The Anti-Christian conspiracy

Originally posted by MarkLuitzen
the christians do it them selfs in the way they act.

This is interesting because I've heard the same "case" being made about women who were raped. Usually followed with, "she was asking for it. Look at the way she was walking/talking/smiling/etc."

I'm glad you agree there is an Anti-Christian Conspiracy and am sorry you feel that the Christians "do it them selfs in the way they act" but am uninterested in playing the blame game. Everything is always someone else's fault isn't it? We can never take responsibility for ourselves for the evils we do. Let's stick to the facts.

[edit on 29-11-2006 by saint4God]

Yeeehaw!

I don't know why but suddely i am so Happy that i am not christian!!!
I can see!! My mind is not blinded. I do not need anyone to tell me what to believe.

Because humans are actually able to be good by nature. (at least some humans are) You can follow your own good principles and intentions.

Isn't that what the true meanings of the bible were? To believe in the "Good"? (Sorry I have never read it. I only read stuff i find very very interesting - As i don't read much at all.)

So if you need a book, or some individual to tell you what to believe in.. or what "good" is. Doesn't that imply denying the belief in the good of human beings.. in the good of oneself?

Don't get me wrong. I respect religions, as long they are not abused for manipulation. Because i think to some people they give energy and hope. If abused though.. the consequences are very bad. Not only for individuals, but also for society. :F

Anyway I'd be glad to hear some christian response to my argument:
But PLEASE: Leave out Bible-Quotes and all of those things.. because often when reading "Christian" posts i have to stop at the 3rd line or something.

Really no offense meant here. Some cool and calm, objective christian opinion is very welcome here.

Originally posted by osram
Yeeehaw!

I don't know why but suddely i am so Happy that i am not christian!!!
I can see!! My mind is not blinded. I do not need anyone to tell me what to believe.

Because humans are actually able to be good by nature. (at least some humans are) You can follow your own good principles and intentions.

Isn't that what the true meanings of the bible were? To believe in the "Good"? (Sorry I have never read it. I only read stuff i find very very interesting - As i don't read much at all.)

So if you need a book, or some individual to tell you what to believe in.. or what "good" is. Doesn't that imply denying the belief in the good of human beings.. in the good of oneself?

Don't get me wrong. I respect religions, as long they are not abused for manipulation. Because i think to some people they give energy and hope. If abused though.. the consequences are very bad. Not only for individuals, but also for society. :F

Anyway I'd be glad to hear some christian response to my argument:
But PLEASE: Leave out Bible-Quotes and all of those things.. because often when reading "Christian" posts i have to stop at the 3rd line or something.

Really no offense meant here. Some cool and calm, objective christian opinion is very welcome here.

My personal thought on this is the key ingredients, which are:

1. Faith in something bigger than yourself with an omniscient ability, keeps you humble.

2. Faith in something more powerful than yourself with the ability to change any aspect of your or anyone else's reality in this physical dimension and even in the unseen dimensions, opens up countless possilbilities for the future and the present, that might seem unavailable otherwise.

3. Faith in something more loving than yourself, reaffirms that although you may find yourself or your fellow humans or both, occassionally lacking in fairness, love, kindness, justice, forgiveness and so on, that there is an ultimate source of loving, kind justice in the universe, that never falters or changes, and who knows the truth of every situational problem and will eventually deliver true justice and not justice predicated on how much money you make, your political affiliation, the color of your skin, your gender, your weight, your country of origin, your race, your accent, and etc.

Had my husband not had faith in something bigger than a doctor, I would be dead right now. The doctors told him i would most likely be a vegetable and that there was no activity in my brain (I was in a coma). The insurance company man showed up to put pressure on him to allow the hospital to turn off the ventilator that was keeping me alive. He prayed, got the message that he should contact my sister and have her fly out to where we were to talk to me, and that if she did, I would wake up. It doesn't matter, at this juncture, who did the healing, but because he believed he wouldn't let them turn off the machines which were keeping me alive, until he had a chance to get my sister out to talk to me, I lived long enough to be revived. Had he listened to the doctors and the insurance company, they would've legally killed me without a second thought, and my kids would've been without their mom and hubby without his wife in some of the hardest years of their lives.

Faith comes in handy, but it has to be a faith bigger than you or your circumstances or other people. It has to transcend your reality.

[edit on 29-11-2006 by undo]

Originally posted by osram
Isn't that what the true meanings of the bible were? To believe in the "Good"?

