The Anti-Christian conspiracy

If you have a soul, then you are a seperated embryo of God. We(soul containing creatures) are God. We are greater together in mind set than we are apart. Even the Bible's God explains this in the Tower of Babel story.
There is a lot of wise Christian people that should be listened to.
As far as this religious confusion, conflict, or conspiracy, people should realize the real truth as we get closer to a new age of enlightenment, higher consciousness(possible 2012 event), and more disclosure from the government.

[edit on 29-11-2006 by realanswers]

Sorry, I didn't read all the posts, there's like 122 pages, so......

Just what is the argument here that the Bible is not fact. Are you talking about the historical content? or the faith content?

The Bible has been proven time and time again to be historically accurate...people and places and all that.

Along another line, a little bit off topic, but.......
I read somewhere about people denying the existence of yeshua of Nazareth. The argument being made was that he did exist, and their proof was the thousands of documents during, before, and shortly after his life that were about him. Many of these were written by the Romans and the Jews.

Also another side point. They went on to argue that Jesus divinity was provable through documentation(for christians who believe, others will dismiss it). Many of the thousands of documents written about him describe the miracles performed and what not. It also went on to note that the Jews (obviously Christs enemies at the time) also wrote several thousand documents about him, describing his miracles and what not. All of these were based on eyewitness reports and eyewitness testimony. The only thing is that the Jews doubted that his power came from God, but rather from Beezlebub(they were obviously his enemies and tried to demonify him).

Anyways, I believe the Bible is fact. I'm not sure on what you guys are disagreeing is fact, but maybe you could enlighten me so i don't have to read through like 50 pages.

I would appreciate it also if people would not insult me or anything cause of my beliefs, as i'm catholic. I just want a friendly, honest, and subjective discussion on this. I will try not to offend others if they will try not to offend me(hey, sometimes it happens)

So yea, some of you guys need to cool down. Try to respect each other's opinions and have a good ole' fashion debate.

God Bless,
SOSHOOTME

Originally posted by soshootme
Sorry, I didn't read all the posts, there's like 122 pages, so......

Just what is the argument here that the Bible is not fact. Are you talking about the historical content? or the faith content?

The Bible has been proven time and time again to be historically accurate...people and places and all that.

Along another line, a little bit off topic, but.......
I read somewhere about people denying the existence of yeshua of Nazareth. The argument being made was that he did exist, and their proof was the thousands of documents during, before, and shortly after his life that were about him. Many of these were written by the Romans and the Jews.

Also another side point. They went on to argue that Jesus divinity was provable through documentation(for christians who believe, others will dismiss it). Many of the thousands of documents written about him describe the miracles performed and what not. It also went on to note that the Jews (obviously Christs enemies at the time) also wrote several thousand documents about him, describing his miracles and what not. All of these were based on eyewitness reports and eyewitness testimony. The only thing is that the Jews doubted that his power came from God, but rather from Beezlebub(they were obviously his enemies and tried to demonify him).

Anyways, I believe the Bible is fact. I'm not sure on what you guys are disagreeing is fact, but maybe you could enlighten me

so i don't have to read through like 50 pages.

I would appreciate it also if people would not insult me or anything cause of my beliefs, as i'm catholic. I just want a friendly, honest, and subjective discussion on this. I will try not to offend others if they will try not to offend me(hey, sometimes it happens)

So yea, some of you guys need to cool down. Try to respect each other's opinions and have a good ole' fashion debate.

God Bless,
SOSHOOTME

It’s okay that you didn’t read all the pages

The bible has actually been proven to be historically inaccurate
My favorite example, the demonic spirits placed in the swine
They ran down a hill into the sea after that
The nearest body of water is too far away for that to have happened
Unless you give me evidence to support the historical accuracy, I won’t believe it because my research proves otherwise

There are 0 documents to show the existence of jesus (yeshua, whatever you want to call the guy) during his lifetime (I defy you to prove otherwise)
There are certainly 0 documents to show his existence BEFORE his lifetime
There are a couple afterwards, but they are religious texts and must be held to a level of harsh scrutiny because of it

Also, the jews have no problem as seeing Jesus’ power coming from god, they just don’t see him as either messianic or as god

SSM, you can believe the bible is fact all you want, but that belief isn’t proven
It’s all good if you don’t try to use it as evidence or try to push that belief on others

And I think you want an OBJECTIVE discussion (it’s okay, I get them confused sometimes)

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul



The bible has actually been proven to be historically inaccurate

Yeah right. If this was the case it would be front page news. Those that try to disprove the Bible usually end up Christians.

