Emergency Services respond to a 'Significant and Serious Incident in Plymouth UK

a reply to: Boadicea

Well if im wrong about the hating men part i offer up my sincere apologies Boadicea.

Im sticking to my guns with the rest of my assessment.

And at the end of the day the body count included both sex Boadicea as has been plainly pointed out to you a few times now.

Nobody playing dumb, simply explaining the way i understand the situation, to the best of the knowledge i posses on the matter.

The guy was a nut job that hated people not just woman, and thats the fact of the matter.

No point trying to turn this in to something other than it is.

originally posted by: andy06shake
a reply to: Boadicea

Well if im wrong about the hating men part i offer up my sincere apologies Boadicea.

Yes, you are wrong about me hating men, and I graciously accept your gracious apology.

I have been happily married to the same man for two-thirds of my life. My son is my joy and inspiration (as is my daughter!). My father was an amazing man that I have much respect and admiration for. I have awesome brothers, uncles, cousins, friends, etc. I have been blessed to know and love -- and be loved! -- many good men. Hence the reason I know craptastic men when I see them, and DO NOT want them lumped together. The incels of the world cannot be allowed to hide behind the good men of the world.

Im sticking to my guns with the rest of my assessment.

And at the end of the day the body count included both sex Boadicea as has been plainly pointed out to you a few times now.

Nobody playing dumb, simply explaining the way i understand the situation, to the best of the knowledge i posses on the matter.

The guy was a nut job that hated people not just woman, and thats the fact of the matter.

No point trying to turn this in to something other than it is.

If your point is that violent crimes against men and women are equally vile and deserve equal treatment, then I agree.

If your point is that violent crimes against men and women are currently treated equally, then I vehemently disagree.

Which brings me back to my original point in that law enforcement's lax treatment of crimes against women and girls is a big problem currently being addressed and debated in the UK.

a reply to: Boadicea

Where im from Boadicea, and its not the best of places where domestic abuse is concerned.

The Sheriffs take rather a hard stance where Men hitting there partners is the reason you end up in court Monday morning, especially so in this day of age.

More chance of walking away or being bailed from the likes of a Man on Man serious assault than there is of assault involving domestic abuse.

You wont get bailed to the same address, put it that way.

The sentences for the likes of rape they hand out can be rather pathetic, so there is that.

As to points, well on this occasion this is about drug addled nutters with shot guns that shoot people including there own mother and a wee 3 year old lassie, and not so much men hating woman, if thats what you choose to call the lad.

a reply to: Boadicea

And your whataboutism is ridiculous.

Yes I know.

Nearly as ridiculous as your assertion that the Sarah Everard murder was an example of the rampant misogynism in the UK police force.

It wasn't.
It was a evil, sick scumbag who murdered a woman and he just happened to be a police officer.
99.99% of coppers don't murder woman.

Yes, there was a series of failings, for various reasons.....none of them being misogyny.

Personally I hope the piece of crap gets tortured every single day of his sentence....unfortunately he'll probably be protected and spend his time in jail on the nonce wing - a topic for another time and place I think.

I'm not saying that there aren't misogynist police officers, I'm sure their numbers will reflect their numbers in society in general.
And yes, they need to be rooted out.....but its not as endemic as you seem to be implying.

Yes, many women say their accusations aren't taken seriously blah blah blah.
I know they are.

I've done a lot of door work over the years, at one time I even had my own security firm.
The single hardest part of the job is dealing with women, by far.

Nearly every single doorman, security officer, CPO etc I know has been accused by women of various offences.
Every single complaint was investigated thoroughly by the police and the alleged perpetrators grilled and interrogated with zeal.
In every single case bar one the allegations were either found to be groundless or the accuser dropped the case.

It is an absolute nightmare dealing with young, drunken women who see offence in anything and everything who feel they have every right to verbally and sometimes even physically abuse people with impunity.

Yet the police HAVE to investigate their accusations thoroughly.

That is a FACT and I defy anyone to prove me wrong.

Unfortunately sometimes the police are simply incompetent.
And when they are it can have devastating affects, like in this instance.

The fact that this complete whacko could get anywhere near owning a legal gun was down to the police not doing their job and not due to misogynist, women hating police officers.

