The Anti-Christian conspiracy

Originally posted by dbrandt

Originally posted by SomewhereinBetween
are not the masters of our destiny, where destiny is defined as consequence of action carried out.

But we would be masters of our eternity. So while our present timebound existence can be altered by God. Our eternal destination and existence would be our choice.

No. If our free thought which is what causes us to institute our free will is filtered and altered, then we cannot control our destiny either, and if we are not masters of our destiny, we are certainly not masters of our eternity. Conversely, as you initially captured, if our timebound existence can be altered by God, then it is he who decides that future existence.

As a reminder, I do not believe he interferes in any way, for free thought leads to freewill and freewill leads to action, and action leads to consequence. It is my belief that just as we can go from learning how to say gaga to supercalifragilisticexpealidocious, we have been blessed with an intrinsic ability to learn all that he has bequeathed to us.

[edit on 4/2/05 by SomewhereinBetween]

Originally posted by SomewhereinBetween
As a reminder, I do not believe he interferes in any way, for free thought leads to freewill and freewill leads to action, and action leads to consequence. It is my belief that just as we can go from learning how to say gaga to supercalifragilisticexpealidocious, we have been blessed with an intrinsic ability to learn all that he has bequeathed to us.

[edit on 4/2/05 by SomewhereinBetween]

Yah we are just conversing even though we're both not on the same page. Hopefully we can talk without irritating each other.

Acoording to what we know if the Bible is the guide, a person's eternal destination is set from birth(by this I don't mean a little baby that dies goes to hell or a toddler, mentally impaired etc because they wouldn't, but that a person's spirit is born dead and the bent toward sin will appear in a person and that causes seperation from God unless Christ is accepted.
So I remember laying on the floor when I was about 7 or 8 and I was watching Billy Graham. He speaks very plainly as to salvation. He says a person needs to accept Christ to live with God eternally and escape seperation from God(he uses the hell word). So I remember asking my mom who was there if this was true and I needed to do this. In a nutshell she said yes. So I also remember that when he said the prayer I prayed it too ,and looking back on that memory I know I meant it. So based on this info I heard from someone I had a choice to make. So I decided to the affirmative in this case. My eternal destination was changed at that moment because of a choice I made. I could have also said no. It would have also been my choice to say no and my destiny would have remained the same. Now since I was faced with a choice at that moment and had the information available about the decision, if I had decided to say no that would have been my choice to and as such I would be confirming that I wanted to remain in my present condition and ultimately can't blame God because I would have confirmed it with a no thank you.

What I look back at right now and think is ironic is I have 3 brothers who went to church and Sunday School and I didn't when I was growing up. There's no evidence to believe they are saved. They had more info and opportunity and yet probably said no many times and I had less opportunity and info and said yes.

Originally posted by dbrandtAcoording to what we know if the Bible is the guide,...

Once more, I must bring this paradigm to your attention, where you cannot see past your Bible as your course of revelation, I do not see it as such, but I can certainly use your Bible against you. Therefore, when you see the cup as half empty, you cannot contemplate the whole, nor can you imagine the half full. The half full you miss is that I declare your Bible to be fallacy because I happen to know it inside and out as well as from what it derives. You only know what is inside.

a person's eternal destination is set from birth(by this I don't mean a little baby that dies goes to hell or a toddler, mentally impaired etc because they wouldn't, but that a person's spirit is born dead and the bent toward sin will appear in a person and that causes seperation from God unless Christ is accepted.

And again, a Christian concept which is backed by nothing but speculation. You take your faith from a religion which is derived from the Bible, yet that Bible says nothing of the sort.

So I remember laying on the floor when I was about 7 or 8 and I was watching Billy Graham. He speaks very plainly as to salvation. He says a person needs to accept Christ to live with God eternally and escape seperation from God(he uses the hell word).

Have I not stated repeatedly that God implants into all of us from birth his awareness and that he gave no man exclusive knowledge of himself? Why then are you trying to impress upon me that you were dependent on Graham to learn about God? Is it your position that God robbed you of his presence and could only grant his essence to you through others?




[edit on 4/2/05 by SomewhereinBetween]

Quoted, by Balaam Donkey

You seem to link freewill and free action together, can you tell me why? If I am forced to do something against my will, does my will necessarily follow? Does my will conform to my action? Do my actions always conform to my will?
We agree that freewill exists, but why do you say it is necessary for it be coupled with action?

Quoted, by somewhere

Considering your absolute failure thus far at understanding anything donkey, henceforth whenever you post to me I will be taking control of any exchange to ensure that you stay on track and not veer off on your usual tangents, for I have little to no patience with mild sophistry. Therefore, refine your statements if you wish a productive discussion relative to:

First off, you are in charge of nothing. Sorry no little quest for power is going to work here. Use your Jedi mind trick on someone else. But, it is easy to your fear of my questions. Which is really why you beg me to stop.

Just to show how disjointed is your logic, if God is in the heart, we have no need of scripture, do we donkey?