Originally posted by soshootme
The Bible has been proven time and time again to be historically accurate...people and places and all that.

People and places and all that? Sorry, but if you did some research, you could find out for yourself that icons of The Bible may not have lived at all. Adam & Eve is quite a good example, as is the garden of eden. Don't get me wrong, but those are people and places right? Now when have they ever been proven to be historically accurate?

Anyways, I believe the Bible is fact. I'm not sure on what you guys are disagreeing is fact, but maybe you could enlighten me

so i don't have to read through like 50 pages.

Lets start with, the places and people in The Bible are not all historically accurate. Despite popular Christian belief, Moses may not have even been a real person, and outside The Bible there is no evidence to suggest such a migration of Jews across Egypt to escape the Pharoes. Just because it's popular opinion, it does not make it fact. Just like saint said.

"Let your light so shine that they may see your good works and glorify your father in heaven."

And,...

as Gandhi said: "You must be the change you want to see in the world."

I've never heard a debate as to whether Caesar or Pilate existed?

Originally posted by Siren
I've never heard a debate as to whether Caesar or Pilate existed?

That's because there are objective, non religious documents that say they existed. As Shauny said, the only thing that said Jesus existed is the Bible. Other than that, the only documents use the Bible as reference, making them unreliable.

Originally posted by Rasobasi420

Originally posted by Siren
I've never heard a debate as to whether Caesar or Pilate existed?

That's because there are objective, non religious documents that say they existed. As Shauny said, the only thing that said Jesus existed is the Bible. Other than that, the only documents use the Bible as reference, making them unreliable.

You need to educate yourself in the truth. What did historian Flavius Josephus have to say. Your statement is untrue...........plain and simple.

Originally posted by Siren
I've never heard a debate as to whether Caesar or Pilate existed?

When did Caesar and Pilate enter this?

How about we go back to Adam and Eve.. There's no evidence outside The Bible to suggest they were ever around, and the same goes for the Garden of Eden. So a statement like 'The Bible has been proven to show people and places accurately' is false to say the least.

The same goes for Moses, outside of The Bible there is no evidence. It may surprise you to find this out, and that there may not have even been such a migration of Jews across Egypt. The Egyptians never mentioned it. Again there is little, if any, supporting evidence outside of The Bible. And that's where the problems start. Because I say 'Prove Jesus existed' and you come back with 'Hey look, he's mentioned in Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, so he MUST have been real'.

ShaunyBaby,

The name "Adam" in Genesis seems to be a word play with the name for "ground, adamah" from which man was formed (Hess 1997, 31). The Hebrew root word for "Adam" means "red" (Hess 1993, 15).

The historical Adam may be the same man named "Allum" the first king in the Sumerian King List, see The Weld-Blundell Prisim, who lived before the great flood. He was the first king of Eridu which may be the Biblical Eden. The Sumerians of Mesopotamia are the oldest known civilization. Adam is also equated with Adapa, the first sage of Eridu (Shea 1977, 27; Fischer 1996, 308). Shea explains that the "p" in Adapa could change to "m" in Hebrew giving the name Adama (Ibid., 37).

Adapa, or perhaps Adamu, son of Ea, had recieved from his father, the god Ea, wisdom, but not eternal life. He was a semi-divine being and was the wise man and priest of the temple of Ea at Eridu, which he provided with the ritual bread and water. In the exercise of this duty he carried on fishing upon the Persian Gulf.

We learn from the myth that Adapa is instructed in the ways of heaven by Enki/Ea, the Lord of the Sweet Waters, Magick, Arts, Crafts and Wisdom, in the myth called the "broad eared one" (signifying wisdom - the inner hearing that, if listened to, transforms and gives new meaning and light to everything there was, is and will be).

According to myth, Adapa was a mortal from a godly lineage, like many liminal Greek heroes, who stood on the threshold between the two worlds. When Adapa broke the wings of Ninlil, the South Wind that had overturned his fishing boat, Adapa was called to account before Anu. Ea, his patron god, warned him to suitably apologise for his actions, but not to partake of food or drink while he was in heaven, as it would be the food of death. Anu, impressed by Adapa's sincerity offered instead the food of immortality, but Adapa, remembering Enki's advice, refused, and thus Adapa was cheated from the immortality that would have been his.

