The Anti-Christian conspiracy

Originally posted by jake1997
Why are so many people soo anti christian?

Great Thread jake1997 ! You are absolutely right when it comes to the slammers of christianity hi jacking all of the christian threads. A christian will place his topic of discussion and BAM here come the bashers !

It only showes the weekness of the world as a whole. People are afraid of what they don't or can't comprehend.

Just remember that God didn't create everyone to obtain everlasting life in heaven. He did create individuals that are damned. As we all where born into sin. I know that the non-beleivers will be up in arms over this statement but I didn't say it, God did.

He didn't create each and every person as a robot to automatically serve Him. He could of easily have done this !

But He the Lord Jesus wants us to Get on our Knees and swallow our earthly pride and ask for forgivness and pick up our cross and follow Him.

Also remember that there are also the chosen the pre-destined and the ones that come onto Him.

Satan influences this world and the people in it to acheive his agenda which is to destroy christainity. He uses those as pawns and leaves their souls to burn.

Just as God uses His own children to acheive His agenda. We as christians are all apart of Gods agenda. By us spreading the gospel to all ends of the earth His promises will be fullfilled and He will return once again for the last time to gather His children.

Well - I think that I stirred up enough. Just crusie around on the site and you can see on any topic of religion- christianity gets brought up even though Christainty is not a religion and they start slamming the believers.

Have Fun and Stay Faithful !

Your Brother,

The Truthisoutthere

thelibra

Hmmm... Donkey, you raise an interesting counterpoint, and you provide a good case for it, however, I'm not fully convinced that it still justifies the overuse of the crucifix in the Catholic traditions. (EDIT) I had a full post here to back up why, but out of respect for the trying time our Catholic members are currently facing, I went ahead and erased it. I'd rather not attack Catholicism while their Pope is in the process of passing to the next world. Out of respect for their troubles, I'd like to table this until John Paul II either stabilizes, or moves on.

Hello libra,

You are right in your kindness towards those who sorrow for the loss of their leader. When we lose respect for others we have none for ourselves.
So I will respond genteelly, so you may ponder my words, without either of us, throwing blows.
Thank you for you civil and clear thinking response to my post, so many in this world cling to opinion, rather than reason. Even, if they are shown to be in error they will continue, unfettered. The very fact that you considered the point raised, saw its validness as a point is much appreciated, whether or not you agree with the entire cause, you should be an example for all, in this regard. Socrates said "The sign of and educated mind is to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." Well done, my friend, may I be so wise in life. In fact I am so overjoyed to find someone of a clear mind, I welcome your challenges, as you will be able to show any flaws in my thinking or at least explanations. As reason and freewill are closely related, your reason shows your mind is not bound in shackles and irons, therefore neither is your soul prisoner of your mind.

An idol by definition is a reflection of the source. Example the image you see it the mirror is not really you, but your idol.
Idolatry, is when people worship creation rather than the Creator. So you are correct that when a symbol of faith is worshiped as if it contained the Creator this is in error.

So man is left with three choices, have no symbols of faith at all. Two worship the symbols of faith as if they contain God, or lastly have symbols of faith to help us worship God.
When a Christian sees a cross on a hill, he does not think of the greatness of wood, or shapes but the Lords love of man. What could be wrong with this? Nothing of course
It would be like, when a wife sees her husband in mirror, and her heart is filled with love for him. Error is would be obvious; she would run to the mirror, thinking it contained her husband. How many wives and husbands now separated from each other, by the war, look at the pictures of the loved ones daily, and miss them, some will look deeply into the picture, kiss it trying to send their to the loved one so far away. Not to the picture. So when people claim Idolatry of Christians, it seems as if it is argument made on false pretences, do these persons really care if people are Idolaters. As, they do not chase after anyone else in this manner. It simply seems, as if they for reasons of ill mindedness, attack Christians, and this is a false cause. If they were to call the question, on those who love trees, and hug them, and like wise Christians, Muslims, Jews, as Idolaters, then they would not be so baseless.
Take care and thank you for your kindness to others and myself.

