The Anti-Christian conspiracy

Originally posted by saint4God
The other "theory" is that it is Pisces, but if you look at the Piscies symbol and origin, it should be immediately clear they're not the same.

You are fixating on the modern symbol for Pisces. Historically, Pisces was represented by two opposing fish, such as the ones found here:

Early Christian church uncovered

Ichthys is also known as the Vesica Pisces, which was a mystical symbol for the Pythagoreans long before it was used by Christians. It's proportions are 265:153, with 153 being known in the ancient world as the "number of the fish" and found in John 21:11.

Originally posted by saint4God
Propagandists should get together to at least come up with a consistent or cohesive line of thinking before claiming that the fish is not Christian in origin. Rather than "theories", can we stick to the facts?

The Vesica Pisces was used by the Pythagoreans hundreds of years BCE. These are verifiable facts Saint.

Originally posted by spamandham
It's proportions are 265:153, with 153 being known in the ancient world as the "number of the fish" and found in John 21:11.

Egads! Somebody call the newspaper! That can't possibly be coincidental! And the fact that it's in John 21:11, whereas the toilet seat to my "john" is 21 inches across and 11 millimeters high!

Those writers of John sure missed the mark, not putting their "magic number" in John 2:65... or maybe John 26:5.

The Vesica Pisces was used by the Pythagoreans hundreds of years BCE. These are verifiable facts Saint.

Wait a sec. You're saying common folk in Jesus' day were mathmatically brilliant? Well, thanks at least for that. *baaa baaa*

How is any of this related to an "Anti-Christian Conspiracy" again?

[edit on 25-11-2005 by saint4God]

OK, I'm catching on - maybe I'm just a bit slow...

Christians repeat, over-and-over, that theirs must be the one true faith because they have a "perfect argument" - the Perfect Argument goes like this:
Christians believe that they are right because they are told that there will always be those who say that they are not." OK, that is brilliant! I cannot imagine a more perfect argument!

Further, they are instructed to go out and convert the whole world.

Good, so far? Stop me if I'm wrong.

So, taking this to the extremes: On that blessed day, when every man, woman, and child on the face of this entire planet (and any new inhabited planets that we may find in the interim) becomes a true, devout, absolute Christian believer then, oops! No one is telling them that they are wrong, any more. YIKES! What now?!

Originally posted by saint4God

Egads! Somebody call the newspaper! That can't possibly be coincidental!

Did you happen to go read the passage in question? What is the number 153 in reference to?

Originally posted by saint4God
Wait a sec. You're saying common folk in Jesus' day were mathmatically brilliant?

No, but Pythagoras was, and he had a cult following that thrived long after his death. Those who follow need not know why '153' is the number of the fish, they merely need to know that it is.

By the way, I can tell from the tone of your post some of this is starting to sink in.

Originally posted by saint4God
How is any of this related to an "Anti-Christian Conspiracy" again?

Because the real conspiracy was among the Romans in cahoots with leaders of the early church, not anything that's going on now.

[edit on 25-11-2005 by spamandham]

not disagreeing at all... I just wanted to point out that the Christians didn't "invent" being in cahoots with the Romans - the Jews were doing it well before Jesus came along. (Or, at least, one of the many Jesuses that were around in that day.) Hey! The Romans were the super-power of the day. If you wanted to survive, you got in their bed with them at some point and in some ways.

Originally posted by Al Davison
OK, I'm catching on - maybe I'm just a bit slow...

Christians repeat, over-and-over, that theirs must be the one true faith because they have a "perfect argument" - the Perfect Argument goes like this:
Christians believe that they are right because they are told that there will always be those who say that they are not." OK, that is brilliant! I cannot imagine a more perfect argument!

Further, they are instructed to go out and convert the whole world.

Good, so far? Stop me if I'm wrong.

Stop.

Originally posted by spamandham
Did you happen to go read the passage in question? What is the number 153 in reference to?