Excerpted from:
en.wikipedia.org...
www.sacred-texts.com...
www.gatewaystobabylon.com...
www.bibleandscience.com...


[edit on 30-11-2006 by undo]

This has nothing to do with 'Adam & Eve' that are mentioned in The Bible, and the same goes for the Garden of Eden. As far as I know Christians would not accept that their God's creation of humans is derived from Sumerian origins.

However, if we look back at these ancient civilisations, we do find similarities, such as 'Gilgamesh' and 'Noah's Ark'. However, If I ask for evidence of Noah's Ark, I don't expect to hear tales of Gilgamesh, because that's a different story alltogether, as is your Sumerian explanation of Adam.

You asked for evidence outside the bible. What did you expect me to quote, the Declaration of Independence?

The First Book of Adam and Eve

www.hiddenmysteries.com...

Edin, also called Eden



eden [PLAIN] (5x: ED IIIb, Old Babylonian) wr. eden "plain, steppe, open country" Akk. edinu
[1] cuneiform EDIN eden (edimx(EDIN), edin)
+ -0 (5x/100%).
3500 3000 2500 2000 1500 1000 (no date)
[1] 1 4

2 distinct forms attested; click to view forms table.
1. plain, steppe, open country (5x/100%)

~ LEX/ED IIIb/Ebla [[eden]] = EDEN = i3-ti-num2 Ebla Sign List 55. LEX/Old Babylonian/Nippur edin OB Nippur Lu 822.

~ daĝal[wide]LEX/Old Babylonian/Nippur [edin] daĝal OB Nippur Lu 823.

psd.museum.upenn.edu...

So the "Garden" of Eden was a garden of the plain, steppe of the area of Sumer, Akkadia and Babylon. Conversely, the Garden may have been elsewhere and when humans "fell" we were brought or put on this planet, in physical bodies. If you recall the Epic of Gilgamesh, when he visits the figure who represents the biblical Noah, he must travel through gates protected by supernatural beings, down a dark tunnel, to a garden where the plants grow crystals instead of fruit. There he finds the Noah figure, living in Paradise.

www.ancienttexts.org...


[edit on 30-11-2006 by undo]

From Qu'ran


YUSUFALI: Behold, thy Lord said to the angels: "I will create a vicegerent on earth." They said: "Wilt Thou place therein one who will make mischief therein and shed blood?- whilst we do celebrate Thy praises and glorify Thy holy (name)?" He said: "I know what ye know not."
PICKTHAL: And when thy Lord said unto the angels: Lo! I am about to place a viceroy in the earth, they said: Wilt thou place therein one who will do harm therein and will shed blood, while we, we hymn Thy praise and sanctify Thee? He said: Surely I know that which ye know not.
SHAKIR: And when your Lord said to the angels, I am going to place in the earth a khalif, they said: What! wilt Thou place in it such as shall make mischief in it and shed blood, and we celebrate Thy praise and extol Thy holiness? He said: Surely I know what you do not know.

002.031
YUSUFALI: And He taught Adam the names of all things; then He placed them before the angels, and said: "Tell me the names of these if ye are right."
PICKTHAL: And He taught Adam all the names, then showed them to the angels, saying: Inform Me of the names of these, if ye are truthful.
SHAKIR: And He taught Adam all the names, then presented them to the angels; then He said: Tell me the names of those if you are right.

www.usc.edu...

Just getting texts other than the bible that mention Adam

adam [HABITATION] (37x: Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. a2-dam "habitation" Akk. namû
[1] cuneiform A₂.DAM a2-dam
+ -0 (35x/95%); -ma (2x/5%).
3500 3000 2500 2000 1500 1000 (no date)
[1] 1 35

6 distinct forms attested; click to view forms table.
1. habitation (37x/100%)

~ LEX/Ur III/Nippur a2-dam = na-ma-šum PBS 05, 136 [OBGT XI] v 20'.

Akk. namû "living in the steppe, steppe-dweller".

psd.museum.upenn.edu...

Living in the steppe, steppe-dweller. Sounds about right since "steppe" is translated "Eden."

The Qu'ran does not apply as it was based on Judaism, which is, of course, based on the old testimant.

Biblical Characters Whose Existence has been confirmed from Archaeological or secular Historical Sources

Agrippa I or Herod Agrippa Acts 12:1 - called Herod the King; grandson of Herod the Great; King of Judea, Persecuted Christians in Jerusalem.