Nope, you're one letter off. It is "to believe in the God".

Originally posted by osram
(Sorry I have never read it. I only read stuff i find very very interesting - As i don't read much at all.)

I'd recommend reading it. It's a lot easier to get answers that way than by asking questions of people who have.

Originally posted by osramDoesn't that imply denying the belief in the good of human beings.. in the good of oneself?

Not at all, "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways," declares the LORD." - Isaiah 55:8

Originally posted by osram
Anyway I'd be glad to hear some christian response to my argument:

Sure thing.

Originally posted by osram
But PLEASE: Leave out Bible-Quotes and all of those things.. because often when reading "Christian" posts i have to stop at the 3rd line or something.

What can a person say better than God?

Originally posted by osram
Really no offense meant here. Some cool and calm, objective christian opinion is very welcome here.

Glad to help however I can.

[edit on 29-11-2006 by saint4God]

Originally posted by shaunybaby
But not as 'much' as Christian holiday symbols are displayed, they're not as 'in-your-face'. As I was driving through a nearby town, I couldn't help but notice the rows upon rows of Christmas lights with a few lit up 'Merry Christmas' signs. I've never ever seen any Jewish or Muslim holidays celebrated in the same way so publically.

Originally posted by saint4God
So...you're saying Christians are responsible for putting up Jewish and Muslim decorations?

Not sure what you're getting at here.

The point I was making is that Christmas is 'in-your-face' whether you like it or not. Whereas, Jewish or Muslim holidays are much more subtle. I don't celebrate other religious holidays, so why celebrate Christmas? The main reason is that Christmas has become such a commercial public holiday, that it's lost all religious meaning, not for all, but for the majority.

Originally posted by saint4God
You'd compared the Da Vinci Code, a work of declared fiction with the Bible, a work of declared fact. I understand the comparison very well and think you'd put it clearly.

You obviously haven't understood the comparison, and obviously haven't understood The Bible at all. It is NOT a work of 'declared fact'. The comparison I was making was with two fictional pieces of work, and showing that people take The Da Vinci Code and The Bible and try to pass both of as fact. There is no difference between a person who says The Da Vinci Code is fact and a person that says The Bible is fact. Again, history is NOT opinion, hence The Bible is not a declared factual piece of work.

Originally posted by saint4God
I got the point. Why you cannot see the difference between written fiction and fact is beyond me. Also, I have not forgotten my education, so "re-education" would be a redundant effort. Further, one cannot become educated through themselves, rather education comes externally from a source and is comprehended by the one receiving it.

The problem here is that your trying to say The Bible is fact. That's your opinion. And history is not opinions, history is fact. So maybe you can start to come to terms with The Bible being a work of fiction.

Originally posted by saint4God
Verify your sources. It's that simple. I'm not going to do that homework for you because it is only beneficial when we do it ourselves.

So it is possible to educate oneself. I thought you said it wasn't possible?

Lets recap:

Da Vinci Code - Fiction
The Bible - Fiction

Any person that tries to pass either off as 'fact' are as ignorant as each other. There are people who believe The Da Vinci Code is fact, and there are people who believe The Bible is fact. The only problem is that they are both works of fiction. The sooner you can learn this saint, then the sooner we may be able to have an adult conversation that isn't bombarded with childish comments like 'The Bible is fact'. Yeah, Noah's Ark really happened saint, it really did, nudge nudge, wink wink. I guess that story of the three little pigs and the wolf that blew their houses down was true aswell.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
Lets recap:

Da Vinci Code - Fiction
The Bible - Fiction

Any person that tries to pass either off as 'fact' are as ignorant as each other. There are people who believe The Da Vinci Code is fact, and there are people who believe The Bible is fact. The only problem is that they are both works of fiction. The sooner you can learn this saint, then the sooner we may be able to have an adult conversation that isn't bombarded with childish comments like 'The Bible is fact'. Yeah, Noah's Ark really happened saint, it really did, nudge nudge, wink wink. I guess that story of the three little pigs and the wolf that blew their houses down was true aswell.

THANK YOU

You have voted shaunybaby for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have used all of your votes for this month.

you deserve that
this post is more than deserving of a way above vote

Originally posted by shaunybaby
The point I was making is that Christmas is 'in-your-face' whether you like it or not. Whereas, Jewish or Muslim holidays are much more subtle.