Why yes spamandham. Yes I did.

Originally posted by spamandham
No, but Pythagoras was, and he had a cult following that thrived long after his death. Those who follow need not know why '153' is the number of the fish, they merely need to know that it is.

Christ/Christians aren't big on magik numbers. Don't know what that's hard to understand.

Originally posted by spamandham
By the way, I can tell from the tone of your post some of this is starting to sink in.

Actually the sarcasm comes out of the pointlessness of the argument. I'd like to get back to the "meat and potatoes" if at all possible.

Originally posted by spamandham
Because the real conspiracy was among the Romans in cahoots with leaders of the early church, not anything that's going on now.

Looks like this thread is evidence otherwise. Sorry friend.

Al, another tactic of the conspiracy against Christianity is declaring all Christians to be "Bible bashers" trying to force their religion on everyone else. The only person who's ever credited me with "bringing them to God" was a very violent and corrupt police officer who, after 7 years, was moved to learn why I could keep forgiving the unforgivable and blessing (with actual blessings like food and shelter; my prayers being silent and private between me and God) my enemies.

Christians know and accept that everyone is FREE to reject the information they freely share, understanding that unless and untill God calls, you arn't able to hear, whereas "Bible bashers" miss this point thinking that racking up people they've personally 'converted' gets them more brownie points with God.

As I've mentioned before, around the pub pool table no one picks me as a Christian, just a good, fair and sporting player that doesn't cheat on the table or on my 'shouts'. If the subject of God comes up I will declare my faith and get on with the game as I do on ATS but here, with so much Christian bashing going on, there is alot more opportunity to discuss faith.

OK, I get what you are saying.

What I am saying is that there are many paths to G-d and they do not all require Christianity. Muslims, Jews, and others have found what they believe to be a true path to G-d that does not include a belief in a divine Jesus. I believe in a G-d, a Supreme Being, or whatever you like to call it. I do not share a belief in a divine Jesus and do not accept any part of that as being equal to a belief in G-d.

So, when people begin to draw lines in the sand that say "if you are not a Christian then you have not found G-d" they are making an implicit challenge that my beliefs are mistaken and incorrect. I cannot help but feel some resentment to that kind of judgemental attitude and I will rise to that challenge.

I've done my homework. Rather, I should say that I have been and probably will continue doing my homework for a long time.

It's not the spiritual aspects of the various brand-name religions that I find most interesting, anyway. My interests are in the effect that these major religions have had and continue to have on how they shape the way humans interact. When that interaction turns ugly - the arguments about who is right and who is wrong; who is going to heaven and who is damned to hell; who has the moral high-ground; etc. then, I perceive these institutionalized religions as having a negative effect. I confess to wanting to work towards more positive human interactions and one of the methods is to try to eliminate the negatives. So, in the USA, when Christians begin their "my G-d can beat up your G-d" rhetoric, I don't mind challenging them.

Any person who has taken the time to examine all the various ways they can understand G-d can legitamitly offer the way they believe is best as long as their advice is given sincerely and without threats and accusations.

There's more but, I have to go now.

Originally posted by saint4God

Originally posted by spamandham
Did you happen to go read the passage in question? What is the number 153 in reference to?

Why yes spamandham. Yes I did.

Well, I guess since you're banned you won't be able to reply to this, but for those who might be following, 153 is "the number of the fish", and "the number of the fish" that were caught in the passage in question is 153. Considering the popularity of the Pythagoreans in first century Greece, the odds that this is coincidence is darn close to 0.

The 153 is a coded message for those who were initiates into the mystery.

Originally posted by spamandham
The 153 is a coded message for those who were initiates into the mystery.

Are you?

Pythagoras has always amazed me, but I'm always puzzled by the following rules which he apparently set:

• To abstain from beans.
  
• Not to pick up what has fallen.
  
• Not to touch a white cock.
  
• Not to stir the fire with iron.
  
