A quick question to those who have faith...

a reply to: gallop
I did answer your question succintly. I said "Nothing in my source of faith suggests there was a life before birth.". And again I said " There are scriptural statements about resurrection life, none about "previous life"." Those are succinct and complete answers to the original question about why Christian teaching says nothing about previous lives. Everything else I said was a comment on your own reply. You were trying to sort out a religious issue in a philosphical way

Look, I've been a teenage atheist in my time. I, too, have wriiten remarks in my diary about "standing on my own two feet in the universe" and other people using crutches. I've been for long walks trying to get round the fact that Big Bang theory doesn't improve on Creation theory as a way of explaining the origin of the universe.
You addressed your question to people who have faith. But people who have faith need to respond in terms of faith. As I see your problem you're trying to fit religion into a philosophical strait-jacket. Your issue of "if we start from nothing, we must end in nothing" is a phiioophical one. Once you turn it into a relgious question (and this is the faith forum, not the philosophy forum), then the power of God comes into the equation, and that makes all the difference.

We are able to start from nothing and continue into eternity because the power of God can accomplish both. Is that succinct enough for you?

a reply to: DISRAELI

Oh good grief.. I stopped at teenage atheist.

I'm almost 50 years old and questioning my lot in life, not for my benefit, but for those I would deny. I'm watching an elderly parent succumb to life, yet reaching out to the church. I've watched my ex become a born again.

Dont talk to me about teenage #... you're not the god damned prior.

If there is no lofe before birth, there is no life after death. I have my answer from a religious man.

Cheers.

a reply to: gallop
No; THIS was the answer you got from a religious man;

"We are able to start from nothing and continue into eternity because the power of God can accomplish both."
Obviously you should have continued reading one sentence further.

originally posted by: Hecate666

a reply to: Raggedyman

You cheeky such and such. You couldn't be more wrong if you actively tried for the next 100 years. Your response shows me that you are merely projecting.
If you knew me you'd be so ashamed about your very flippant prejudice you'd never sleep again.

I don't have to explain more to you, just that very rarely has anyone been more wrong about me ever in the 52 years I have spent on this earth so far.

I have seen and experienced and done more spiritual stuff that you can even imagine. I can only assume you believe in god. That would explain your inability to think before you write.

You have watched Dawkins and Hitchens and think you understand the bible

I read your post, it drips of ignorance and shallow comprehension of a book written 2000 plus years ago, you should be embarrassed penning your thought, carnage is your existentialism

But jesting or jousting aside

Prove this for me please, it’s a joke, fanciful diatribe

“Nature is mighty and all encompassing and can do everything it needs without any consciousness or plan. It is just a very ingenious program that can't even work differently because it just is.”

You just proved more wrong than you suggest I am, nature is hell evolving, humanity is evil manifesting

Common sense is not spiritual psycho babble, life is not esoteric verbal babble and creation is a constant decay into disarray and rabble

Don’t think you understand the bible, you don’t, don’t think you understand christianity either, maybe spirituality but that means nothing to me

a reply to: Hecate666

It doesn’t really need one, but out life/reality doesn’t need an afterlife either...


We wish there was an afterlife , just like we wish there was a sky daddy...

Big difference between what we wish and what is needed like the laws of physics or for logic and math.

originally posted by: JustJohnny
a reply to: Hecate666

It doesn’t really need one, but out life/reality doesn’t need an afterlife either...


We wish there was an afterlife , just like we wish there was a sky daddy...

Big difference between what we wish and what is needed like the laws of physics or for logic and math.

No JJ
you are terrified of that sky daddy
That sky daddy is so horrifying you try and replace it with nihilism and science

Oddly, He is not what you imaging Him to be

You only fear what you don’t know

g
a reply to: gallop

Great question. My mom is very spiritual. She literally spends a couple hours a day in prayer and contemplation. All her friends are involved in faith practices... mostly Catholic, which may surprise some folks. She has been "born again" since the 70s. In the Charismatic Movement, which has been barely tolerated by the Catholic formal structure, one receives the Gifts of the Spirit, such as prophecy, healing, speaking in tongues, and a few others.

I was "baptized in the Spirit" as a teen. At around 19 though, I quit the Catholic Church...and I also quit the Charismatic Movement. Transitioning from the very supportive teen group, to the adult group, which was populated to a large extent, by very damaged people, alienated me.

I thought I was an Atheist for a couple years. Later I realized I was just mad at God. But, I looked into many spiritual systems...and eventually settled into my own kind of practice, which incorporated elements of many of them. I am not a Christian. However, I do know many who are truly good and non-judgemental folks. It's just that I believe that God/the Universe/Source/The All/ Fying Spaghetti Monster/Whatever, is much cooler, than most people give It credit for.

At any rate, I believe in reincarnation, which my mom believes is wrong, and probably prays for me about it all the time...even though we do share most beliefs about the nature of our existence. My encapsulation to her about it, is that I don't think I'm a guy with a soul. I think the essential me, is a soul with a guy...or rather multiple guys/gals. And that Eternity is not just time piled upon more time...but a timeless state, where it is always just Now, for everyone at that level....which isn't directly apparent, here in 3D reality.

This to me, is the point of incarnating at all. To evolve as soul, by participating in this game/puzzle/ride experientially...and making our own free will choices. This necessitates coming in with no memory of the rest. The animal nature of humans, is visceral, biological and provides the stimulus for evolving ourselves. So logically, I don't see how a duality framework, could function, with just one go at it.

Ultimately, to my mind, it has to be physics. That we don't understand all of it yet, is beside the point. Or perhaps, is exactly the point. Maybe that is the solve for this puzzle. If or when we get there, I believe all the science and spiritual stuff will have to resolve. Maybe Arthur C Clarke, was a prophet.

Be well.