Let us take this back up in a week or two as you suggested, as now is a time for morning for so many, agreed? please U2U me when you are ready. Unless you feel comfortable discussing this in the abstract method, without the use of examples.

Originally posted by Balaams donkey
So man is left with three choices, have no symbols of faith at all. Two worship the symbols of faith as if they contain God, or lastly have symbols of faith to help us worship God.
When a Christian sees a cross on a hill, he does not think of the greatness of wood, or shapes but the Lords love of man. What could be wrong with this?

Oh, I have no problem with symbols of a religion, as long as they remain symbols.

I do have a problem with physical structures used for temples, but that's my own personal problem, and I have to respect the fact that not everyone like myself has the ability, luxury, or desire to go out to the wilderness when they wish to commune with God. Some people need a congregation.

And truthfully, I don't even have a problem with Catholics using the crucifix, as it honestly has no bearing on my life whatsoever. My specific point was that I feel their particular use, of that particular symbol, is in violation of the very book the religion was founded on.

Originally posted by Balaams donkey
It simply seems, as if they for reasons of ill mindedness, attack Christians, and this is a false cause. If they were to call the question, on those who love trees, and hug them, and like wise Christians, Muslims, Jews, as Idolaters, then they would not be so baseless.
Take care and thank you for your kindness to others and myself.

(smile) Thank you, but I wouldn't consider it kindness so much as civility and respect towards others.

I'm a little confused by the tree lovers part. Are you saying that one cannot attack one religion with as much credibility as one attacking all religions? I suppose I can see that to an extent, as religion is 90% opinion, and 10% leadership. I'm sure divine inspiration comes into play somewhere, but I dare not assign a percentage to it.

However, I'm not so much attacking the Catholic religion, so much as pointing out what I perceive to be an inconsistancy. I'd do the same for any religion though.

Originally posted by Balaams donkey
Let us take this back up in a week or two as you suggested, as now is a time for morning for so many, agreed? please U2U me when you are ready. Unless you feel comfortable discussing this in the abstract method, without the use of examples.

I think what you suggested in U2U would be fine, though I would like to wait on it for the next couple of weeks, till a new Pope is chosen. I'll U2U back with the rest.

Originally posted by Jakko
I am no longer going to post here.
I can not blame anyone for not understanding the bible, I hardly understand it myself.

Good decision.

You admittadely do not understand the bible, yet you have the audacity to tell other people to go read the bible, and try to give your intrepretation of it?Am I the only one confused by this?

BTW-What happened Mr. Donkey I thought you were going to do some research and get back to me? Did you not like the link's/info given?

thelibra

And truthfully, I don't even have a problem with Catholics using the crucifix, as it honestly has no bearing on my life whatsoever. My specific point was that I feel their particular use, of that particular symbol, is in violation of the very book the religion was founded on. .....
....... However, I'm not so much attacking the Catholic religion, so much as pointing out what I perceive to be an inconsistancy. I'd do the same for any religion though.

Agreed, your point is valid, pertaining to inconsistency. If it does occur then, this is in error. The mind is fluid thing and can wander into dark jungles of error or silliness, this happens all the more, when reason is lost. It also occurs when those following any dogma or doctrine, lose sight of the foundation or reason of that codex's existence. This is occurring in rapid fashion with the U.S. Constitution. The framers reasons are, all but lost in twisted reasoning, and technical subterfuges. St. John Chrysostom says “the mother of heresy is the desire to control..” Alas..
We will continue, via u2u.
Take care my friend; it is most enjoyable to reason together.


1wintermute1,

Sorry, I forgot about you in my enjoyment of discourse with Libra. As it is always a good feeling to have discourse with someone, who is not afraid of truth or reason, where ever it is found. Some think because of the strength of my attacks on some points, that I enjoy this. It is not true, but as necessary task, to show the weakness of lies.