• Do not look in a mirror beside a light.
  

Anyways, Pythagoras was much more than a mathematician.

From the Testimony of Truth:

It is written in the Law concerning this, when God gave a command to Adam, "From every tree you may eat, but from the tree which is in the midst of Paradise do not eat, for on the day that you eat from it, you will surely die." But the serpent was wiser than all the animals that were in Paradise, and he persuaded Eve, saying, "On the day when you eat from the tree which is in the midst of Paradise, the eyes of your mind will be opened." And Eve obeyed, and she stretched forth her hand; she took from the tree and ate; she also gave to her husband with her. And immediately they knew that they were naked, and they took some fig-leaves (and) put them on as girdles.

But God came at the time of evening, walking in the midst of Paradise. When Adam saw him, he hid himself. And he said, "Adam, where are you?" He answered (and) said, "I have come under the fig tree." And at that very moment, God knew that he had eaten from the tree of which he had commanded him, "Do not eat of it." And he said to him, "Who is it who has instructed you?" And Adam answered, "The woman whom you have given me." And the woman said, "It is the serpent who instructed me." And he (God) cursed the serpent, and called him "devil." And he said, "Behold, Adam has become like one of us, knowing evil and good." Then he said, "Let us cast him out of paradise, lest he take from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever."

But what sort is this God? First he maliciously refused Adam from eating of the tree of knowledge, and, secondly, he said "Adam, where are you?" God does not have foreknowledge? Would he not know from the beginning? And afterwards, he said, "Let us cast him out of this place, lest he eat of the tree of life and live forever." Surely, he has shown himself to be a malicious grudger! And what kind of God is this? For great is the blindness of those who read, and they did not know him. And he said, "I am the jealous God; I will bring the sins of the fathers upon the children until three (and) four generations." And he said, "I will make their heart thick, and I will cause their mind to become blind, that they might not know nor comprehend the things that are said." But these things he has said to those who believe in him and serve him!

Maybe this will stir up discussion.

Inverencial Peace,
Akashic



[edit on 26/11/2005 by AkashicWanderer]

Originally posted by AkashicWanderer

Originally posted by spamandham
The 153 is a coded message for those who were initiates into the mystery.

Are you?

No, my knowledge of the mystery religions is pretty limited. I'm really only interested from an historical perspective.

Originally posted by AkashicWanderer

Not to touch a white cock.

...must resist temptation...

Al, I could understand if your PRIMARY complaint was against any of the many, "I know something you don't know, and I ain't gonna tell you coz I don't reckon you're worthy", "mystery faiths" Spamandham indicated or the Catholic,"through our church is the only way to God but one man, The Pope of the day, can deny it to you", "mystery faith" or the, "Bombing women and children will send me straight to heaven" faith.... but it's Christianity, that teaches all to live a just and kind life because we ALL will be resurrected, as Jesus was, to have our spiritual accounts perfectly balanced and God loves us so much He doesn't want ANY to have to pay up with their resurrected lives, dying the second, permanant death, that keeps copping the loud and public insults while these other faiths are treated with respect.

Question Islam on ATS and a bunch of people will jump on you and call you an Islamaphobe, question OTO and a bunch of masons will jump on you for spreading ignorance and hate....and so on and so on, while these same people will call you every insulting, hatefull and intelect denying name under the sun if you dare to mention you're of the Christian faith....It's a conspiracy I tells ya!

A.W., though you offered us a larger chunk of The Book than most, it still isn't The Whole Book, that does explain 'what went down' to those who seek, with all their heart and mind, to know God and not just please their limited human intellect and personal ego.

