New Public School approach

intrepid says:

"OTS, the problem with schools, at least for the last 20 years or so, is the funding has been slashed and not replaced. Cramming more students in and #/ teacher is outrageous. To fix that you need more money to combat the situation, where are you going to get that?"

Except that there is little correlation between the money spent on education and the results. For example, parochial schools spend about $4250/year/student, which is less thatn the average government-monopoly school -- and their test scores are, on the average, higher than the government-monopoly schools in their area.

And Washington DC, with a per-student annual expenditure of $9750 (the highest of any large school district in the nation) has the second-lowest scores of any place in the country.

"Hmmm, let's look at that defense budget. 1% of that would probably do it."

Intrepid, I suggest that you go to www.whitehouse.gov... (the United States Budget for 2006) and www.census.gov... (the statistical Abstract of the United States0 to determine what effect allocating one percent of the defense budget would have on government-monopoly school levels in the United States. Let's deny ignorance here.

"I firmly believe in the concept of the seperation of church and state."

So do I. But I am not asking that the government support a religion. All I am asking is that I be allowed to spend my own money (that's my money, Intrepid; not your money) to educate my child the way I choose.

Nygdan says:

"Why? And using public funds to create christian schools is as illegal as using them to setup madrasses."

What is this "public funds" business? I am talking about your taxes for your choice, and my taxes for my choice. Why does that concept of freedom of choice (for both you and I) bother you?

I mean, if I get a tax deduction for my mortgage interest (which I do), does that impact you? If I get a tax credit for installing a solar hot-water heater (which I did), does that impact you?

I am surprised that so many people here are against freedom of choice by the people and so much in favor of the Government being in charge of so many aspects of our lives.

Originally posted by marg6043
Dr. Horacid you should start you own private school, and make it the way you want, like that you could be a happy person.

Perhaps you should start you own cult.

Again you miss the point, 71% of America says the bible should be part of public education. Why should they be made to endure the biggotry of the anti-religion "cults"?

marg says:

"Dr. Horacid you should start you own private school, and make it the way you want, like that you could be a happy person. Perhaps you should start you own cult."

Marg, Mr. Horacid and Mr. Nygdan and Mr. Intrepid and I are having a grownup conversation here.

Originally posted by DrHoracid
With all the turmoil over schools, why not try the "magnet" school approach.

Set up schools "with" Christian values such as prayer and the ten commandments and ones "without".

Doc, I was under the assumption (there is that evil word agian) that catholic and private riligous schools were set up just for that purpose. As far as having tax dollars foot the bill to teach religon, I dont think that is fair to those of us who would rather our children not be spoon fed a religon based on an organisation that I frankly have no faith in. If you send your child to a public school and wish them to learn religous values, then it should be up to the parent to teach those values unbiasedly. I find that by teaching my daughter about many philosophies, ie Buddhism, Shintoism, Christianity, and so forth, she has a better understanding of the people in which she interacts with on a daily basis, as well as an increase in respect of other peoples views and opinions.

Now not all parents are going to be able to do this for one reason or another, but there is always Saturday and Sunday for you to sit down with your child and teach them the values you wish to instill in them. We put to much expectancy into the public education system teaching our children morals and values , and not enough emphisis on pure academics. To me, what it boils down to is the people who want the public school system to teach there children morals and values through religon are just to darn lazy to instill those values in their children themselves.

Part of being in a public school is knowing that you are going there strictly for the academics. Anything else is extra and should be addressed in a private school.

[edit on 3/7/05 by Kidfinger]

Originally posted by Kidfinger

Originally posted by DrHoracid
With all the turmoil over schools, why not try the "magnet" school approach.

Set up schools "with" Christian values such as prayer and the ten commandments and ones "without".

Doc, I was under the assumption (there is that evil word agian) that catholic and private riligous schools were set up just for that purpose. As far as having tax dollars foot the bill to teach religon, I dont think that is fair to those of us who would rather our children not be spoon fed a religon based on an organisation that I frankly have no faith in. If you send your child to a public school and wish them to learn religous values, then it should be up to the parent to teach those values unbiasedly. I find that by teaching my daughter about many philosophies, ie Buddhism, Shintoism, Christianity, and so forth, she has a better understanding of the people in which she interacts with on a daily basis, as well as an increase in respect of other peoples views and opinions.