ETA: maybe a better question, is do you believe in "time", other than just another parameter, in 3D reality?

originally posted by: scraedtosleep
a reply to: gallop

Or do we come from the infinity of nothingness, to exist for a brief time, only to return to an infinite nothingness...

Quantum physics has a lot to say about this.

Yes it does.

originally posted by: gallop
It is often spoken of, life after death. Where we ascend to realms of the spiritual, to heaven... We take our conscious selves to that plane of existence, and meet our long lost kin... and spend eternity in paradise with god.

But... Why is there never any mention of life before birth?

?

Not really a discussion point, I guess... more I just want someone to think about it, and have a very good reply.

The control system that is religion doesn’t work in reverse like that.

a reply to: gallop

I think life is an emergent phenomenon. It is the product of abstract structure (the soul as a format), and animation, which is caused by spirit.

So to answer your question, I think the soul has always existed before birth as an inanimate construct in God's mind, and the spirit has always existed, as God is spirit; however, its not until birth that spirit animates the soul. The result is what we call life.

a reply to: Raggedyman

Lol I have no fear of “grown folks Santa”..

a reply to: gallop

If there is no life before birth, there is no life after death.

Do you mind if I ask why you feel that way?

Everything (except for God) has to start somewhere, why don't you believe it starts here for us?

God already created the angels before He created us. They have free will too. The Bible tells us that they will be judged differently from us, only from the stand point that they have always known who God was from their very beginnings. Whether they chose to stay with God or abandon Him is their decision to make.

Yep, if we are caught in the devils bargain

We probably knew each other before...agreed to come down here in a mortal body and agreed to be thrown into chance and time. A dirty old place.......

And then the gap theory......between Gen 1 and 2

originally posted by: Hecate666
a reply to: gallop

I never understood why reincarnation or 'life after death' needs a god/master/sky daddy at all?
Nature is mighty and all encompassing and can do everything it needs without any consciousness or plan. It is just a very ingenious program that can't even work differently because it just is.

All life and evolution and the whole universe and beyond is part of this equation. Therefore it would be perfectly logical that when people die and there is something afterwards it too belongs to the way Nature works.
Why, when and how will these megalomeniac/oppressive and highly manipulative gods come into it?

Serious question.

Brilliant - Huzza.

originally posted by: DISRAELI
a reply to: gallop
Nothing in my source of faith suggests there was a life before birth.

But other faiths do speak of 'life' between 'lives'. Even Christianity has reincarnation.

a reply to: FyreByrd

In Christianity, it's called resurrection and it's a one time event that transitions from a human body to a spiritual body after death. There is no human reincarnation.

originally posted by: gallop
a reply to: Hecate666

I actually agree with this. If I were to be inclined to consider that we came from, and return to, something.

I guess my point was, where does this thing that is considered a soul, come from.. if it is birth, wherever it goes, surely is a crowded place. Giving us a place in the 'afterlife'..

Or do we come from the infinity of nothingness, to exist for a brief time, only to return to an infinite nothingness...

It removes the burden of belief. And denies us hope.. but I think, ultimately more realistic..

Good questions all.

Today my constantly evolving atheistic beliefs include:

One, that soul and spirit are two separate concepts/ideas/realities....

Soul is temporary and the spritual side of your personality - the repository of your good/bad thoughts/words/deeds during this lifetime.

Spirit on the other had is either the speck of the ultimate divine in one or the eternal piece of 'you' that you carry between lives (see Atman in Hinduism). Myself, I ken to the first definition. I don't believe there is an eternal 'me', personhood that evolves as a separate entity through many thousands/millions of lives.

However, to address your core question of where did we come from and where are we going I believe we come from a 'spiritual' (meaning that we can't measure this dimension of reality) pool (call is a Karmic pool) and return to the same. This is just as we come from a physical pool and return to a physical pool on the physical plane.

On a practical side this means that all that we are is recycled into new emergent beings.....

All my physical self goes back to the physical and all that is stored in my Soul (every thought, word and deed) goes into the collection karmic pool.

Let's stick to the spiritaul. We emerge from the Karmic pool through laws of karma to becomes new beings. So it is to the benefit of all that we try to live wise compassionate lives to raise the positive energy in the karmic pool for all beings.

Now you say - what about the Dalai Lama and such reincarnated masters - they are wise, practiced, compassionate and strong enough to INTEND a specific collection of aggregates into the next live. The vow of the bodhisattva is to "keep coming back until all beings are enlightened."

To recap, everything you do, say or think during this lifetime goes into the pool - you are judged by some Sky God (only yourself) or coddled by 70 Virgins after death - you quietly add your 'wisdom' to the spiritual pool we all come from.

Nothing is wasted, nothing is judged, it's just a natural process. And one that doesn't need religion - it's will take place regardless of my belief - just like gravity.

Something to think about.

originally posted by: DISRAELI
a reply to: gallop
Nothing in my source of faith suggests there was a life before birth.

Sure there is... as a Christian you just choose not to acknowledge it

Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations

originally posted by: gallop
It is often spoken of, life after death. Where we ascend to realms of the spiritual, to heaven... We take our conscious selves to that plane of existence, and meet our long lost kin... and spend eternity in paradise with god.

But... Why is there never any mention of life before birth?

?

Not really a discussion point, I guess... more I just want someone to think about it, and have a very good reply.

There is mention of a "well of souls" where children await birth but I'm not sure where it comes from or where it originated. Book of Enoch perhaps?

a reply to: Akragon
This is about the odd relationship between time and eternity.
Only the knowledge of Jeremiah was (from God's viewpoint) "before" Jeremiah was conceived. Not Jeremiah himself.
The modern desperate obsession with the idea of reincarnation is not there in the Bible, which is why people have to work so hard and so imaginatively in order to create these references.