Also, as you noticed so quickly I have not returned you question. Now, you have asked. But, it is your turn, to return my questions. As it is well noted, that you did not responded to your error of blaming Christianity for all of the killings on earth. Nor, did you respond to the wisdom of freedom of arms. Nor did you respond to the Documented History of Christ, or the logic presented. I think, because of your avoidance in these matters, that you only bow your the pride of your mind and not reason. If this is so, then what would be the use of presenting you with further correction. Would I not be "casting pearls before swine?" , or leading a horse to water that he refuses to drink?

Having said all that, and knowing that if I do not prove my case yet once more, some, in error would cry foul. I will offer proof, but since I believe you will not accept truth, when shown, I will not continue with such foolishness.
Like your statement, "ALL THEOLOGICAL SCHOLARS AGREE ON THIS." this is shear folly, and completely without support, you without thinking blindly follow the claims of the books you read, then thinking you will be sound when presenting such in public. This is nonsense. As even the link you posted stated this:

"Concerning the issue of Christianity, for example, the majority of people are taught in most schools and churches that Jesus Christ was an actual historical figure"
A clear contradiction of your statement. Let us continue

Now to the examples of the links you sited. First the documentation is only of other "claims" by other authors, sure the author site examples, as if it is some source but it is only another author like himself. Not a valid historical claim, case in point:

1) Claim:
In fact, Pope Leo X, privy to the truth because of his high rank, made this curious declaration, "What profit has not that fable of Christ brought us!"15

the footnote:
The Woman's Encyclopedia of Myths and Secrets, by Barbara Walker, p. 471. Rev. Taylor, in The Diegesis, reports a slightly different version of Leo X's admission: "It was well known how profitable this fable of Christ has been to us." (footnote, p. 35.)

Refute: While it is true I do not have a copy of either of these books, I do have the complete collection of the Early Church Fathers, which must be the only solid source for these quotes. Researching them, Pope Leo never said any such thing. So one is left wondering the source of the quote?
Now some things St. Pope Leo of Rome did say:

V. Christ's flesh is proved real from Scripture.
Therefore in consequence of this unity of person which is to be understood in both natures(7), we read of the Son of Man also descending from heaven, when the Son of GOD took flesh from the Virgin who bore Him. And again the Son of GOD is said to have been crucified and buried, although it was not actually in His Divinity whereby the Only-begotten is co-eternal and con-substantial with the Father, but in His weak human nature that He suffered these things. And so it is that in the Creed also we all confess that the Only-begotten Son of God was crucified and buried, according to that saying of the Apostle: "for if they had known, they would never have crucified the LORD of glory(8)."
St. Pope Leo of Rome, The great letters,
Letter xxviii: to Flavain, the Tome.

2) Claim:
Wheless says, "The so-called 'canonical' books of the New Testament, as of the Old, are a mess of contradictions and confusions of text, to the present estimate of 150,000 and more 'variant readings,' as is well known and admitted."26

(26) footnote:
...Then he (Jesus) is made to say, "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost." (It is also interesting to note that the Trinity was not adopted by the Church until the 4th century, long after "Jesus's" purported statements concerning it. These proselytizers, then, were awfully slow in their preaching of this doctrine!) ... (edited for space)

The Refute:
This footnote does not support the statement at all. Moreover it claim, is false regarding the Trinity. Now lets use St. Pope Leo of Rome, because the author give him authority, to be able to claim Jesus is a fable, and that because he is Pope, thus, his word is valid.

II. (1) The Priscillianists' denial of the Trinity refuted.
And so under the first head is shown what unholy views they hold about the Divine Trinity: they affirm that the person of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost is one and the same, as if the same GOD were named now Father, now Son, and now Holy Ghost: and as if He who begot were not one, He who was begotten, another, and He who proceeded from both, yet another; but an undivided unity must be understood, spoken of under three names, indeed, but not consisting of three persons. This species of blasphemy they borrowed from Sabellius, whose followers were rightly called Patripassians also: because if the Son is identical with the Father, the Son's cross is the Father's passion (patris-passio): and the Father took on Himself all that the Son took in the form of a slave, and in obedience to the Father. Which without doubt is contrary to the catholic faith, which acknowledges the Trinity of the Godhead to be of one essence (homoou'sion) in such a way that it believes the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost indivisible without confusion, eternal without time, equal without difference: because it is not the same person but the same essence which fills the Unity in Trinity
St. Pope Leo of Rome: The great letters.
letter xiv: to anastansius, bishop of thessaloinca
Eied 10 November, 461

"Around the king of all, all things are, and because of Him are all things; and he [or that] is the cause of all good things; and around the second are the things second in order; and around the third, the third," I understand nothing else than the Holy Trinity to be meant;
Clement of Rome:
Book V Chapter XIV.
Died year 91 A.D was converted by Paul.