Now not all parents are going to be able to do this for one reason or another, but there is always Saturday and Sunday for you to sit down with your child and teach them the values you wish to instill in them. We put to much expectancy into the p[ublic education system teaching our children morals and values , and not enough emphisis on pure academics. To me, what it boils down to is the people who want the public school system to teach there children morals and values through religon are just to darn lazy to instill those values in their children themselves.

Part of being in a public school is knowing that you are going there strictly for the academics. Anything else is extra and should be addressed in a private school.

If the schools were 'strickly" academics that would be great too. But there is enough money in public schools for the seperation of the "cults" if need be. What is wrong with the 'choice"?

[edit on 7-3-2005 by DrHoracid]

Originally posted by DrHoracid

If the schools were 'strickly" acedemics that would be great too. But there is enough money in public schools for the seperation of the "cults" if need be. What is wrong with the 'choice"?

There is absolutly nothing wrong with choice. I could send my child to any private school in my area using vouchers and such, but that is not how I want my child taught. The choice is in going to public school and goint to a private school. THe options are out there for everyone, and the assistance is there if needed. You do have a choice.

As far as the money situation goes, no, we dont have enough money in our education system. If we did, the teachers would be making more money than a manager at McDonalds. The sad fact is, our public school teachers are under funded and under paid. If there is a boost in funds, it should go straight to the teachers who deserve a HUGE pay hike.

Originally posted by Off_The_Street
"I firmly believe in the concept of the seperation of church and state."

So do I. But I am not asking that the government support a religion. All I am asking is that I be allowed to spend my own money (that's my money, Intrepid; not your money) to educate my child the way I choose.

I have no issues with that OTS, it's just the hypocisy that the good doctor espouses that I'm responding to. Still haven't got an answer to this:

Originally posted by intrepid

Originally posted by DrHoracid
The absence of religion in the schools I pay for is a violation of "MY" right of religion. "The congress shall make no law respecting religion"

Removing prayer from the schools is a 'state" support of religion.

Well, if you put it that way, I guess we'll just put everybody's rights on the shelf so you can have yours.

Originally posted by DrHoracid
Again the 'tryany" of the minority is ruining "my" america. The "good" of the one does no outweight the "rights" of the many.

What's that I'm smelling here Doc? Could it be hypocrisy?

Well Doc you found a couple of State that are actually spending more, Google is such a wonderful thing. How many sites did you pass by before getting what you could use?

Originally posted by DrHoracid

If the schools were 'strickly" academics that would be great too. But there is enough money in public schools for the seperation of the "cults" if need be. What is wrong with the 'choice"?

Why not teach all everything - remove the mystery and mystique, shine a bright light for everyone's benefit? ...Focusing on the material as dogma becomes indoctrination, but providing info is different. ...Also - If you have separate classes for each 'cult' would be kinda like 'gang-building' dontcha think? ...And get out of control rather quickly...



.

kidfinger says:

"Doc, I was under the assumption (there is that evil word agian) that catholic and private riligous schools were set up just for that purpose."

Not true. Private schools, whether religious or not, are designed to give you an academic education, which is probably why they typically do better in the standard achievement tests than the government schools do.

"As far as having tax dollars foot the bill to teach religon, I dont think that is fair to those of us who would rather our children not be spoon fed a religon based on an organisation that I frankly have no faith in."

kid, you're right. But you (and others) seem to think that it's wrong for me to use your taxes to support my choice, but it's okay for you to use my taxes to support your choice. Do you really think that is fair?

Why not let each parent spend his or her money in support his or her kids? Why are against this freedom of choice?

"If you send your child to a public school and wish them to learn religous values, then it should be up to the parent to teach those values unbiasedly."

No one is arguing that. But the debate is not necessarily religious versus non-secular education, it is about a parent having the freedom to spend his own money to educate his own kid.

"Part of being in a public school is knowing that you are going there strictly for the academics. Anything else is extra and should be addressed in a private school."

Including the public school sports program, the photography club, all the music and arts programs?

Rubbish!

A good school, whether it is government-monopoly or freedom-of-choice, strives to provide a broad pallette of education to its students. it should be up to the parents of the students to pick the colors from that pallette, and the only way I can think of doing that is to give each parent the freedom of choice to spend her own money.