Priti Patel says

I've known quite a few appalling Home Secretary's over the years....Priti Patel is a particularly poor one who seems quite duplicitous and nefarious by nature.
I don't put much stock in anything she has to say.

I don't disagree; but hate itself isn't the biggest problem; the hate is only the motivation for the violence against women of all ages. The violence is the biggest problem,.....

Take the hate away and there wouldn't be the associated violence.

.... compounded by a lack of will to address it and stop it. Mental health plays a part in that, but so does deterrence and repercussions for violent actions.

I agree 100% with all of that.
We need far tougher sentences and jail needs to be HARD.

Far too much emphasis is put on rehabilitation and far too little on punishment.

People can hate whoever they want but that does not justify or excuse violence against them.

Of course people are free to hate etc.....but shouldn't we be asking why so many people are consumed with hatefulness of one sort or another?
What's wrong with our society that so many people feel that way?

a reply to: andy06shake

I'll just call the lad a very sick little puppy who is facing his own Judgment Day right now.

But we -- society as a whole -- seems to be getting sicker too, and we can't fix it if we don't acknowledge it. Both the big picture and all the whys and wherefores that create the totality of circumstance.

a reply to: andy06shake

Looks like Lurch could have ripped their heads off without the shotgun if we are honest.

Indeed.

Big boy, and speed and steroids are never a good mix.

Just fuels the anger and paranoia....a proven recipe for disaster.

Giving that back a pump action shotgun is pretty darn mental bordering on belligerent misconduct.

I'd suggest criminally negligent.
Perhaps carpy could help us out there?

If i had signed off on that one i would be asking myself some serious questions.

Absolutely wracked with guilt....and rightly so.

a reply to: Boadicea

Far as i can establish Boadicea he seems to have judged himself, #ebag little git was not willing to face the music nor any justice in this world.

And if there is any in the next i can only imagine it not going to go in his favour.

Never going to get a perfect society Boadicea because we are such an imperfect animal.

Don't mean we should not strive towards a measure of equality and quality of life all the same.

We can do better put it that way.

a reply to: Freeborn

I have the strong feeling that we agree more than we disagree, but I also strongly feel some defensiveness that precludes you from calling a spade a spade. Namely, that misogyny is a problem -- not the only problem and not the biggest problem, but it is a significant problem -- and that it is not identified nor addressed properly.

I agree that there are some craptastic women out there too, who can and will lie and accuse and make trouble for men who have done nothing wrong. But the reason they are too often believed is because there are craptastic men who do commit those dirty deeds.

As far as the quality of law enforcement in Britain, until facts tell me otherwise, I assume it's similar to here, where the vast majority of cops are good and honorable people. Relatively speaking, the handful of bad cops are usually found in bad departments where the rot starts at the top. Good departments don't keep bad cops, so the bad cops all find their way to the bad departments that not only tolerate bad behavior, but often reward it... and punish the whistleblowers. I expect it's much the same in Britain.

Having said all of this, it is an issue in Britain, one which has received enough attention and backlash that an official government inquiry to the issue was re-opened after the Everard case, and multiple women's advocacy groups are raising hell about. These women have legitimate concerns. Blowing off these concerns only empowers and encourages those violent misogynists and incels that do want to harm women. They are out there, and they make their violent wants and tendencies very clear. They chose their targets. They have declared their targets. They need to be told "NO!" loud and clear. That shouldn't be a problem.

originally posted by: Freeborn
a reply to: andy06shake

Looks like Lurch could have ripped their heads off without the shotgun if we are honest.

Indeed.

Big boy, and speed and steroids are never a good mix.

Just fuels the anger and paranoia....a proven recipe for disaster.

Giving that back a pump action shotgun is pretty darn mental bordering on belligerent misconduct.

I'd suggest criminally negligent.
Perhaps carpy could help us out there?

If i had signed off on that one i would be asking myself some serious questions.

Absolutely wracked with guilt....and rightly so.

I don't know enough about the circumstances to offer an opinion on that. Sounds like typical Plod though

originally posted by: andy06shake
a reply to: Boadicea

Far as i can establish Boadicea he seems to have judged himself, #ebag little git was not willing to face the music nor any justice in this world.