I am done showing you this is all in error and made up lies, if were to spend weeks of my life and money to by all the books he mentioned, I imagine it could be completely refuted, I simply checked the first two quotes that were easy to check and both were lies. Believe them if you wish, ATS has a rule against lying so please research what you post first.
I think this put you at 5 and 0, take care.

You can read the Early Chruch Fathers here if you really care:
www.ccel.org...

AAAAAAhhhhhh!

I went through all that work, and you get banned! Drat!

1wintermute1 ! There you are trapped in Antarctic, and now you are banned on ATS. Well, I hope I answered you questions.
In the end, please research the books you read, a lot of people publish a lot of garbage. Sorry about my spelling and grammer.
There is a very good book out there called, now I am not joking or insulting your intelligence, I always keep a copy of the book around.
How to read a book, by Dr. Adler Mortimer. It is simply the greatest book written on how to learn if a book is valid. I am not playing with you I mean it, I think you will really like it. Thanks.

Remember arm the masses, the life you save maybe your own!
Take care.

www.amazon.com...

Originally posted by 1wintermute1
Funny how chrisitians pick and choose what they remember Jesus saying.......look up Mathew 10:34

34Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

Jesus had plenty of smiting in mind.

I see. Who did he kill again? Now, if you'd like to read the entire chapter (instead of one sentence) then it's pretty clearly seen that he was talking about not uniting all people of the earth, but bringing division with the enemy being sin. I'm not being creative, that's what it talks about in the Book. That line is drawn over and over again in the gospels. I can recall the numerous occasions of 'love God, love your neighbor, and love your enemy'. Would you like me to quote all of them?


Hmmm...is that a new way of banning? Showing the username still? I thought they were being creative with the use of their 'title'.


[edit on 4-4-2005 by saint4God]

Originally posted by jake1997
"Why are so many people soo anti christian?..... when it comes to christianity....I see hatred, dripping wet with venom...possibly lead by a conspiracy, ...whos goal is anti-christian"


There is a conspiracy against Christ and His followers...1 John 2:18. Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

In John 15:8, Jesus said "If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you." It is the world's (prince of the power of the air's world system) way to hate Christ. Since its denizens can have no effect on Him, they "take it out" on us. They propose logical sounding arguments on why they don't believe as we do, that Jesus is Lord of all, pretend to believe we "try to make them", and scoff and scorn our belief that we need Christ for our eternal salvation, but it really boils down to they can't believe because the enemy of our souls has blinded them to the reality of Christ, God, and the Holy Spirit.

If one agrees with the world, Mt 13:15 says "For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. "

This is a almost a direct quote from an OT reference: Isaiah 6:10; so the dull of hearing are not just "Gentile" unbelievers, but it was said of the Jewish people, as well. In fact, Jesus was speaking to the generation of Jewish religionists as He spoke the words recorded in Matthew.

We are required to love our neighbors, but they are not required to love us, in fact the unbelieving pretty much are unable to. We don't see it, but if we believe in Christ and have His Spirit living in us, we do manifest Him in a spiritual way and the blinded and unbelieving ones are "compelled" to hate us. I've seen some "venom" too, and it is dispiriting but, as Jesus said, "Be of good cheer, I have overcome the world" (John 16:33)

There are many Christian forums where Christian bashing is not tolerated, and it is possible to have a discussion with out being hatefully attacked and ridiculed. Just off the top of my head, there's theology forum, and Theologyweb.