1. Josephus
2. Contemporary Roman Records
3. Coins with inscription of The Great King Agrippa, Friend of Caesar.
4. Basalt fragment of a Nabatean inscription refers to Agrippa, the King (Could be either I or II).

Agrippa II Acts 25:13 - 26:32 - Son of Agrippa I; ruler of Northern areas of Palestine; Paul appeared before him before going to Rome; Married Bernice.

1. Josephus
2. Contemporary Roman records
3. Coins with likeness & inscription of King Agrippa
4. Basalt fragment (see Agrippa I above)
5. Monumental stone inscription found in Beirut mentions Herod Agrippa and Bernice.

Ahab 1 Kings 16:28 - 8th King of Israel; son of Omri; wicked & idolatrous; married to Jezebel.

1. Cuneiform tablets of Shalmaneser III's at Qarqar.
2. Mesha Stela (Moabite Stone) refers to him as Omri "WP TypographicSymbols">'s son but does not call him by name.

Ahasuerus Esther 1:1 - Ahasuerus is Greek for Xerxes; King in Esther story.

1. Audience Hall at Persepolis has relief of Xerxes with father, Darius.
2. Palace at Persepolis portrays Xerxes on door.
3. Clay tablet archives chronicle his life.
4. Seals found in Egypt are inscribed Xerxes, the great king.
5. Elephantine papyri dated by his reign.
6. Herodotus histories

Ahaz 2 Kings 16:2 - 12th King of Judah; son of Jotham, idolatrous; listed ins Jesus' genealogy (Mt 1:9)

1. Cuneiform inscription of Tiglath Pileser's campaign against Palestine (called Jehoahaz).
2. Seal with inscription belonging to Usna, Minister of Ahaz
3. Bulla with impression Ahaz (son of) Jotham King of Judah.

Ananias Acts 23:2 - Jewish High Priest who opposed Paul

1. Josephus

Annas Luke 3:2 - Jewish High Priest

1. Josephus

Antipas Luke 3:1 - Called Herod the Tetrarch in Bible

1. Josephus
2. Coins carry inscription Herod the Tetrarch
3. Inscription on Cos & Delos name Herod the Tetrarch.



Archelaus Mat 2:22 - Also called Herod Archelaus; son of Herod the great; ruler of Judea & Samaria during Jesus' childhood.

1. Contemporary Histories - Dio Cassius
2. Josephus
3. Coins that have inscription Ethrarch or Herod or Ethrarch Herod.

Aretas IV 2 Cor. 11:32-33 - King at Damascus who arrested Paul

1. Josephus
2. 20 inscriptions use his name & reign for dating.
3. Inscription at Khirbet et Tannur dates setting up of alter to his 2nd year.
4. Inscription at Madeba calls him he who loves his people.
5. Coins with his likeness

Artaxerxes I, Longimanus Ezra 4:7 - King of Persia; allowed Jews to return to Israel.

1. Tomb of Artaxerxes known near Persepolis.
2. Elephantine papyri use dates based on his reign.
3. Herodutus.


Ashurbanipal Ezra 4:10 (NIV) KJV calls his Osapper - Last Assyrian King

1. Library of cuneiform tablets found at Kuyunjik

2. Ruins of buildings with extensive sculptures at Ninevah

3. Annals of Ashurbanipal - clay prism

Augustus Luke 2:2 - Roman emperor during birth of Jesus; full name Gaius Octavius.

1. Full biography found in long Greek & Latin inscription in Ankara, Turkey
2. Inscription celebrating his birthday
3. Coins
4. Statuary
5. Contemporary histories

And that's just the letter "A"

Originally posted by Rasobasi420
The Qu'ran does not apply as it was based on Judaism, which is, of course, based on the old testimant.

Well he said other places besides the bible. So there you go. I guess everyone from mesopotamia, both abrahamic lines are liars? Besides, I showed you using the Penn State Sumerian Dictionary what Adam means and what Eden means. Adam means steppe-dweller. Eden means steppe or plain. So Garden of Eden would mean Garden of steppe or plain.

I'm not trying to be mean. I'm just showing you what I've researched on the subject and what other people have researched on the subject, ranging from scholars, to linguists, to archaeologists, theologians, and many of the sources are secular. It's okay, I promise. It's the history of mesopotamia. You just can't pitch it out because it happens to be woven around a religious belief you don't agree with. Heck, I don't agree with the egyptian religion but that doesn't stop me from studying it with interest and relish. I don't believe they were liars either. In fact, I think all the ancient people just did their best to report what they encountered, said and did.