Female Students filed a discrimination complaint over transgender competition

a reply to: SleeperHasAwakened

The Olympic governing body already tried that by setting an official testosterone level that women were required to be under, including/especially transwomen for one year before being eligible for competition. The problem is that the recent science I linked to and keep referring back to has discovered that even after that long on artificially low levels of testosterone, transwomen still maintain significant biological advantages because of being biological males. It's marked in sports that measure head to head gross physicality like track and field, but even more pronounced when you get into sports like tennis.

So do you not see the female to male being ok playing in male sports? How do you not see the discrimination, when all people are treated equal. Equality and not discrimination. Period. Unity and not segregation.

This conspiracy anyhow is worse than flat earth as there would be 1000's of super famous female trans athletes that would be household names dominating 1000's of women's professional sports and there is actually none.

Totally bogus and hateful.

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: SleeperHasAwakened

The Olympic governing body already tried that by setting an official testosterone level that women were required to be under, including/especially transwomen for one year before being eligible for competition. The problem is that the recent science I linked to and keep referring back to has discovered that even after that long on artificially low levels of testosterone, transwomen still maintain significant biological advantages because of being biological males. It's marked in sports that measure head to head gross physicality like track and field, but even more pronounced when you get into sports like tennis.

Olympic level competition is a different ball of wax. I remember the controversy you mentioned about certain women who seemed to simply have incredibly high levels of natural testosterone due to some uncommon genetic condition.

This case was the most prominent one IIRC.

So much doping and PED use occurs at that level, even among females, that the governing bodies must enforce strict rules about body chemistry. Even if ... I guess people of indeterminate/in-between gender? (are they considered a hermaphrodite)... compete in women's sports, the other women are not going to sit idly by while that person wins all the events. They will do whatever it takes to put themselves on an equal playing field, and that means taking steroids, HGH, etc. to reach competitive parity. I think the regulatory bodies are aware of this and don't want to see a PED "arms race" among women to try to artificially supplement themselves just to keep up with anomalous individuals that are part female/part male.

Maybe the best thing is to let these individuals actually supplement their testosterone levels and compete as males? That way they are still allowed to compete, but don't have any intrinsic advantages over their competitors.

originally posted by: game over man
So do you not see the female to male being ok playing in male sports? How do you not see the discrimination, when all people are treated equal. Equality and not discrimination. Period. Unity and not segregation.

This conspiracy anyhow is worse than flat earth as there would be 1000's of super famous female trans athletes that would be household names dominating 1000's of women's professional sports and there is actually none.

Totally bogus and hateful.

I'm not sure I understand your question, or it was even directed to me?

Are you asking if I think biologically born females who "identify"? "transition"? to male should be permitted to participate in male sporting competition? If that's the case, I have no problem with it. Knock yourself out. Even if a non-trans women is proficient enough to compete against males (we're talking age parity here, and in high school or above sports), I see no issue with it. I wish that person the best of luck.

I have problems with the inverse, biological males "identifying"/"transitioning" to females, and participating in female competitive sports, particularly sports requiring a high degree of physical strength/speed/endurance. To me, this is unfair, purely for biological reasons. Not going to spend time delving into the demographics/science of this, as it should be a fairly straight-forward thought exercise.

The other thing is cis male athletes are way better than trans female athletes, not even close. So this conspiracy just gets more ridiculous.

A teenager taking estrogen is not going to improve their athletic skills either.

While there are some "famous trans athletes" if you Google search, but they're only famous because the issue people have with them simply being Trans, which is discrimination. There's very little support for current trans athletes.

The whole conversation is about discrimination against Trans people, in a legal sense. That group of people is being discriminated against, clearly, all the time.

Republicans think there's female trans superstars whom no one has ever heard of, who have been secretly training in the shadows to enter competitive sports once the laws pass. Because to them, trans people are the boogey man.

a reply to: SleeperHasAwakened

So male trans are ok but female trans no, that is discrimination, from a country with decades of discrimination laws that have been abolished. So that's what's up.

You say that male to female trans competing with females is an unfair advantage but where are the examples? Is this happening right now in any pro sports? The sports I follow the cis females are accelerating at an amazing rate coming close to the ability of cis males. Trans people are getting press but they're a minority group and a non-factor in being goats. That's real talk.