Pure genius, that is like saying if God is in your heart you have no need of shoes?
Now you will have to be schooled in logic, as is seems far away from you. You cannot have a discussion without a position. You tell everyone how smart you are, but you run from the merest question. How scared are you? What is wrong? Is your position weak and undefendable? You show yourself to hypocrisy of the nth degree, by the fact you will ask questions, but cannot stand to answer a one. Never have I seen such weakness and dishonesty. If you had a position of any worth you would be able to share your wisdom, but sadly this is not the case.

So here is a real easy one for you, as you have asked to have them simplified for you.

Are freewill and free action coupled?

Originally posted by Balaams donkey
Exodus 34:14 For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God:

The worship of false god is the root of the commandment.

This was given because Idolartors would worship carved(graven) idols and the thougth the spirit of the god, was in the Idol. It was a devil, not a God.

Right after this the Lord goes on to tell Moses, how to make the Ark, and to place images on it.

Hmmm...

Donkey, you raise an interesting counterpoint, and you provide a good case for it, however, I'm not fully convinced that it still justifies the overuse of the crucifix in the Catholic traditions.

(EDIT) I had a full post here to back up why, but out of respect for the trying time our Catholic members are currently facing, I went ahead and erased it.

I'd rather not attack Catholicism while their Pope is in the process of passing to the next world. Out of respect for their troubles, I'd like to table this until John Paul II either stabilizes, or moves on.


[edit on 4/2/2005 by thelibra]

Originally posted by thelibra
Donkey, you raise an interesting counterpoint, and you provide a good case for it, however, I'm not fully convinced that it still justifies the overuse of the crucifix in the Catholic traditions.
[edit on 4/2/2005 by thelibra]

I am guessing that christ doesn't have overly fond memories of the crucifix. I wonder if when he returns and sees all these loonies waving them about that he won't freak out and start smiting people.

Originally posted by Balaams donkey

First off, you are in charge of nothing. Sorry no little quest for power is going to work here. Use your Jedi mind trick on someone else. But, it is easy to your fear of my questions. Which is really why you beg me to stop.

More puffery coming from you donkey. If demanding that you learn how to interpret what you read and attempt for once to elucidate your questions and or points is begging you to stop, then no wonder your thoughts are muddled and meaningless.

Just to show how disjointed is your logic, if God is in the heart, we have no need of scripture, do we donkey?

Pure genius, that is like saying if God is in your heart you have no need of shoes?

Testament to my statement of your muddled thoughts.

Now you will have to be schooled in logic, as is seems far away from you. You cannot have a discussion without a position. You tell everyone how smart you are, but you run from the merest question. How scared are you? What is wrong? Is your position weak and undefendable? You show yourself to hypocrisy of the nth degree, by the fact you will ask questions, but cannot stand to answer a one. Never have I seen such weakness and dishonesty. If you had a position of any worth you would be able to share your wisdom, but sadly this is not the case.

I am looking for the logic that I am to be schooled in, for the life of me I can find nothing resembling same. Let us add delusion to your faulty logic and lack of critical thinking, perhaps one of these days you will actually attempt to back up your claims, and as such a few more for you to do:

Where have I told anyone how smart I am donkey?
Where is the hypocrisy donkey? It is you who are consistently tossing out wild interpretations and misinformation ALWAYS veering off on tangents lacking in any substance in every post you make so as to cover for your numerous faux pas. Such a temper you have when things do not go your way donkey!

Are freewill and free action coupled?

You are behind by at least 40 questions, and as I have already told you, I will be controlling any discourse between us, it is the only way to overcome the remedial deficiencies within your posts.

Now just because of your belligernece, I am going to flatline your position on the crucifix and damage once more your woefully inadequate knowledege of theology. Isaiah 44 7:20 and pay particular note to verses 13 through 17.

[edit on 4/2/05 by SomewhereinBetween]

Originally posted by JamesBlonde
I am guessing that christ doesn't have overly fond memories of the crucifix.

Hm. That's an interesting point. Would Jesus carry around a crucifix? Well, we do know he carried around a cross...

Originally posted by JamesBlonde
I wonder if when he returns and sees all these loonies waving them about that he won't freak out and start smiting people.

I doubt it. Smiting wasn't something he did. He was the one going around saying to love god, love your neighbor and love your enemy. Is there anybody he didn't love?

Originally posted by saint4God

I doubt it. Smiting wasn't something he did. He was the one going around saying to love god, love your neighbor and love your enemy. Is there anybody he didn't love?

Funny how chrisitians pick and choose what they remember Jesus saying.......look up Mathew 10:34

34Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

Jesus had plenty of smiting in mind.

Originally posted by 1wintermute1

Funny how chrisitians pick and choose what they remember Jesus saying.......look up Mathew 10:34

34Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

Jesus had plenty of smiting in mind.

Ah of course, that is what you anti-christianity trolls are best at.
Isolating verses from the bible and ripping them out of context to match with your twisted opinion.

I suggest you read the entire chapter 10 and try to understand what's there.

Originally posted by Jakko

Originally posted by 1wintermute1

Funny how chrisitians pick and choose what they remember Jesus saying.......look up Mathew 10:34

34Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

Jesus had plenty of smiting in mind.

