A quick question to those who have faith...

a reply to: AY6111306

a reply to: Seede -- There are several references in The Bible to Christ, Jeremiah, and Job having a premortal existence. The below link provides scriptural references to this question. [source] - www.churchofjesuschrist.org... ang=eng

You are greatly confused and definitely wrong. You quoted the KJV bible of John 1:1 and then interpreted the KJV quote with the NWT bible of Jehovah Witness. Very cleverly done but not true at all.

1611 KJV bible
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

NWT of the JW's interjected "a god" which changes the entire doctrine of the Nazarenes.

Eldin Ricks is a LDS and the bible of the LDS is the 1611 KJV bible. In that light you must be either a JW or really messed up in your understanding of how you quote one doctrine and interpret that same quote into another doctrine.

The "Word" of The Most High was translated to His creation and into flesh and blood and became known as Jesus the son of God as well as the son of man. in that respect Jesus did have preexistence as the "Word" of The Most High Yahuah.

The apostle Paul also says that in the days of Moses—more than twelve hundred years before Jesus was born—the children of Israel “drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.” (1 Cor. 10:4.)

As is understood by the Nazarene's, Christ is referenced as being both "The Word of God" and Jesus just as was discussed in the above post. Therefore Christ is Jesus and Jesus was the "Word" and the "Word" was and now is The Most High.

2. Jeremiah had a premortal existence. Through revelation the prophet Jeremiah learned something about the preexistence of his own soul. The Lord spoke to him and said, “Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.” (Jer. 1:5.)

Jeremiah 1:5 - 6 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
Then said I, Ah, Lord GOD! behold, I cannot speak: for I am a child.

Jeremiah had no remembrance of preexistence but God being without time and with foreknowledge knew that Jeremiah would come into existence as is shown in scriptures. This has nothing to do with pre existing.

I have read and examined this source and find nothing of a terrestrial creation pre existing in accordance with the Nazarene teachings.

a reply to: Seede

I don't believe I am.
You said, "You are greatly confused and definitely wrong. You quoted the KJV bible of John 1:1 and then interpreted the KJV quote with the NWT bible of Jehovah Witness."
I neither quoted nor interpreted anything. I made a statement in response to your question and shared a link to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints website. As I said in my original response, I did not reply or share a link in order to debate a matter of faith, but simply to provide the original poster (gallop) with a reference of a Church that believes in pre-existence.

p.s. saying "In that light you must be either a JW or really messed up in your understanding" both turns off interest in a discussion as well as shows a potential lack of insight (as it seems odd that you would think someone providing a link to one denomination's website would not be of that faith.)

www.churchofjesuschrist.org...

originally posted by: DISRAELI
a reply to: Akragon
This is about the odd relationship between time and eternity.
Only the knowledge of Jeremiah was (from God's viewpoint) "before" Jeremiah was conceived. Not Jeremiah himself.
The modern desperate obsession with the idea of reincarnation is not there in the Bible, which is why people have to work so hard and so imaginatively in order to create these references.

So you're good with the idea that you know the mind of God through your book...

It is said that its one way or the other in Christian theology... basically up or down... yet what IF Judgement is returning to learn what you haven't? Not forgetting the fact that there are a few places you can go after the death of the body...

Its not a modern idea... in fact it predates all biblical material... and IS in the bible... like it or not...

Most references were probably removed from the real teachings due to the fact that said idea removes the need for the church...

a reply to: Akragon
That's the other get-out line, isn't it?
You've got "Paul was evil" as an excuse for taking out anything you don't like, and "references were removed" as an excuse for adding in anything that you do like.
I have it on good authority that Karl Marx was a devout believer in Capitalism, and thought that the unscrupulous exploitation of downtrodden workers by the wealthy could only be a good thing- but all the passages saying so were secretly removed from the official edition of the Communist Manifesto.

originally posted by: BELIEVERpriest
a reply to: Specimen88

By the time Jesus was born, Judaism was already shattered into dozens of sects, each having their own interpretation; much like today's denominational Christianity. So, I don't think there was much left to Hellenize. I'm a believer in Christ, so if you ask me, God temporarily removed the Word from the Jews and gave it to the Gentiles for a time, until the Jews are ready to be grafted back in. That's what's taught in Romans 11.

The NT is written by Jewish disciples to Gentiles. If anything, they taught Jewish culture to a world that didn't really understand the Jews. That doesn't seem like Hellenization to me, but more like diffusion.

Now if you want to talk about Hellenization of a religion, that's what Constantine did to the Christians in his kingdom. He got Roman paganism (which is but an iteration of Hellenistic paganism), and created a "Christian" religion out of it.

Lol no...no...

Actually it has had plenty of time to be Hellenized, unlike Judaism and it earlier dogma( which isnt that different from the later.) Christianity does heavily rely on philosophies and sayings of man who is depicted in speaking phrases or proverbially characters with meaning or lessons to them?


Why is it that Christianity focuses ethics and critical thinking to an extent. Why is Paul the very first christian, usually claimed to have writing similar to a great greek philosopher?

Dont believe me, look at revelations, and it symbology trying to get the reader to think.

Yea but he did play a significant role in canonizing the very word that most of you would call God, and left large portions of those books out.

And if I'm not wrong they were the one who gave Paul all the credit to that extent too.

Jesus being the Lord of the Dead and Satan falling like thunder sound like metaphorical paradox of clashing believes.

originally posted by: DISRAELI
a reply to: Akragon
That's the other get-out line, isn't it?
You've got "Paul was evil" as an excuse for taking out anything you don't like, and "references were removed" as an excuse for adding in anything that you do like.
I have it on good authority that Karl Marx was a devout believer in Capitalism, and thought that the unscrupulous exploitation of downtrodden workers by the wealthy could only be a good thing- but all the passages saying so were secretly removed from the official edition of the Communist Manifesto.

No man.. Its just a fact... its in the bible... wrote a thread on that fact a while back

Reincarnation in the bible

has nothing to do with Paul.. and i've never once said he was "pure evil" lol... i don't need to remove paul from the bible... i don't even need to consider most of his words... leave them where they are, they just do nothing for me...

and i say references were removed because there are clear indications of life before birth, and death in the bible...

You don't have to accept that and i would only assume you wouldn't... but its there for anyone to read and decide...

it existed before Christianity... even in Judaism... and ye know who was judaistic IF that's even a word... lol

In any case, I respect you brother, and you're welcome to your beliefs... I personally don't like to put limits on God

You seem to have little problem with that all things considered in this convo…

originally posted by: gallop
It is often spoken of, life after death. Where we ascend to realms of the spiritual, to heaven... We take our conscious selves to that plane of existence, and meet our long lost kin... and spend eternity in paradise with god.

But... Why is there never any mention of life before birth?

?

Not really a discussion point, I guess... more I just want someone to think about it, and have a very good reply.

Good question! You are on the right track. The church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints speaks of life before birth. We in fact all lived with Heavenly Father before coming here.