That is so true. He pronounced judgment on himself, but blamed everyone else.

And if there is any in the next i can only imagine it not going to go in his favour.

He probably won't get what he wants or expects... but I do have faith he'll get what he needs.

Never going to get a perfect society Boadicea because we are such an imperfect animal.

Don't mean we should not strive towards a measure of equality and quality of life all the same.

We can do better put it that way.

a reply to: Boadicea

I hope it doesn't seem as if I am casually dismissing misogyny or trivialising domestic abuse or sex crimes.

I think sex crimes are amongst the most heinous of crimes and personally I would life off anyone found guilty of committing one, no second chances.

There can never be any excuse for domestic abuse and whilst I suspect it is on the decrease I acknowledge it is still a problem and every effort should be taken to severely punish those who think its ok to beat women.

Yes, misogyny exists and Incels seem to be a relatively new and rather sad yet worrying type of women haters.
But its not as widespread as many would have you believe.

I'm sure a lot of the concerns expressed by women's advocacy groups are valid and need addressing.
But I can't help but notice that a lot of the woman involved with these groups also associate with organisations like Black Lives Matter and LGBTQ+ groups.....and that sort of detracts from their message as important that it is.

The guy who killed these people was simply a nasty person and his delusions and problems were exacerbated by his use of steroids and speed.
That he got anywhere near a legal gun given UK gun laws truly beggars belief and someone has to be held accountable.

a reply to: Freeborn

Unfortunately domestic abuse actually shot up due to lockdowns, for obvious reasons.

There is an investigation going on into how this PoS got his gun and licence back.

There does not seem to be any great demand here for tougher gun laws, much to the disappointment of our US friends. Just proper enforcement of our existing ones.

Thank God he didn't have an AR.

a reply to: Freeborn

But I can't help but notice that a lot of the woman involved with these groups also associate with organisations like Black Lives Matter and LGBTQ+ groups.....and that sort of detracts from their message as important that it is.

I understand what you're saying. I think that's starting to implode on itself these days though. All the intersectionalism -- which is really just assigning teams for the Victim Olympics -- was never sustainable, as every team wants to be the biggest victim which makes them the biggest winner somehow, and now they are turning on each other. Especially in Feminism with a capitol "F". That's a whole 'nother thread though. But, yes, I know what you mean.

The guy who killed these people was simply a nasty person and his delusions and problems were exacerbated by his use of steroids and speed.

Agreed -- but also the online incel communities that he was a part of, which encouraged and promoted exactly this hate and behavior.

That he got anywhere near a legal gun given UK gun laws truly beggars belief and someone has to be held accountable.

That was a big surprise to me as well. I did not know British law allowed for anyone to legally possess a firearm. That it was taken and then returned was an even bigger shock. I would think this tragedy will at least lead to more thorough and robust scrutiny of social media and such in the future before allowing/returning someone to have a firearm.

a reply to: Boadicea

I read a report that the police said they'd failed to look at his online activity because they thought it was 'an invasion of his privacy' despite their legal requirements to do everything to assess his state of mind etc.
And its quite ironic really considering that a handful of people have been prosecuted for relatively innocuous posts on social media sites.

I think you're probably right about the online support and encouragement he'd received from these Incel sites.
If proven could a case be made for prosecuting them?

Again, carpy may be able to help us with the legalities of that?

I hope you're right about these interest groups fracturing.
I've certainly seen some in-fighting.
Let's hope it spreads through the whole woke spectrum and cancel culture etc as well.

I know its wikipedia but this article gives a good explanation of UK gun control laws.
en.wikipedia.org...

