A quick question to those who have faith...

originally posted by: DISRAELI
a reply to: PhilbertDezineck
In my opinion, the Hebrew word NEPHESH, which we translate as "soul", is almost equivalent to "life", so my personal preference would be to identify it with conception.

As far as I can tell, the idea of the detachable soul which can enter and leave the body is a mediaeval concept, not a Biblical concept. Unfortunately, it tends to enter people's minds whenever the word "soul" is used in a translation.

What if there is only life?
No separate thing having a life.... just life........the way, the truth, the one life.

If it seems as if you have life then you could lose that life..... you plus life makes two.
When the two are found to be one..... the kingdom shall be revealed.

a reply to: Itisnowagain
As usual, you entertain yourself by playing with words, not intending them to have any particular meaning. I'm not going to join in the game.

originally posted by: DISRAELI
a reply to: Itisnowagain
As usual, you entertain yourself by playing with words, not intending them to have any particular meaning. I'm not going to join in the game.

If you don't want to play.... why even answer?

If you don't understand then you simply don't understand!

a reply to: DISRAELI
What does 'the way, the truth and the life' mean?

a reply to: AY6111306

TextThe Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints believes in a pre-existence, a mortal period, and an afterlife (eternal existence).

Is that taught in the bible?

originally posted by: DISRAELI
a reply to: PhilbertDezineck
In my opinion, the Hebrew word NEPHESH, which we translate as "soul", is almost equivalent to "life", so my personal preference would be to identify it with conception.

As far as I can tell, the idea of the detachable soul which can enter and leave the body is a mediaeval concept, not a Biblical concept. Unfortunately, it tends to enter people's minds whenever the word "soul" is used in a translation.

Thank you for your wisdom. In your opinion what is the difference between the soul and the spirit? Jesus speaks of the salvation of the soul which is differnt than than the spirit. Jesus said if we loose our soul in this life we gain it in the next, where as it seems there are no conditions attached to the salvation of the spirit or the salvation of the body upon the resurrection.

a reply to: Itisnowagain

Some very interesting points in your clip's discussion regarding reincarnation.
Also very detailed and esoteric though, although I can't really disagree with any of it.

However, to think about it as a first step:

"As the embodied soul continually passes, in this body, from boyhood to youth to old age, the soul similarly passes into another body at death. A sober person is not bewildered by such a change".
(Bhagavad-gita 2: 13), cited in The Journey of Self-Discovery by A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Phrabupada, 1990, page 16.)
www.goodreads.com...

Now I'm not always a "sober" person, but even I can understand that.

The strange thing is, although these cultures believe in reincarnation, most of them are really not obsessed with their past lives, unlike some Westernized interest in reincarnation. Just as we remember very little about this body, when it was a baby, for example, or when we sleep, and even then memories can deceive us. So given as a fact, there is very little liberating to be gained about obsessing about past lives. The point is rather to bring us to some spiritual practice to come out of the cycle of birth and death eventually.

Without writing a thesis, I think there is no beginning to the indestructible spirit-soul, as far as we can understand it, but there was somewhere a point where the eternal soul fell into inferior material energy, and this cycle of birth and death. How exactly it happened I don't know, but the Judaeo-Christian (possibly Islam too) allegory of "the fall" in Genesis is quite telling of how one can get booted out of paradise.

Neither do I believe the material existence is endless.
Eventually Krishna (I believe) will begin to call us back according to our karma and consciousness.
In our current age of the Kali-Yuga (the age of iron, quarrel and hypocrisy), they say the easiest way is to chant and listen to chants and scriptures, particularly the Maha-Mantra.
And it's never been easier now that all the chants are on the Internet, even if you're far from any temple or other believers.
You can listen in every town and village, as it was foretold.
Hare Krishna.

[And forgiveness, I know there's tons of very esoteric information in various scriptures and "traditions" on ghostly states, disembodied astral beings, demons and demigods, transmigration between species and even different planets and universes, none of which I say is incorrect. But I'm taking what is relevant for myself - here and now. For even these states can be obtained if you meditate or obsess about them, and despite not being on the "meat-body" plane, they are also impermanent and semi-material They are not truly spiritual liberation.]

a reply to: PhilbertDezineck
The comment of Jesus is perfectly consistent with "soul" meaning "life". If you go even as far as giving up your life for God, you wil recover it.