I'm not responding to anyone here, just publishing a "FWIW".

o I went to a Catholic (St. Anthony, Wailuku, Maui) school from 1st to 3rd grade in Hawaii;

o I was home-schooled from 4th to 8th grade in Micronesia (because there were no schools there);

o I attended Francis Xavier Jesuit high school in Truk for 9th grade;

o I attended 10th through 12th grades in public schools (10th in Guam, the last two in Washington DC suburbs);

o I attended the University of Maryland (public) and did P.G. work it Arizona State Univeristy (public) and Univ of Phoenix) (private) since then;

o I taught two years of public school (5th grade at John H. Bayne Elementary School) in Prince George's County, Md; and

o Over the past seven years, I have taught regularly at a Boeing exchange program with the Mesa Public Schools 9th grade Junior High Schools (all seven of them).

My point is that I may not be an "expert", but I like to think I have a fairly broad background on both sides of the teacher's desk.

[edit on 7-3-2005 by Off_The_Street]

Originally posted by DrHoracid

Next there is no "right" to public education period. It does not exist.

[edit on 7-3-2005 by DrHoracid]

Yet, they will send the police after you as the parent or you as the student if you miss too many days of school? Doesn't make sense.

Another note. Last time I checked, a public school couldn't deny your enrollment based on anything including being mentally handicapped. So, essentially your right to public education is there.

Why are you trying to make yourself out as the victim? Imagine this, what if your child couldn't even go to a public school because of his religious belief? What would you do plea with the system? What if that doesn't work, fight the system?

To me, it sounds like you want a majority to speak for everyone. Doesn't work that way, think back into history...

[edit on 7-3-2005 by Aether]

Originally posted by DrHoracid
Who gave the "minority" (the anti-religion) bunch control of public money and schools.

No one gave anyone anything. The majority of people don't want their tax money spent on parochial schools.

I do think "vouchers" should be given to those parent "offended" by prayer in school and the display of the commandments.

I don't. I see no reason to allow public funds to be used to pay for private education.

Go start "secular" schools.

The public school system by its very nature and by the will of the people are and should be secular.

In public schools its everything 'except" christianity....why is that?

This statement is not true.

Point ONE there is no seperation of church and state anywhere in the constitution.

THere is an anti-establishment clause and using government tax money to create and fund christian schools would be establishment. Besides which, while the phrase 'sep of c and s' is not in the constitution, the founders apparently were aware of the concept and worked torwards it.

Please tell me the "harm" of creating seperate 'magnet' schools?

The harm is precisely the same sort of harm as having fundamentalist islamic maddrasses funded with public money. There is already a system by which parents can put their kids into parochial schools, there is no need to change the system.

Next there is no "right" to public education period. It does not exist.

I doubt you are going to be very successful in using that argument to abolish public schools. Education is compulsory in the US, whether its done thru public or private schools is up to the citizen.

But there is enough money in public schools for the seperation of the "cults" if need be.

Thats fundamentally anti-american I'd have to say. Seperate but equal and all. Furthering the cause of sectarianism in the US is of no benefit to anyone, and is far more dangerous a situation than simply not having the bible as part of the educational curriculae.

off the street
What is this "public funds" business? I am talking about your taxes for your choice, and my taxes for my choice. Why does that concept of freedom of choice (for both you and I) bother you?

Because I do not pay taxes so that christians can be taught in such a way that is 'in lockstep' with their faith. And I do not pay taxes so that muslims can be taught the hadiths rather than history or so that jews can be taught the midrash over mathematics. There is a secular public school system. IF that system was abusive to the rights of christians, I'd agree that that problem has to be corrected. In my experience, public schools are not. They are perfectly secular, not anti-christian. Therefore, i see no reason to allow my tax money to be used for that. There is no way to 'earmark' the monies people pay into taxes for educational uses, or at least, as far as I understand it, this is not how its done. Besides, even parents who send their children to parochial or other private schools receive the benefits of the public school system, such as for example, property values in 'good' public school districts, or any other number of benefits of living in a society where there is universal compulsory education. If we can all pay into a government medical system, or a government tax supported road system (irrespective of direct use of either), then why apply special clauses to paying school taxes?