Trans athletes don't pose a threat to cis athletes. The threat is the discrimination against Trans athletes.

a reply to: game over man

They can but they're going to have the same problems that women have breaking into all-male sports.

You can juice a woman with testosterone all you want but she's not going to overcome her innate biology enough to be a man and compete with elite men. Ask yourself why none of the East German women athletes ever competed head to head against men even though they doped with testosterone for years, so much so that they looked like men. It let them dominate women's competitions, but they weren't out running against the best men.

I would imagine that if the men retain their physical advantage even after a year of depressed testosterone levels, the women similarly aren't magically going to make up their disadvantage after a year of artificially elevated testosterone levels.

a reply to: game over man

I have no idea what a "cis" male or female is, so I am not really understanding what point you're making here. Is this a term referring to chromosomes/biology, or about how a person identifies themselves socially? Maybe you can explain that term so some of us not in the know can better comprehend your argument.

originally posted by: SleeperHasAwakened
a reply to: game over man

I have no idea what a "cis" male or female is, so I am not really understanding what point you're making here. Is this a term referring to chromosomes/biology, or about how a person identifies themselves socially? Maybe you can explain that term so some of us not in the know can better comprehend your argument.

It's a denigrating term for those of us who are normal.

originally posted by: ketsuko

They can but they're going to have the same problems that women have breaking into all-male sports.

You can juice a woman with testosterone all you want but she's not going to overcome her innate biology enough to be a man and compete with elite men. Ask yourself why none of the East German women athletes ever competed head to head against men even though they doped with testosterone for years, so much so that they looked like men. It let them dominate women's competitions, but they weren't out running against the best men.

I would imagine that if the men retain their physical advantage even after a year of depressed testosterone levels, the women similarly aren't magically going to make up their disadvantage after a year of artificially elevated testosterone levels.

I think the issue is, there are many people in society that don't have a grasp on qualitative assessment of raw physical capability, probably due to not very much experience in competitive sports. You have apparently competed in athletics at a high level, so you probably get it more than others. That's probably the barrier that is proving difficult to convince some people why letting biological males compete against biological females, post-puberty, is not a fair proposition.

a reply to: SleeperHasAwakened

In track, the men's and women's teams often practice at the same time, so you have a pretty good idea of what everyone else is capable of.

Even now, where I am in the martial arts, the class practices together, men and women, but we generally do most partner work gender segregated for good reason. I'm in pretty solid shape still, and there are maybe a couple of the younger guys who are in poorer shape that I might be able to stand up to in some measures, but most of the guys in that class are going to outclass me in most every way no matter how much effort I put into it.

a reply to: ketsuko

I was pretty much a nobody, in terms of collegiate sports, barely able to draw interest from a few recruiters from Division 3 football schools. In my prime, mid-to-late-twenties, I could bench press about 300lbs, sprint 40 yard dash in about 4.8 seconds, run 2 miles in about 12:28, dunk a basketball (about 6'1" tall). These are slightly above average measurables, at best, nothing special at all, not even enough to draw interest from Division 2 football programs.

When you line those measurables up against comparably aged female athletes.... where do they fall on the Standard Distribution? 90th percentile? 95th percentile?

Again, I think some people engaging in this debate lack the proper context to understand the real physical gulf that exists between genders, and why "identifying" yourself as this or that doesn't change the laws of physics.

And this is the world my poor kids inherit?
a reply to: JAGStorm

No examples of actual trans athletes who pose a threat. Just an idea, hence the boogey man discrimination.

The election was fair and square.
The case is closed.
You were happy to vote for Joe because you hated Trump.

So if your daughter loses out on her track scholarship to another young lady who just so happens to have a penis...

I don’t want to hear it, ESPECIALLY if you voted for Joe.

originally posted by: game over man
No examples of actual trans athletes who pose a threat. Just an idea, hence the boogey man discrimination.

There have been plenty of examples. There is a cyclist who crushes the women. There are weight lifting records being broken by wide margins by transwomen who compete against women. Two boys compete against the girls in Connecticut indoor and outdoor high school track and field. At last report, neither of them had even begun to transition in any real way. They just "felt" feminine and said they identified that way, so they were in the girls' field.

Fallon Fox, a transwoman in MMA, literally destroyed the face of her competitor in her match in about 2 mins causing serious facial fractures.

There's a volleyball player on Brazilian team who again gives her team an enormous competitive advantage.