The whole business of distinguishing "spirit" and "soul" is something I haven't sorted out properly.
If there's a distinction, it's a New Testament one, because it's based on two Greek words.
There is PNEUMA, which is normally translated "spirit". The basic meaning is wind or breath (hence the word-play of John ch3 v8). Obviously the word used for the Spirit of God.
Then there is PSYCHE, which is normally translated "soul". As far as the Greeks were concerned, the PSYCHE is responsible for moving the body about, and it comes close to meaning "the mind". Anyway, its the origin of words like "psychology".

Paul's usage is a little ambiguous. In 1 Corinthians ch2 v11, he says that the spirit of a man knows his thoughts and in the same way the Spirit of God knows the thoughts of God. Later in ch14 v14, he says "if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays but my mind is unfruitful". It looks as though he's using "spirit" to mean that unconscious part of us that is in more direct contact with God.
Then in ch15 v44 he distinguishes between our present body and the resurrection body, by saying the first is related to PSYCHE (the translation "physical body" is a mistake) and the second is related to PNEUMA. He seems to be saying that the first is governed by our fallen human will and the second is governed by the Spirit of God.

I must admit that I manage to get by in reading the New Testament without worrying about a clear distinction between "soul" and "spirit", so it may be that we don't need it.

a reply to: DISRAELI

It must have some significance other wise would of Paul disgusted we are tripartal like God? The let use make man in our image statement which would be the Soul of God the Father with His mind will and emotions, the Spirit being the arm of God and finally the body of God in the person of Jesus. It seems like God does make a difference between the soul and spirit. One could say that upon salvation that the spirit is instantly changed the soul makes a daily concerted effort to follow God and one day the body will receive full salvation upon the resurrection.

a reply to: PhilbertDezineck
My own interpretation of "being made in God's image" is "having a conscious will, unlike the rest of the animals", which is why "having dominion over the earth" follows as a consequence.
Fortunately these questions don't affect the way we conduct ourselves towards God, which is what matters.

originally posted by: DISRAELI
a reply to: PhilbertDezineck
My own interpretation of "being made in God's image" is "having a conscious will, unlike the rest of the animals", which is why "having dominion over the earth" follows as a consequence.
Fortunately these questions don't affect the way we conduct ourselves towards God, which is what matters.

Paul instructed us to work out our salvation with fear and trebling. Paul states that we are saved, being saved, and a future salvation yet to be seen. So it would seem that this does have a influence on how we interact with God and man. When Jesus separates the goats and the sheep I would imagine the goats thought they were in the faith through their works and what they thought was obedience to Jesus and the sheep were oblivious to when they had done things in His name. IMHO it does have a impact on how we conduct ourselves towards God.

Perhaps we should look at the rise of depth psychology (Freud and Jung - particularly the younger versions), and why we think memories, or "past-lives" should cure us of anything.

Well a notion in Western parapsychology still - if you can't find the root of your neurosis in this life, then take it back a bit further to past-life therapy!

But whether regression cures anything, or really reveals a past life is doubtful.
Nevertheless sometimes compelling.
But that therapy also always has the danger of guiding people and indeed putting thoughts in their heads, rather than removing them.

So I'd say don't base your proof of reincarnation on that.
The spirit changes bodies like a diva changes costumes.
Bhagavad-gita uses other proof.
Realize you are changing bodies and reincarnating now.
You don't feel it, a natural process.
Just like you don't feel your hair grow or getting gray.

a reply to: Seede

There are several references in The Bible to Christ, Jeremiah, and Job having a premortal existence. The below link provides scriptural references to this question.

www.churchofjesuschrist.org... ang=eng

a reply to: halfoldman
Realizing that there is just here and now is realizing the spirit.
There is no thing other.

No thing was ever born so no thing can ever die.

originally posted by: halfoldman
Perhaps we should look at the rise of depth psychology (Freud and Jung - particularly the younger versions), and why we think memories, or "past-lives" should cure us of anything.

Well a notion in Western parapsychology still - if you can't find the root of your neurosis in this life, then take it back a bit further to past-life therapy!

But whether regression cures anything, or really reveals a past life is doubtful.
Nevertheless sometimes compelling.
But that therapy also always has the danger of guiding people and indeed putting thoughts in their heads, rather than removing them.