Be blessed brother, and fight the good fight of faith always

showing this is a 2,000+ year old sentiment. To new Christians, welcome and here's your flak jacket. Get ready to be hit but remember where your were the day before you believed in God, be patient and remember to "...Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you." (Matthew 5:44)

Pray, train, study.
God bless.

Originally posted by curiousity
We are required to love our neighbors, but they are not required to love us, in fact the unbelieving pretty much are unable to.

..answering hypathetical biggotry with biggoty. :shk:

I do not believe.. yet I am quite able to love and I am a compassionate person. I resent it ignorantly being pesumed.. and you should not judge the hearts of 'unbelievers'.. or anyone else for that matter.

Originally posted by riley
I do not believe.. yet I am quite able to love and I am a compassionate person.

Having only talked with you riley, I agree and will support this statement regardless of who says otherwise.

Originally posted by riley
and you should not judge the hearts of 'unbelievers'.. or anyone else for that matter.

In addition, if an unbeliever were incapable of loving, then there would be no believers.

Originally posted by saint4God

Originally posted by riley
I do not believe.. yet I am quite able to love and I am a compassionate person.

Having only talked with you riley, I agree and will support this statement

thankyou

regardless of who says otherwise.

who?! let me at em!

In addition, if an unbeliever were incapable of loving, then there would be no believers.

love and hate comes in all guises.

Being anti-christian, without a thorough investigation in the doctrines of christianity and it's complementary schools of thought, I would say arises from an impulsive need to quell the dogma that now runs rampant in the religion.

The key err is that of impulse, and seeing how many translations and rewritings there have been of this book, it is quite easy to find contradictory pairs in comparing texts.

I would say that it is not an anti-chritian conspiracy in this regard, rather plainly it is just human arrogance, that is found rampant within and without this religion.

***

My qualms are with the dogma of christianity today, that I can regard externally from it's morals. Too few from the previous example I have stated even consider this course of action. As I have much respect for alot of the morals stated within the religion, I also equally speculate the follies due to the detremental state of blind faith that is suggested as a requirment from the religion. Many so called christians have been lulled from the orders on high, and forget the cheif role of free will. People argue over minute definitions without seeing the common thread of rectitude, and fail to reference the ancient texts that have formed the scriptures in which they cite to be unquestionable.

There may after all be a conspiracy, but it is a conspiracy that is to undermine the ability to civilly disagree and respect the free will of others, it is a conspiracy for the impulse of Aristotelean belief systems and of the fear of the unknown. As Robert Anton Wilson put it, quite simply, it's the conspiracy of the stupid, and it's everywhere. When we stop dumbing down the truth, and when we stop acting as if we have all the answers, that's when the understanding will be brought from the darkness into the light.

I would say this will happen cheifly when humankind can take a quantum philosophical approach on the occult and the paranormal. Then it will not be occult, simply our higher nature, which will become the norm. I find at our state of evolution that it seems that the majority is still caught up in impulse and fear, I think you should regard your focus and denying these reprehensible characteristics instead of thinking it is soley a conspiracy to one religion that in time has become dogmatic.

Good luck to all truth seekers, may love and light be your guide.

Originally posted by saint4God
showing this is a 2,000+ year old sentiment. To new Christians, welcome and here's your flak jacket. Get ready to be hit but remember where your were the day before you believed in God, be patient and remember to "...Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you." (Matthew 5:44)

Hi, Saint, I'm not sure if your post was praise or criticism, since I didn't get the "showing this is a 2,000+ year old sentiment" part. In any event, I thought your advice to new Christians on target in a big way.

As for the ones who "resented" part of my previous post about unbelievers not loving believers, I'd like to clarify what I said, since it has been wrested out of my meaning (surprise, surprise): Anyway, of course, unbelievers can "love" and feel compassion, since we are created by God Who is love (1 John 4:8). What I intended and feel should have been clear from my context, was that unbelievers can't love believers, because the love of God is not in them, and it is God's Spirit in us they don't love.