The most relevant part relating to this story is the 'Licensing of Firearms' section particularly;

To obtain a firearm certificate, the police must be satisfied that a person has "good reason" to own each firearm, and that they can be trusted with it "without danger to the public safety or to the peace". Under Home Office guidelines, Firearm Certificates are only issued if a person has legitimate sporting, collecting, or work-related reasons for ownership. Since 1968, self-defence has not been considered a valid reason to own a firearm.[43] The current licensing procedure involves: positive verification of identity, two referees of verifiable good character who have known the applicant for at least two years (and who may themselves be interviewed and/or investigated as part of the certification), approval of the application by the applicant's own family doctor, an inspection of the premises and cabinet where firearms will be kept and a face-to-face interview by a Firearms Enquiry Officer (FEO) also known as a Firearms Liaison Officer (FLO). A thorough background check of the applicant is then made by Special Branch on behalf of the firearms licensing department. Only when all these stages have been satisfactorily completed will a licence be issued, which must be renewed every 5 years

Even given what relatively little we know of the man and his history I really can't see how his shotgun could have been returned if people had simply done what they were supposed to do.

a reply to: Oldcarpy2

Unfortunately domestic abuse actually shot up due to lockdowns, for obvious reasons.

Now you've mentioned that I sort of remember reading that not so long ago.
Yes, for obvious reasons....but still not acceptable.

There is an investigation going on into how this PoS got his gun and licence back.

Do you think it will be open, honest and transparent and do you think they'll just find a convenient scapegoat and hang him/her out to dry?

There does not seem to be any great demand here for tougher gun laws, much to the disappointment of our US friends. Just proper enforcement of our existing ones.

Exactly.
And that's one of the most annoying aspects of this case; if the law had been enforced and procedure followed this would probably have never happened.

It was so avoidable.

To be fair, many of the usual suspects who I thought would have been ranting and raving about The Second Amendment and 'if only you wimps had guns' etc have been conspicuous by their absence....up till now.

Thank God he didn't have an AR.

Indeed.

a reply to: Freeborn


Am a bit busy with w#rk at the mo but you might find this of interest:

"Gross Negligence Manslaughter | The Crown Prosecution Service" www.cps.gov.uk...

originally posted by: Freeborn
a reply to: Oldcarpy2

Unfortunately domestic abuse actually shot up due to lockdowns, for obvious reasons.

Now you've mentioned that I sort of remember reading that not so long ago.
Yes, for obvious reasons....but still not acceptable.

There is an investigation going on into how this PoS got his gun and licence back.

Do you think it will be open, honest and transparent and do you think they'll just find a convenient scapegoat and hang him/her out to dry?

There does not seem to be any great demand here for tougher gun laws, much to the disappointment of our US friends. Just proper enforcement of our existing ones.

Exactly.
And that's one of the most annoying aspects of this case; if the law had been enforced and procedure followed this would probably have never happened.

It was so avoidable.

To be fair, many of the usual suspects who I thought would have been ranting and raving about The Second Amendment and 'if only you wimps had guns' etc have been conspicuous by their absence....up till now.

Thank God he didn't have an AR.

Indeed.

Don't fret, they'll be along soon enough.....

a reply to: Freeborn

I read a report that the police said they'd failed to look at his online activity because they thought it was 'an invasion of his privacy' despite their legal requirements to do everything to assess his state of mind etc.
And its quite ironic really considering that a handful of people have been prosecuted for relatively innocuous posts on social media sites.

Ironic and infuriating. Not using someone's preferred pronouns on social media gets you a visit from police. Saying that trans women are not women gets you a visit from police. Stating biological males don't belong in women's bathrooms gets you a visit from police. But it's an invasion of privacy when it's a known reported violent offender who wants his gun back.

I certainly hope that's changed.

Even given what relatively little we know of the man and his history I really can't see how his shotgun could have been returned if people had simply done what they were supposed to do.

Thank you for the link and specific statute -- that really is mind boggling. It would have been bad enough if it was just one or two items on the list. But he should have failed on every count. Or perhaps it's more appropriate to say the police failed on every count.

a reply to: Oldcarpy2

Cheers mate.

I started off ever so well.....but then the legalese sort of kicked in and my eyes started glazing over.

I know its your job etc but how you can read such tomes and understand and absorb it all really is quite impressive.
Maybe if I'd started doing it at a relatively young age I'd find it easier.

From what I could make out Gross Negligent Manslaughter wouldn't be applicable because although the relevant person may well have been negligent there was however no Duty of Care specific to any of the victims.

a reply to: Freeborn

Mostly.

Must admit my eyes glaze over too sometimes but you just learn to sort out the relevant bits.

Pretty much like when I'm on here.