So I'd say don't base your proof of reincarnation on that.
The spirit changes bodies like a diva changes costumes.
Bhagavad-gita uses other proof.
Realize you are changing bodies and reincarnating now.
You don't feel it, a natural process.
Just like you don't feel your hair grow or getting gray.

You are not a body or 'in' a body.
There is nothing in the body...... there is just apparent bodies appearing and disappearing......there is just what is showing up.

Now is what there is and now is constantly appearing different.

Now never began and will never end.....or now is the beginning and the end..... it is all that is.

The alpha and the omega.

The idea of time makes it seem as if there could be a separate you that can do something.
There is nothing outside of what is happening..... no outside to the garden of Eden.

a reply to: PhilbertDezineck
After more thought, I've refined my take on Paul's usage a little more closely.
As far as I can see, he uses "spirit" to mean that aspect of the unconscious mind which is in direct contact with God- indeed with the Spirit of God.
The PSYCHE includes the more conscious mind, which is where we try to impose our self-will on the world, so it is more "fallen".

My understanding of 1 Corinthians ch15 is that the whole person is raised from the dead. The only thing missing is the sin.

originally posted by: PhilbertDezineck
a reply to: DISRAELI

It must have some significance other wise would of Paul disgusted we are tripartal like God? The let use make man in our image statement which would be the Soul of God the Father with His mind will and emotions, the Spirit being the arm of God and finally the body of God in the person of Jesus. It seems like God does make a difference between the soul and spirit. One could say that upon salvation that the spirit is instantly changed the soul makes a daily concerted effort to follow God and one day the body will receive full salvation upon the resurrection.

God is an invisible Spirit. Jesus is a living being and the physical manifestation of God. When this life is over, we will be given "heavenly bodies" which will have both a physical (soul) aspect and a spiritual one (spirit). We won't be living in eternity in an invisible state, but a physical one.

originally posted by: AY6111306
a reply to: Seede

There are several references in The Bible to Christ, Jeremiah, and Job having a premortal existence. The below link provides scriptural references to this question.

www.churchofjesuschrist.org... ang=eng

The Bible verses listed as references at the end of this statement totally contradict what the author says. Those verses make it clear that they are referring to angels that existed before man. The other verses used as references are all part of the Book of Mormon, which are not biblical.

5. Certain passages of the Bible make sense only in the light of man’s premortal existence. We as Latter-day Saints understand that during the course of man’s premortal spirit career one third of God’s children rebelled and followed Satan. (See D&C 29:36–38; Moses 4:1–4; Abr. 3:22–28.) This understanding gives meaning to a number of biblical passages bearing on the expulsion from heaven of certain disobedient beings. Consider, for example, 2 Peter 2:4 [2 Pet. 2:4], Jude 1:6, and Revelation 12:7–9 [Rev. 12:7–9] .

As for Job 38, it's been taken totally out of context along with the other explanations. While God knew us and who we would become before we were born due to his omniscience, we did not know Him.

Job 36:25-26

25 Every man may see it; man may behold it afar off.

26 Behold, God is great, and we know him not, neither can the number of his years be searched out.

John 8:23

23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.

originally posted by: Deetermined

originally posted by: PhilbertDezineck
a reply to: DISRAELI

It must have some significance other wise would of Paul disgusted we are tripartal like God? The let use make man in our image statement which would be the Soul of God the Father with His mind will and emotions, the Spirit being the arm of God and finally the body of God in the person of Jesus. It seems like God does make a difference between the soul and spirit. One could say that upon salvation that the spirit is instantly changed the soul makes a daily concerted effort to follow God and one day the body will receive full salvation upon the resurrection.

God is an invisible Spirit. Jesus is a living being and the physical manifestation of God. When this life is over, we will be given "heavenly bodies" which will have both a physical (soul) aspect and a spiritual one (spirit). We won't be living in eternity in an invisible state, but a physical one.

we will be given heavenly bodies upon the resurrection not at death. The soul is not pysical in this life but will be manifested in some upon the resurrection. Jesus sated that to loose ones soul in this life will gain one in the next upon the resurrection. Next thing you will say is heaven is full of souls at this present time who have died and gone to heaven.

a reply to: gallop

Supposedly you don't become a soul until the meeting of the sperm and the egg, once life enters in then your soul is ignited and united to life. In essence you never existed before the conception each person is uniquely given life from their parents, it is called procreation.