Now, because I can already sense the gears turning for the next volley, allow me to say the obvious: I am not speaking of believers in an unbeliever's circle of friends; friendship love, and family love are not the exact level of love of God, after all.

And just a word for you who think otherwise, "love" is not just a feeling. It is an act of will for the believer, stemming from love of God, who commands us to love as He does, equally and without prejudicial ratings of whom we find "worthy" of love.

To impress on us the seriousness of this demand, He says, as saint4God quoted, that we are "love (even) our enemies" and points out that if we love only some people, we are falling short of His love.

It is difficult for a human not to "play favorites", hold prejudices, and respect one or some over others. Who would have trouble respecting the president of the USofA over, say, a street person who needs a bath?.

Unbelievers know how to show respect, look at how the attendees at the Dalai Lama's meetings bow and scrape, and get "holy" in his presence.

Yet some unbelievers, who would not think of speaking ill of Buddha, or the Dalai Lama, seem to have little trouble blaspheming God's Name, or Jesus Christ's saving Name, or accusing a Christian of any number of things. (And yes, all you gleeful mud-slingers, not that some "christians" haven't provided you with plenty of juicy dirt with which to smear the name).

Why is it always that unbelievers may not know or wish to know ANYTHING else about the Bible or the Christian faith, but want to accuse a Christian who confronts them of "judging"? I have startling news for those who indulge themselves, the days of having that turn us into a shrinking pile of "accused and found guilty" jello is coming to a fast end, so it behooves you and your master to get a better line.

It might totally surprise you, for instance, that 1 Cor 6:2 says "Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world will be judged by you, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters?" It is a small matter that you judge me, but not that God in me judge you, see what I'm getting at?

Now, to the one who jumped on the poster who had the "audacity" to say there is a need to read the Bible, when, oh no, oh how terrible, oh how desppppicable, s/he (don't recall if it was a male or female poster) had admitted s/he didn't much understand it! Well, the noive!

Here's a little inside info for ya, hon, no one much understands it until the Spirit of God has had some time to get into the mind of the reader or hearer and enlighten it. That's why Jesus sent back the Comforter, the Holy Spirit, because (John 16:13 ... when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. .

It is clear that to be "guided into" something infers 1) you're not there yet, and 2) you're going somewhere.

It is not for ignorance we are condemned, but for wilful disregard of the truth of God.

Might want to think about that for awhile.

light being
I would say this will happen cheifly when humankind can take a quantum philosophical approach on the occult and the paranormal. Then it will not be occult, simply our higher nature, which will become the norm. I find at our state of evolution that it seems that the majority is still caught up in impulse and fear, I think you should regard your focus and denying these reprehensible characteristics instead of thinking it is soley a conspiracy to one religion that in time has become dogmatic.

Howdy, light

Gee, if people would only become occultists everything would be groovy. Then the truth would be known. We would all be full of light and life. Christians say the same thing, and you attack?

Well, I was and Occult Master, and it is of the devil! That is why I became a Christian. Most people do not want to be involved in Occult because they know it is evil. I was brave and tried it out, whole hog! Well guess what, it is evil on top and it is evil on the bottom, you are a victim of Satan.

I once before asked you if the name Cyprian meant anything to you, and you never answered me. Cyprian was the at one time the world greatest Occultist, far greater that mere Crowley. He did an about face when he saw that the power of cross defeated every power of Satan. So look him up his life, it is available on the net. Unless your, still caught up in impulse and fear.

BTW, you never flew over to my house and raised stones into sons of Abraham, what happened? Is your godhood tired, did god forget?

Donkey, I'm sorry, but...

You told 1winter that he shouldn't BLINDLY follow the books he reads. Do you see a certain irony in that statement? Can you say faith? Maybe he has faith in those books he read, or maybe you 2 are both wrong for believing what you read. Which one is it, Donkey? And, how can you attack the validity of someone's view that differs from yours, yet get mad when someone attacks the validity of the Bible?

I will say this one more time since no one wants to talk about this. There IS a real conspiracy against Christians right now, and it is the Christian conservative leaders who are behind it! I guarantee that no one can say I made up all that stuff I said before. Well, here's more...Christians are being threatened with the charge of hate crime if they read certain passages from the Bible. Still don't believe that, though, do you?