Either it is freedom of speech or it is not. Your subjective qualitative judgement is not law even if you'd like it to be.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
I don't celebrate other religious holidays, so why celebrate Christmas?

It is your right to celebrate it...or not. Just as it is my right to celebrate it.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
The main reason is that Christmas has become such a commercial public holiday, that it's lost all religious meaning, not for all, but for the majority.

No dispute here.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
You obviously haven't understood the comparison, and obviously haven't understood The Bible at all.

You obvioiusly don't know what I understand.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
It is NOT a work of 'declared fact'.

Yes it is:

Daniel 10:21
"but first I will tell you what is written in the Book of Truth."

Matthew 5:18
"I tell you the truth..."

Matthew 8:10
"When Jesus heard this, he was astonished and said to those following him, "I tell you the truth..."

Matthew 10:23
"I tell you the truth..."

Matthew 10:42
"And if anyone gives even a cup of cold water to one of these little ones because he is my disciple, I tell you the truth..."

Matthew 11:11
"I tell you the truth..."

Matthew 17:20
"He replied, "Because you have so little faith. I tell you the truth..."

Matthew 18:13
"And if he finds it, I tell you the truth..."

Matthew 19:23
"Then Jesus said to his disciples, "I tell you the truth..."

Matthew 19:28
"Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth..."

Matthew 21:21
"Jesus replied, "I tell you the truth..."

Matthew 26:13
"I tell you the truth..."

Mark 11:23
"I tell you the truth..."

Mark 12:43
"Calling his disciples to him, Jesus said, "I tell you the truth..."

Mark 14:9
"I tell you the truth..."

Mark 14:18
"While they were reclining at the table eating, he said, "I tell you the truth..."

Luke 4:24
"I tell you the truth..."

John 3:3
"In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth..."

John 3:5
"Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth..."

John 5:25
"I tell you the truth..."

John 6:32
"Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth..."

John 8:34
"Jesus replied, "I tell you the truth..."

John 10:1
"I tell you the truth..."

John 13:16
"I tell you the truth..."

John 13:21
"After he had said this, Jesus was troubled in spirit and testified, "I tell you the truth..."

John 16:7
"But I tell you the truth..."

John 16:13
"But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth."

John 19:35
"The man who saw it has given testimony, and his testimony is true. He knows that he tells the truth, and he testifies so that you also may believe."

Mark 7:25
"In fact, as soon as she heard about him, a woman whose little daughter was possessed by an evil spirit came and fell at his feet."

John 9:37
"Jesus said, "You have now seen him; in fact, he is the one speaking with you."

John 18:37
"You are a king, then!" said Pilate. Jesus answered, "You are right in saying I am a king. In fact, for this reason I was born, and for this I came into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone on the side of truth listens to me."

Acts 2:32
"God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of the fact."

Acts 13:34
"The fact that God raised him from the dead, never to decay, is stated in these words: " 'I will give you the holy and sure blessings promised to David.'"

Certainly this is not a comprehensive list, but is a good start. Add my name to the list of people who declare it as fact.

[edit on 29-11-2006 by saint4God]

Sorry saint. But that is an example of a logical fallacy known as Begging the Question and cannot be used in a serious debate. Try using a valid source other than the bible and you may get a better response.

Originally posted by Rasobasi420
Sorry saint. But that is an example of a logical fallacy known as Begging the Question and cannot be used in a serious debate. Try using a valid source other than the bible and you may get a better response.

Shauny said it was not a declared fact. I have proven that many people have declared it a fact, myself included. If there's difficulty comprehending that because of the "rules of serious debating", that's not my problem.

And of course all of this is spin to the real issue (threads do have a topic in a subject line) at hand. Fortunately on this thread, spin favors the point being proven.

[edit on 29-11-2006 by saint4God]

Originally posted by saint4God
Either it is freedom of speech or it is not. Your subjective qualitative judgement is not law even if you'd like it to be.

But that doesn't take away from the fact that Christmas is more in your face than any other religious holiday. I don't even 'know' when there are any Jewish or Muslim holidays, because those are normally kept within their own communities. Christmas and Easter for some reason, seem to be universally accepted as public holidays, rather than religious holidays.

I'm all 'for' freedom of speech, but then surely we should all celebrate Ramadan, or have Ramadan symbols strung across the towns and cities in public celebration of this holiday?

Originally posted by shaunybaby
I don't celebrate other religious holidays, so why celebrate Christmas?

