

With a flavivirus if you have an antibody against any of them, then you can potentially get ADE with exposure to any other flavivirus. So you have Dengue, get immune, then get Zika, that could be a problem or vice versa. They’re kind of weirdos, but have some odd conserved regions that confuse our immune cells for a little bit plus they reorganize structures to get into the brain.

Retroviruses and Lentiviruses are like the borg, constantly changing and evolving. Plus, they incorporate their genome differently in each cell they infect, really hard to treat. Then they change and use host mechanisms against the immune system including host derived camouflage.

originally posted by: MetalThunder
It's not like it isn't TRUE

Vaccines Could Drive The Evolution Of More COVID-19 Mutants - NPR

Mutant coronaviruses can make vaccines less effective. At the same time, vaccines can contribute to virus mutations, but this is a slow process that should be manageable.

Are Vaccines Making COVID Worse?

Even CNN has conceded that: “Vaccination alone won’t stop the rise of variants and in fact could push the evolution of strains that evade their protection, researchers warned.”

just took one yesterday and it reactivated my covid. Apparently they didnt test me before the shot. So now i cant tatse,hurt all over,and feel like im gonna spew.

originally posted by: yuppa

originally posted by: MetalThunder
It's not like it isn't TRUE

Vaccines Could Drive The Evolution Of More COVID-19 Mutants - NPR

Mutant coronaviruses can make vaccines less effective. At the same time, vaccines can contribute to virus mutations, but this is a slow process that should be manageable.

Are Vaccines Making COVID Worse?

Even CNN has conceded that: “Vaccination alone won’t stop the rise of variants and in fact could push the evolution of strains that evade their protection, researchers warned.”

just took one yesterday and it reactivated my covid. Apparently they didnt test me before the shot. So now i cant tatse,hurt all over,and feel like im gonna spew.

Well that sucks. Hopefully it goes away quickly as they have said it would, but doesn't sound like it made the symptoms any less for you.

originally posted by: Vasa Croe

originally posted by: yuppa

originally posted by: MetalThunder
It's not like it isn't TRUE

Vaccines Could Drive The Evolution Of More COVID-19 Mutants - NPR

Mutant coronaviruses can make vaccines less effective. At the same time, vaccines can contribute to virus mutations, but this is a slow process that should be manageable.

Are Vaccines Making COVID Worse?

Even CNN has conceded that: “Vaccination alone won’t stop the rise of variants and in fact could push the evolution of strains that evade their protection, researchers warned.”

just took one yesterday and it reactivated my covid. Apparently they didnt test me before the shot. So now i cant tatse,hurt all over,and feel like im gonna spew.

Well that sucks. Hopefully it goes away quickly as they have said it would, but doesn't sound like it made the symptoms any less for you.

the worst thing is the stomach aches and wanting to spew. And spitting up bile sucks.

originally posted by: AcrobaticDreams
It makes you sound ignorant and hurts your cause.

Vaccines do not CAUSE mutations. It is easily provable that Delta was not caused by the vaccine. It is more correct to say that the vaccine causes one mutation to become dominant.

The mutations are caused naturally. The virus makes billions of copies and makes mistakes (mutations). This is what causes the variants. The vaccine, with its incomplete or partial immunity+leaky-ness will cause specific variants to be stopped by the vaccine induced immunity but will allow other variants to bypass that immunity and multiply in vaccinated hosts and they will spread that variant. This causes specific variants to be more dominant overall.

This is why it is NOT good to vaccinate with a leaky vaccine in the middle of a pandemic with just part of the world being vaccinated. Instead of the vaccinated halting the spread, they will halt SOME of the mutations but will let others spread which will increasingly be less like the original strain and will become more dominant. This is most likely why you are seeing Delta be the dominant strain in highly vaccinated countries. If we relied on natural immunity, you would most likely have many different strains that are out there and none are dominant because there is less SPECIFIC selective pressure with natural immunity.

The ability to rapidly mutate is why we have an annual flu vax and none for the common cold. Natural immunity does nothing to stop a cold. Most people get one once a year at the least.

a reply to: BrujaRebooted
Are you sure that's correct?
Do you mean you can not have a natural immune response to the same strain of a common cold?

a reply to: AcrobaticDreams

So what you are saying is the vaccine isn't causing mutations but it is enabling more mutated strains to spread?

These mutated strains have a much higher chance of bypassing the vaccines, causing an actual infection instead of just being 'carried' by a vaccinated person.

Makes sense to me, I'm not aware of anyone claiming the vaccine causes mutations within the virus, as you said evolution/mistakes happen with viruses.

However I'd argue strongly that vaccinations plus the opening back up of societies IS causing mutations and new strains that have a much higher potential of affecting the vaccinated and obviously the unvaccinated.

Even the people who live under rocks can see how governments are creating 2nd class citizens over these vaccines, why? This piss poor plan and mass roll out was always going to fail.

They could have isolated the vulnerable a long time ago, they should have kept them isolated and vaccinated them. The rest I'm truly unsure about yet it strikes me that herd immunity nor a working immunity via vaccine are possible outcomes regardless of what we do.

Covid is here to stay.