I mean, if I get a tax deduction for my mortgage interest (which I do), does that impact you?

It does if we all pay our mortages out of tax money, which would be similar (tho obviously nonsensical) to the school system. We all benefit from the public schools. We all should pay into it. Perhaps a non-full deduction can be awarded, (but not in the form of school vouchers to be spent at private schools, simply refund the money), but I am not entirely sure that the tax accounting system can all that accurately track it, between local state and federal taxes.

and so much in favor of the Government being in charge of so many aspects of our lives.

How is the government in charge? It merely says 'everyone pay into the public coffer', which is not an unusual thing.

seem to think that it's wrong for me to use your taxes to support my choice, but it's okay for you to use my taxes to support your choice. Do you really think that is fair?

A good way of putting it but I don't think it necessarily has to be framed that way. Afterall, we all agree that we simply don't get to decide what happens with our tax money on a number of different issues. If I personally don't want my tax money to be spent on a particular mixture of asphalt for the public roads, because I think its been homeotically contaminated with poisons, I shouldn't be able to have my tax money pulled from the road project, or siphoned into a 'homeotically approved' second road. I think that the analogy applies here to an extent.

soficrow
Why not teach all everything -

Why teach any of it? Why educate the general public on say, orthodoxic dogma on the 'man vs godly' nature of christ to the general public at all? A secular education without reference to religion as religion is in everyone's benefit. No one is harmed by reasonable thought nor should be threatened by it. Knowing that Geo Washington had slaves doesn't mean that he wasn't a great man. Similarly, knowing that biology operates thru natural selection doesn't mean that god didn't create man in his own image. Whats taught at schools doesn't need to conflict with what is taught at home.

Originally posted by Off_The_Street
kidfinger says:

"Doc, I was under the assumption (there is that evil word agian) that catholic and private riligous schools were set up just for that purpose."

Not true. Private schools, whether religious or not, are designed to give you an academic education, which is probably why they typically do better in the standard achievement tests than the government schools do.

Yes, but they are also geard towards the religous side of education which is what you are asking for as a chioce in education.

"As far as having tax dollars foot the bill to teach religon, I dont think that is fair to those of us who would rather our children not be spoon fed a religon based on an organisation that I frankly have no faith in."

kid, you're right. But you (and others) seem to think that it's wrong for me to use your taxes to support my choice, but it's okay for you to use my taxes to support your choice. Do you really think that is fair?

I do understand that you are unable to use your tax money as you would like. I am frustrated with this as well. I homeschool my daughter, but I still have some of my taxes used to support public education. Is that fair? Not really, but it benifits those who cannot do what I am able to, so I really dont have a problem with it per say, it is just a little frustrating that I dont have a choice in the matter.

.........But the debate is not necessarily religious versus non-secular education, it is about a parent having the freedom to spend his own money to educate his own kid.

Sort of. Maybe I misunderstood the doctors opening post. I thought it was specifically about funding public schools that taught religon as opposed to non religous public schools in relation to your educational choice.

"Part of being in a public school is knowing that you are going there strictly for the academics. Anything else is extra and should be addressed in a private school."

Including the public school sports program, the photography club, all the music and arts programs?

Rubbish!

Not rubbish at all OTS. Those clubs are after school activities for the most part. All those activities are offered at most private schools as well.
Public schools just dont have a stance one way or the other on religon. You are not judged in a public school because of your strengh in faith. You are judged on acedemic accomplishments. Fist consicration and first communion are not on the agenda at a public school.

A good school, whether it is government-monopoly or freedom-of-choice, strives to provide a broad pallette of education to its students. it should be up to the parents of the students to pick the colors from that pallette, and the only way I can think of doing that is to give each parent the freedom of choice to spend her own money.

I agree with this for the most part. What you have to understand is that public schools are just stripped down private schools without the religon and private funding. The fact is, you are more likely to recieve a better education at a private school mainly because private schools can afford to hire the teachers that are passionate about teaching. They pay the extra salary so their students can benifit from better teachers. Every parent does have a choice about where to send their child to school. If you cant afford the private school you wish to send your child to, there is government assistance. So, if you look at the Gov assistance for that, you could say that you do have a choice on where to spend your money. The government assistance is coming from your taxes after all.