Originally posted by saint4God
It is your right to celebrate it...or not. Just as it is my right to celebrate it.

I'm not complaining, It's just wierd that there are many non-Christians that celebrate Christmas and Easter, but they almost certainly don't do so for other religious holidays.

Originally posted by saint4God
Yes it is:

Daniel 10:21
"but first I will tell you what is written in the Book of Truth."

Matthew 5:18
"I tell you the truth..."

*Other quotes from the book of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John*

Acts 2:32
"God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of the fact."

Acts 13:34
"The fact that God raised him from the dead, never to decay, is stated in these words: " 'I will give you the holy and sure blessings promised to David.'"

So you're using the 'I told you so' arguement to prove The Bible is fact?

The 'fact' that the four gospels were written 'after' Jesus' death, then no they could not be 100% sure of the events surrounding Jesus' life. Rather self-indulgent to start a phrase, passage, sentence with 'I tell you the truth..'

Are you saying that if in the Da Vinci Code, Dan Brown put at the start 'All events are based on factual events.. I tell you the truth' then you would therefore class that book as factual? Because that's what you're doing with The Bible.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul

You have voted shaunybaby for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have used all of your votes for this month.

you deserve that
this post is more than deserving of a way above vote

Originally posted by saint4God
Shauny said it was not a declared fact. I have proven that many people have declared it a fact, myself included. If there's difficulty comprehending that because of the "rules of serious debating", that's not my problem.

Declaring something a fact by people ignorant to the definition of fact, does not make it a fact. If I said the moon is made of cheese, and have a bunch of text "confirming" this from the big book of moon cheese, does that make the moon cheesy?

Okay, Shaunybaby,

Christmas is really not Jesus' birthday. But people celebrate it on that day, because 1700 years ago or so, the HRE decided to stop acknowledging the pagan god the holiday normally was for, and started acknowledging Jesus' birthday there instead.

That many other old beliefs also worship some god or event on or around that time frame, also makes it convenient for them since they can get better shopping deals and take part in the general festivities with their own particular name for it.

If we were practicing legallism, we would worship Jesus only on His real birthday, but I think He knows what we mean. However, there are people out there that have a problem with that, so the bible says, we are to avoid appearances of evil and to avoid casting stumbling blocks. To solve the problem, I just don't openly celebrate Christmas as a christian holiday, for the sake of those who stumble all over it and instead, I treat it like any other government holiday.

That people want to give or get presents on that day, is really no different to me than any other day of the year (i mean, who doesn't want gifts? on thursday, friday, saturday, sunday, etc). Logic, it's about common sense and compassion for those around you. If the person really stumbles on it, I just don't give them a present or send them a card or even mention it, so they aren't upset about it.

Legalism sucketh.

Originally posted by Rasobasi420

Originally posted by saint4God
Shauny said it was not a declared fact. I have proven that many people have declared it a fact, myself included. If there's difficulty comprehending that because of the "rules of serious debating", that's not my problem.

Declaring something a fact by people ignorant to the definition of fact, does not make it a fact. If I said the moon is made of cheese, and have a bunch of text "confirming" this from the big book of moon cheese, does that make the moon cheesy?

oo

it's times like this i wish i didn't have a rolling chair, you made me tip it over from laughter!

anyway, saint
mark twain's masterpiece the adventures of huckleberry finn tells you you can be prosecuted for taking it seriously at the beginning, does that mean it has that power?

a book can claim any number of things, even that said book is true, but that does not yield truth

a religious text is by default not a universally accepted FACT or TRUTH unless we have 100% of people on the earth accepting the religion of that text
and even then, all the people would have to agree to literal interpretation

so, not even all christians interpret the bible as completly factual

Originally posted by shaunybaby
I'm all 'for' freedom of speech, but then surely we should all celebrate Ramadan, or have Ramadan symbols strung across the towns and cities in public celebration of this holiday?

If you wish to celebrate Ramadan, certainly your right. If you want to post Ramadan posters in a public space, certainly your right.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
I'm not complaining, It's just wierd that there are many non-Christians that celebrate Christmas and Easter, but they almost certainly don't do so for other religious holidays.

I agree and think that is weird too.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
So you're using the 'I told you so' arguement to prove The Bible is fact?

You'd stated the Bible was not a declared fact, I was demonstrating that it was. If it was taken to mean "I told you so" that's fine, but not purposed in a negative nor demeaning way.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
The 'fact' that the four gospels were written 'after' Jesus' death, then no they could not be 100% sure of the events surrounding Jesus' life.