I'm not avoiding discussion, it's just this subject is long and detailed but you can begin to understand when you concider that 'unripe fruit' can poison 'babies'. Becoming immortal then would lead to suffering from that poison with no end so He sent the FIRST death to give us all a chance of a SECOND, immortal, perfect life. I know this won't satisfy anyone who wants to believe God is a mean bully rather than perfect love but untill man can create ANYTHING in COMPLETE PERFECTION I can't let go of my faith that God knows what He is doing and like any parent whos rules and actions aren't understood by their children, it is for our own good. God is THE PERFECT FATHER of us ALL and wants us all to accept our ultimate inheritance.

I'm sure the crazy, miserable, angry kids running around everywhere today because no one wants to 'hurt their feeling' with discipline, is an example that can help you understand.

Tell me something. Wasn't the Pisces symbol used by the early Christians who were getting persecuted by the Romans? Y'know, it was used as code to get about? Not suggesting any sinister meaning, it was just there, and the early Christians used it to meet others and pray. I doubt using a symbol results in stealing it. However, swastikas was used by the early Christians as well. Then Hitler stole it, and used it for nerfarious purposes. Hell, swastikas are now forever connected to the Nazis. Yet that symbol pops up everywhere in organized religion. Hindus, Jewish temples, pagan bits, etc. I think symbols just connect everything to everything else. It doesn't matter what the symbol means, it is the message behind the symbol which is important.

[edit on 27/11/05 by MacDonagh]

Originally posted by suzy ryan
Al, I could understand if your PRIMARY complaint was against any of the many.... but it's Christianity, that teaches all to live a just and kind life because we ALL will be resurrected, ... that keeps copping the loud and public insults while these other faiths are treated with respect.

Question Islam on ATS and a bunch of people will jump on you and call you an Islamaphobe, question OTO and a bunch of masons will jump on you for spreading ignorance and hate....and so on and so on, while these same people will call you every insulting, hatefull and intelect denying name under the sun if you dare to mention you're of the Christian faith....It's a conspiracy I tells ya!

Well, to begin with, I don't know if you are in the USA (I seem to think you are not) but, it is here that Christians are drawing considerable resistance because it is here that Evangelicals seem intent on re-drawing our country in such a way as to enforce their religious beliefs. Because our system of government, in 2 of the 3 branches, is based on the "will of the majority" (at least in theory). Of course, the radical right with the help and influence of the Evangelicals are also trying to take over the 3rd branch (the judiciary) but, that's also related since that branch is not supposed to be controlled by majority rule. Christians are in the majority in the USA so, the threat is very real. Non-Christians are justifiably feeling quite threatened by this movement - I include myself. Therefore, the backlash that you percieve is quite real. It isn't that we "hate" Christians or Christianity or anything of the sort. It's simply that there is a threat to our freedom and it is our duty to respond to those kinds of threats. We are supposed to be a country that is secular but respects the rights of all to practice whatever religion they choose while not favoring one religion over another. In spite of the rhetoric, we are not supposed to be a "Christian nation". We were not founded on the principles of Judeo-Christianity. Our founders and our greatest leaders have been very careful to separate their religious views from the manner in which our laws and our system of government is intended to operate. Liberty and justice for all means, just that - ALL. "All" includes even those who do not believe in G-d. Personally, I think it's a pretty fine system and I'd like to preserve it. So, it is quite a natural reaction to fight back against those who would threaten it. But, note, the operative word here is "reaction" - to include defending against threats.

I do take issue with any statement that "it's Christianity, that teaches all to live a just and kind life" because that statement implies some kind exclusivity. Many of us lead just and kind lives without Christianity or any belief in a Supreme Being of any kind. Morality, ethics, civility, etc. are not under the auspices of any religious beliefs. There are, as so many of us have quite correctly pointed out, just as many Christian wrong-doers and evil deeds are there are non-Christian. It may seem that sometimes there is a heavy focus on the evils perpetuated in the name of Christianity but that is only due the the context of the conversation. Certainly, Jews and Muslims have committed acts of atrocity in the name of religion and plenty of non-Abrahamic religions have done the same.