Originally posted by Nygdan

soficrow
Why not teach all everything -

Why teach any of it? Why educate the general public on say, orthodoxic dogma on the 'man vs godly' nature of christ to the general public at all? A secular education without reference to religion as religion is in everyone's benefit. No one is harmed by reasonable thought nor should be threatened by it. Knowing that Geo Washington had slaves doesn't mean that he wasn't a great man. Similarly, knowing that biology operates thru natural selection doesn't mean that god didn't create man in his own image. Whats taught at schools doesn't need to conflict with what is taught at home.

I'm not sure you got what I was saying Nygdan and suspect we may be advocating the same thing - I do advocate teaching 'everything' to 'everyone' - not as dogma, but as in providing the information.

As I said above, remove the mystery and mystique, shine a bright light for everyone's benefit...

I also pointed out that holding separate classes for each 'cult' presented the danger of 'gang-building' - and splitting groups and isolating kids even further from one another. ...Often the tension between people stems from the fact that they're using a different database - give'em access to the same system I say. Then no one has anything over on anyone else. ...and what they do with info remains their own and their parents business.


.

So, where's the school that will teach my daughter candle magic....you all don't mind do ya....I mean, it's our religion!! and if some can have their schools set up according to their religous values, why can't I...
or the muslim terrorist down the street who want his child taught his way!!!

Originally posted by intrepid

What's that I'm smelling here Doc? Could it be hypocrisy?

Well Doc you found a couple of State that are actually spending more, Google is such a wonderful thing. How many sites did you pass by before getting what you could use?



Actually, those were the FIRST two that came up. Now off-man gave you mass data.

In DC the cost per 'student" is $10-$12K each and no change in test scores. Kansas City spent billions an no significant change in scores. It ain't money, honey............

Originally posted by dawnstar
So, where's the school that will teach my daughter candle magic....you all don't mind do ya....I mean, it's our religion!! and if some can have their schools set up according to their religous values, why can't I...
or the muslim terrorist down the street who want his child taught his way!!!

Again "tryany" of the minority. I would divide the schools into "values" and "secular". I am not asking for "religion" to be taught, just "tolerated" like all the "multi-culturalism" BS. gezzz

What about the rest of that post Doc, you know, the part you didn't quote?
Keep missing that for some reason.

Originally posted by DrHoracid

Originally posted by dawnstar
So, where's the school that will teach my daughter candle magic....you all don't mind do ya....I mean, it's our religion!! and if some can have their schools set up according to their religous values, why can't I...
or the muslim terrorist down the street who want his child taught his way!!!

Again "tryany" of the minority. I would divide the schools into "values" and "secular". I am not asking for "religion" to be taught, just "tolerated" like all the "multi-culturalism" BS. gezzz

na....the tyranny would start after all those kids learned the great islamic value of building bombs and started setting them off...

just who's values are we talking about? you were complaining about kids not being able to pray in school, well, I'm sorry, maybe that is how we pray at our house, we burn candles, and say magical chants.....caste magical circles, you don't mind, do ya....
others might sit in strange positions for hours on end meditating.....that's acceptable to you isn't it?

Originally posted by intrepid
What about the rest of that post Doc, you know, the part you didn't quote?

Keep missing that for some reason.

One, no seperation ask and answered

Two funding ask and answered

Three ask and answered.

Four........