You'd have to ignore the fact I'd quoted in bold from 2 Peter to say that. If you're going to ignore that fact, I wonder then how many other facts you choose to ignore.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
Rather self-indulgent to start a phrase, passage, sentence with 'I tell you the truth..'

This is a declaration of fact.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
Are you saying that if in the Da Vinci Code, Dan Brown put at the start 'All events are based on factual events..

"based upon" and "are" are two different phrases entirely. "Based upon" means "I got my ideas from reality and have included my fiction" whereas "are" means is, as in, it is a fact.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
I tell you the truth' then you would therefore class that book as factual?

This is a declaration. We all have the choice to accept it as true or call Jesus Christ a liar.

Originally posted by Rasobasi420
If I said the moon is made of cheese,

Then you would be a liar since you know differently. Even if you did not know, it would still make it a lie whether conscious of the fact or not.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
anyway, saint
mark twain's masterpiece the adventures of huckleberry finn tells you you can be prosecuted for taking it seriously at the beginning, does that mean it has that power?

None whatsoever. Huckleberry Fin is neither declared the truth (as proven by the statement here) nor is written with any authority of enforcement of the declaration.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
a book can claim any number of things, even that said book is true, but that does not yield truth

See above.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
a religious text is by default not a universally accepted FACT or TRUTH unless we have 100% of people on the earth accepting the religion of that text
and even then, all the people would have to agree to literal interpretation

Ah, so by all people agreeing we have a fact? I'm glad you're not a scientist. There's a definition of both fact and truth. Here's a good start:

www.m-w.com...

Please send complaints to:
Merriam-Webster, Inc.
47 Federal Street
P.O. Box 281
Springfield, MA 01102

And be sure to let them know why they have their definitions wrong.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
so, not even all christians interpret the bible as completly factual

Good thing we're not peopletians huh? We'd be confused. Fortunately for us, there is One who gets it right. *psst, it's in the name * We can go to that source and ask. We can even read what is written from Him (as most answers can be found there). If we start "interpreting" things as people, then that is a human mistake we should recognize and correct.

[edit on 29-11-2006 by saint4God]

Originally posted by saint4God

Originally posted by Rasobasi420
If I said the moon is made of cheese,

Then you would be a liar since you know differently. Even if you did not know, it would still make it a lie whether conscious of the fact or not.

saint, you know that you're taking the whole thing out of context, it was an example, why not try replying to the rest of the post?

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
saint, you know that you're taking the whole thing out of context, it was an example, why not try replying to the rest of the post?

Because that's all it comes down to. Is the truth being spoke or isn't it? The "if" scenario is regarding a lie. The suggestion too is that the Bible is a lie, that Christ is a liar. If a person does not believe Christ when he says, "I tell you the truth" then they call him a liar. How hard is that? It is true, or it is not true? Why not reply on the topic of the thread madness? Again, spin here works towards the thread topic's favor. Or, is this a demonstration of "If you cannot convince them, confuse them. -Harry S Truman" ?


[edit on 29-11-2006 by saint4God]

Saint, now you're doublespeaking like a politician. BTW, what is the definition of "is"?

define:fact
An indisputable truth.

Since the Bible is, and always has been in dispute, then it is not completely factual.

And using the bible to prove it's factual basis is like using Winnie the Pooh to prove the existance ofthe 100 acre wood.

Do you see the logic in that?

Originally posted by Rasobasi420
Since the Bible is, and always has been in dispute, then it is not completely factual.

A fact is not based on popular opinion. Sorry Rasobasi, it is not.

Originally posted by Rasobasi420
And using the bible to prove it's factual basis is like using Winnie the Pooh to prove the existance ofthe 100 acre wood.

There is no Winnie the Pooh nor 100 acre wood where Winnie the Pooh lives and you know that for a fact. I know that for a fact too. The author has not declared this to be a fact, nor does he have any way to show us it is a fact.

Originally posted by Rasobasi420
Do you see the logic in that?

Just because you can list a fiction book means nothing. I can list fiction books too. Big deal.

Okay spindoctors, we ready to get back on track? Or are we going to deliberate the confusion people apparenly have between fact and fiction. I'll contend that each one of us here knows the difference and this is a stupidly pointless argument that wastes time and insults intelligence.