I would take no offense to a thread titled "The Anti-Muslim Conspiracy" - it woud yield quite a good discussion. I'm not nearly as well-versed in the history of Islam as I am in the history of the Jews and Christians but, I plan to begin that study very soon. Still, there are many who could make contributions to that discussion that would be most enlightening, I think.

But, the central point of this and many other discussions of any religions would be the people - the INDIVIDUALS - who have done works of both great good and great evil in the name of their G-d. The history of the human race is filled with such stories!

In conclusion (and I may not have time to write anything more for a while), the perception that Christianity is under attack is both real and imagined. My opinion is that Christianity, especially in the USA, is under a counter-attack or, perhaps more accurately, a spirited defensive effort. I think we (I include myself) are merely trying to repel a Christian take-over attempt. Stop trying to take over our government and our society and you'll see those percieved attacks on Christianity disappear almost immediately.

Try interpreting the title of this thread as "The Defense Against the Christian Conspiracy" - that's how I see it.

There could be peace in our time.

You have voted Al Davison for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have two more votes this month.

Well said man, well said.

Al, I too am appalled at the POLITICAL and FINANCIAL movement in the U.S. that calls itself Christian. It is starting to successfully infect Australia and feeds the conpiracy against Christianity. I agree 'that monster' is a bad thing. Anti-Christians hide behind it and throw dirty, big, lieing rocks at the actual Christian message and ignor the problems of other faiths, such as those you edited out of my quote.

While there has never been a shortage of people who don't like the idea of faith and God, it is still Christianity they use as their recruiting poster child, telling lies about the faith they refuse to recant, no matter how clearly, often and well the truth is explained to them.

I could believe there wasn't a conspiracy against Christianity IF those attacking it, attacked the lies and false doctrines USED to turn it into a political movement BUT they DON'T. They just feed HATE by repeating the lies.

Yes there is reason for a backlash but you ignor the original backlash against the lies spread about what the faith really teaches and the false doctrines used to turn it into a political movement. There has been a growth in the number of Christians BECAUSE people read and studied it for themselves in that first backlash against the harm being done in it's name but their voice is drowned out by bigoted hate.

When loving, tempered Christian voices don't get drowned out then the, "you're all blindly led idiots" card gets played and fear of getting the same lable shuts peoples ears to hearing the simple truth of what the faith actually teaches.

There is no end of people, not of Islam or any faith, who will point out that not all Moslems believe in suicide bombing and the whole faith shouldn't be judged by those who misinterpret the faith yet they are silent in clarifying the difference between Christians and those who use the name for their own purpose.

Another tactic against Christianity can be clearly seen on ATS.
Certain people, of a certain group, will start a thread praising their group but in amoung that selfpraise are insulting, mocking vicious things said against Christianity but dare to join the thread to correct their lies and you are soundly told off and insulted for for daring to balance their 'discussion' with some truth. They have clear rein to continue their spread of hate unchecked.

In the latest example, out of the blue and totally off topic, someone declared Christianity "totaly disgusts" them and that it was "immoral", in their Anti-Christian rant, but I got told off (to put it VERY mildly) for questioning why they didn't at least get a 'warn'.

I'm "SIMPLY ASKING" people to be aware of just how many little ways Christianity is being villified.

Suzy - sorry this has been some of your experiences at ATS - probably out in the real world, too. I don't doubt it - lots of people don't know how to disagree without being disagreeable. Kids are mean sometimes.

I've had a little bit of that but it didn't bother me much. I've raised some very controversial issues regarding the history that is presented in the Bible (both OT and NT) and I thought some of the Christians were going to put out a contract on me!

I love delving into this historical stuff and don't mind chasing a few wild geese to do it. But, it's bizarre how folks will try to shut down or shout down an entire historical discussion between scholars (which I am not) because it may hit on some topic they consider taboo. (For instance, see those threads on the crucifixion story...) Anyway, I have no fear of controversy and I do not acknowledge any subject as taboo - that's why I like it here!