"Reasons To Homeschool

Spend more time together as a family.
Spend more time with children when they are rested and fresh rather than tired and cranky from school.
Avoid having to struggle to get children to do the tedious busywork that is so often sent home as homework.
Allow children time to learn subjects not usually taught in their school.
Allow children to have time for more in-depth study than what is allowed in school.
Allow children to learn at their own pace, not too slow or too fast.
Allow children to work at a level that is appropriate to their own developmental stage. Skills and concepts can be introduced at the right time for that child.
Provide long, uninterrupted blocks of time for writing, reading, playing, thinking, or working so that the child is able to engage in sophisticated, complex activities and thought processes.
Encourage concentration and focus - which are discouraged in crowded classrooms with too many distractions.
Encourage the child to develop the ability to pace her/himself - this is prevented in a classroom where the schedule is designed to keep every child busy all the time.
Spend a lot of time out-of-doors. This is more healthy than spending most weekdays indoors in a crowded, and often overheated, classroom.
Spending more time out-of-doors results in feeling more in touch with the changing of the seasons and with the small and often overlooked miracles of nature.
Children learn to help more with household chores, developing a sense of personal responsibility.
Children learn life skills, such as cooking, in a natural way, by spending time with adults who are engaged in those activities.
More time spent on household responsibilities strengthens family bonds because people become more committed to things they have invested in (in this case, by working for the family).
Time is available for more nonacademic pursuits such as art or music. This leads to a richer, happier life.
Children will not feel like passive recipients of subject matter selected by their teachers. They will learn to design their own education and take responsibility for it.
Children will realize that learning can take place in a large variety of ways.
Children will learn to seek out assistance from many alternative sources, rather than relying on a classroom teacher to provide all the answers.
A more relaxed, less hectic lifestyle is possible when families do not feel the necessity to supplement school during after-school and week-end hours.
Busywork can be avoided.
Learning can be more efficient since methods can be used that suit a child's particular learning style.
Children will avoid being forced to work in "cooperative learning groups" which include children who have very uncooperative attitudes.
Children can learn to work for internal satisfaction rather than for external rewards.
Children will not be motivated to "take the easy way out" by doing just enough work to satisfy their teacher. They will learn to be their own judge of the quality of their own work.
Children will be more willing to take risks and be creative since they do not have to worry about being embarrassed in front of peers.
Children will be more confident since they are not subject to constant fear of criticism from teachers.
Peer pressure will be reduced. There will be less pressure to grow up as quickly in terms of clothing styles, music, language, interest in the opposite sex.
Social interactions will be by choice and based on common interests.
Friends can be more varied, not just with the child's chronological age peer group who happen to go to the same school.
Field trips can be taken on a much more frequent basis.
Field trips can be much more enjoyable and more productive when not done with a large school group which usually involves moving too quickly and dealing with too many distractions.
Field trips can be directly tied into the child's own curriculum.
Volunteer service activities can be included in the family's regular schedule. Community service can be of tremendous importance in a child's development and can be a great learning experience.
Scheduling can be flexible, allowing travel during less expensive and less crowded off-peak times. This can allow for more travel than otherwise, which is a wonderful learning experience.
Children will be less likely to compare their own knowledge or intelligence with other children and will be less likely to become either conceited or feel inferior.
Religious and special family days can be planned and celebrated.
More time will be spent with people (friends and family) who really love and care about the children. Children will bond more with siblings and parents since they will spend more time together playing, working, and helping each other.
Feedback on children's work will be immediate and appropriate. They won't have to wait for a teacher to grade and return their work later to find out if they understood it.
Feedback can be much more useful than just marking answers incorrect or giving grades.
Testing is optional. Time doesn't have to be spent on testing or preparing for testing unless the parent and/or child desires it.
Observation and discussion are ongoing at home and additional assessment methods are often redundant. Testing, if used, is best used to indicate areas for further work.
Grading is usually unnecessary and learning is seen as motivating in and of itself. Understanding and knowledge are the rewards for studying, rather than grades (or stickers, or teacher's approval, etc.).
Children can be consistently guided in a family's values and can learn them by seeing and participating in parents' daily lives.
Children will learn to devote their energy and time to activities that THEY think are worthwhile.
Children will be able to learn about their ethnicities in a manner that will not demean. Children will be able to understand multiculturalism in its true sense and not from the pseudo-multicultural materials presented in schools which tend to depict others from a dominant culture perspective.
Children will not learn to "fit into society," but will, instead, value morality and love more than status and money.
Children do not have to wait until they are grown to begin to seriously explore their passions; they can start living now.
Children's education can be more complete than what schools offer.
Children who are "different" in any way can avoid being subjected to the constant and merciless teasing, taunting, and bullying which so often occurs in school.
Children with special needs will be encouraged to reach their full potential and not be limited by the use of "cookie cutter" educational methods used in schools.
Low standards or expectations of school personnel will not influence or limit children's ability to learn and excel.
Children will be safer from gangs, drugs, and guns.
Parents will decide what is important for the children to learn, rather than a government bureaucracy.
Family will not be forced to work within school's traditional hours if it does not fit well with their job schedules and sleep needs."

www.nhen.org...

There hows that?