I am not surprised, though. I have heard a radio talk show host talk about this stuff, and he even notes that, in his words, the "so-called Christians" won't talk about it. But, don't get it twisted, he is a Christian himself...

Originally posted by Balaams donkey

Howdy, light

Gee, if people would only become occultists everything would be groovy. Then the truth would be known. We would all be full of light and life. Christians say the same thing, and you attack?

Well, I was and Occult Master, and it is of the devil! That is why I became a Christian. Most people do not want to be involved in Occult because they know it is evil. I was brave and tried it out, whole hog! Well guess what, it is evil on top and it is evil on the bottom, you are a victim of Satan.

I once before asked you if the name Cyprian meant anything to you, and you never answered me. Cyprian was the at one time the world greatest Occultist, far greater that mere Crowley. He did an about face when he saw that the power of cross defeated every power of Satan. So look him up his life, it is available on the net. Unless your, still caught up in impulse and fear.

BTW, you never flew over to my house and raised stones into sons of Abraham, what happened? Is your godhood tired, did god forget?

Oh you again, howdy I s'pose.

Well, look, I answered quite a few of your questions, where as you wrote off all of mine.

Now you mean to take the whole world of the occult, and apply it's lessons of morality from only the example of Cyprian. I have looked into him somewhat and have had trouble finding details from his conversion, it was said to happen between 245-248 A.D. but details are scarce, if you could supply some sources on this it would be appreciated. The sad fact is, that you don't indentify the miracles of Christ as occult phenomenon, which by the true definition of the occult, they are. I have given you many leads to further investigate what I mean by this in our previous entanglement, so I leave it up to you to answer my unregarded questions for your understanding, do as you wish.

Your perversion of the occult is not uncommon, and I may understand that you have come to this conclusion as many orders and societies on this planet are into what you may know as Black magic. It is only one mere side of the coin, and I am not in any regard a Satanist, I do take that as an insult, and ask you to kindly stop toting that label towards me if you wish any further conversation.

All occult means in Latin is "that which is hidden" ...be it, what is hidden from view. There are higher forms of nature that are hidden from the understanding of most, though not in the regard of the one you call Jesus, and so rightfully he could perform miracles. I don't intend to debate this with you further as you subject me with countless fallacy, mainly circular reasoning.

I would still be interested, respectively, in your background as an occultist. If you could mention in any detail what rituals, if any, you performed, as well as any organizations you were arranged with, it would bring insight to an otherwise Red Herring.

As for raising stones, by your own right you are being blasphemous, as you are not to test the lord your God.

If you insist in making a further a$$ of yourself, I won't stop you, with pun in mind, it would not be out of your character.


[edit on 4-4-2005 by Light Being]

light

The sad fact is, that you don't indentify the miracles of Christ as occult phenomenon, which by the true definition of the occult, they are. I have given you many leads to further investigate what I mean by this in our previous entanglement, so I leave it up to you to answer my unregarded questions for your understanding, do as you wish.

Hi lightbeing,

Your claim, miracles of Christ are really just occult phenomenon, or magic. Ok, I can see how someone could think this, I must say, I certainly did for most of my life. Then reason showed up, and showed how this could not be so.

In all of my studies, I have never read of any occultist raising someone from the dead, as do Christians, they can call up demons to infest a corpse, but not have power over life. Most occults, try and teach that Jesus was just meditating on the Cross and did not die. This is a really big lie, they pierced his side with a lance and blood and water came forth, showing the heart was priced. The Jews who "hated" him wanted to make sure that he was dead, before Passover so they ask Pilate to kill the crucified, he said he would. They buried, him and list is quite long. No occultist that I have ever seen can do any more that remove pain, or do energy work, compared to Christ raising the dead, healing withered limbs, curing the blind, the deaf and dumb, and so on.

Can you name any non-Christian that can do those things? If you are god as you claim can you do those things?