Ah of course, that is what you anti-christianity trolls are best at.
Isolating verses from the bible and ripping them out of context to match with your twisted opinion.

I suggest you read the entire chapter 10 and try to understand what's there.

I have read the bible numerous times from cover to cover in multiple languages. I am more than familiar with it thank you. I suggest you go back to my earlier post'concerning the historical jesus and do some reading yourself good sir.

Originally posted by 1wintermute1

Jesus had plenty of smiting in mind.

Well, either that or very exotic views on how best to clean your fingernails. From what I know of christianity it would seem that christ was a peaceful figure without a predisposition to smiting but then so was Frodo Baggins. I just wonder that he might be a bit distressed or get the wrong idea with that particular image. I would say god is more the smiting type, he is a well documented smiter.

It's just such a fun word, smite smite smite, I dont blame him! It really rolls off the tongue. I wish I could smite something just to see what it feels like.

Originally posted by Jakko
Ah of course, that is what you anti-christianity trolls are best at.
Isolating verses from the bible and ripping them out of context to match with your twisted opinion.

You are being ironic aren't you? There have been several times where 'christians' have used that verse to suit their own twisted opinions [defending things like prolife vilence, crusades etc].. what.. are only chiristians allowed to do this? The whole bible is interpritive.. no-one really knows what context it's meant to be taken in.


[edit on 2-4-2005 by riley]

That's not right either riley.
I am not going to defend crusades, or witches being burned.
That doesn't mean it's okay to rip the bible apart in these very simplistic quick ways of making christianity look bad.

Originally posted by Jakko

That doesn't mean it's okay to rip the bible apart in these very simplistic quick ways of making christianity look bad.

Christianity has done ENOUGH to make itself look bad....it is bad.....people like me just point these things out

Originally posted by Jakko
That's not right either riley.
I am not going to defend crusades, or witches being burned.
That doesn't mean it's okay to rip the bible apart in these very simplistic quick ways of making christianity look bad.

It already does look bad.. and the reason for that [crusades, witch burning etc] is because christians ripped the bible apart to suit their own agendas and marched off to war on all the heathens.. there is no escaping that or saying it was just a few lost sheep. You can read that line and see something 'good'.. another christian might read it and think it justifies violence.. you shouldn't immediately cry 'persecuted christian' when a non believer reads it as something hateful.. because it would in fact sound hateful to many [to me anyway]. One man's treasure is another man's trash I guess.

[edit on 2-4-2005 by riley]

Originally posted by 1wintermute1
34Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

This refers to the decision everyone has to make concerning Christ. You need to make God your first priority. If someone doesn't understand your acceptance of Christ as Savior, because they have not done likewise, and as such they don't understand salvation and living for God, this will cause a division. This spiritual division will cause you to do things that others may deem as stupid.

It also doesn't mean you stop loving those who are near to you, but it does mean your relationship with Christ has to be #1. It doesn't mean you kill them or forsake them. It means God must be your most important aspect of life.

Originally posted by 1wintermute1

Originally posted by saint4God

I doubt it. Smiting wasn't something he did. He was the one going around saying to love god, love your neighbor and love your enemy. Is there anybody he didn't love?

Funny how chrisitians pick and choose what they remember Jesus saying.......look up Mathew 10:34

34Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

Jesus had plenty of smiting in mind.

That was a great link you posted (and article, I guess)!

I knew some of the general ideas, but I didn't connect the dots until I read that article. I don't take it all as fact, so I'm going to do some research for myself.

And yes, Jesus did use force. Remember the money changers? I'm not sure he didn't exist at all, but I'm pretty sure that his main attributes were borrowed from other religions. Come on, now, EVERY religion borrows from older ones!

Good response to Jakko, Riley. I guess only Christians can quote bible verses to make a point; everybody else has to talk about the whole chapter...

I am no longer going to post here.
I can not blame anyone for not understanding the bible, I hardly understand it myself.
I do realize that if I start explaining verses to you, and why I think they are not ment like you make it sound, there will be no end to this discussion.

Regardless of what verse we look at, you will always look at it from the negative side, and I will probably always try to see it in the light of the loving, caring, interested God that I know personally.

The quick anti-christianity comments do bother me, but in the end I should probably just learn how to count to ten and not bite all the time.

To me it is very sad that some people have become to hurt or insulted by the wrong kind of christians that they can no longer look at anything christian in an objective and reasonable way.

Originally posted by 1wintermute1

Originally posted by Jakko

That doesn't mean it's okay to rip the bible apart in these very simplistic quick ways of making christianity look bad.

Christianity has done ENOUGH to make itself look bad....it is bad.....people like me just point these things out

That's funny. I don't necessarily think that it's all bad, but there are bad elements.

Does anyone know that during the colonial period of America, Africans who were brought over for labor were indentured servants JUST LIKE EUROPEANS AND OTHERS!! It was the Puritans who, for some reason, decided that they should be slaves instead of servants, using the "sub-human" explanation as justification? Pure-itans, give me a break, those screwballs have messed up this country in more ways than one. Big thumbs down from me...