TESTING SPIRITS

As for raising stones, by your own right you are being blasphemous, as you are not to test the lord your God.

No, I am not, read the Bible, it says there are unclean spirits, and the spirit of Truth, it say be not deceived,

1 John 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but TRY the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. (false prophet, that would be you) Yes, you should not test God if you know it is Him, but it does tell us to test the spirits, to see if they are God or not.


ON MAGIC
Acts 13:6 And when they had gone through the isle unto Paphos, they found a certain sorcerer, a false prophet, a Jew, whose name was Barjesus:
Acts 13:8 But Elymas the sorcerer (for so is his name by interpretation) withstood them, seeking to turn away the deputy from the faith.
Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Now the Lord is very clear that magic is bad. Now you said the Occult means hidden, that is not what we are talking about and you know it. It is about magic, and magic is not Christian, is it. The great difference is the when, The Lord does something, it is His right as he is King and God, it is not our right to rebel by witchcraft just because we don’t like it.

1 Samuel 15:23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.

Now about Cyprian, you can find an account of his life here,

www.orthodoxinfo.com...

It is a very nice story, I think you will enjoy it, really I mean you no harm, I know what you are saying is not true. Now, no one likes to hear that, not you or me. So please do not feel that I am attack you, only what you say.

MY PAST
I studied, and trained with many Occult masters, Druidism, Zen, Tibetan Buddhism, witchcraft, Tai chi, yoga, and the like. I was introduced to these things as a very young boy, and studied them for years, with some of the greatest masters. I believed in what I was doing as you do, so I am no one to judge you, but I can say what you believe in is in error, in fact I fight you for two reasons, one, so no one will believe what you are saying and enter into to doom, and so that you might relies what you are doing is a lie.

Since you are being civil, I too wish nothing more than to be likewise with you, so if you wish to discuss this reasonably, and logically, I will be as helpful in this as possible. You may ask me any question you wish as long as It does not require me to give someone’s name. Also what school are you from?
Sorry this is so long, I did not know how to make it shorter.

truthseeka

You told 1winter that he shouldn't BLINDLY follow the books he reads. Do you see a certain irony in that statement? Can you say faith?

Yes I can say faith, can you say reason? Christ give us reason to believe that he is God. I have reason not faith. My faith is trusting the mercy of Christ to forgive me of my sin. I believe that, but God is never unreasonable. So when we are without God we are without reason also.
So I do not believe blindly as you might guess.

Let see how much you know? Shall we, can you name some of the reasons, listed in the Bible as to why Christ is God?

Originally posted by curiousity
Hi, Saint, I'm not sure if your post was praise or criticism, since I didn't get the "showing this is a 2,000+ year old sentiment" part. In any event, I thought your advice to new Christians on target in a big way.

Sorry for being ambiguous... The first part was kinda my title, so I meant it to read "Nice work curiousity, showing this is a 2,000+ year old sentiment". A lot of us in our position believe 'times are a changin' but really it's been like this all long, we just happen to be walking into it. I watched the boards for months, then realized I needed to paint a big red target on my chest since sometimes people were missing when they were firing at us now and then

Originally posted by curiousity
Anyway, of course, unbelievers can "love" and feel compassion, since we are created by God Who is love (1 John 4:8). What I intended and feel should have been clear from my context, was that unbelievers can't love believers, because the love of God is not in them, and it is God's Spirit in us they don't love.

Oh, okay. The first time I read it, it sounded like that, but the second time when riley quoted, it did look like a slap.

Originally posted by curiousity
To impress on us the seriousness of this demand, He says, as saint4God quoted, that we are "love (even) our enemies" and points out that if we love only some people, we are falling short of His love.

It is difficult for a human not to "play favorites", hold prejudices, and respect one or some over others. Who would have trouble respecting the president of the USofA over, say, a street person who needs a bath?.

*cheers & applause!* Well said, well said

Originally posted by curiousity
It is not for ignorance we are condemned, but for wilful disregard of the truth of God.

Ooh, this is a good one. Hold onto this one for the 'Austrailian Aborigines' argument.