OP/ED: Bushkrieg: Shock and Awe in America

the question is....
how many people would there be once the safety net is pulled? or better yet, how many people working 40 or more hours a week will be going hungry, or going home to hungry kids?
and well, even with all the money being put into this system, there are still hungry people out there, and well, I am pretty sure there are a few on this board who have had their moments with it.


the point I was making was if the people get hungry or desparate enough, they will resort to doing whatever they have to to make things better for them....
there wouldn't be no communist plot, it would just be a mass of hungry people taking what they need, and the nice electric fencing and such surrounding those nice mansions ain't gonna keep them out for long....

this would cause the patriot act to kick into effect, which would then probably make the US to resemble cuba just a little more.

not to mention, most of those jobs that have been created are in government, and the medical profession, if you pull the safety net, well, those jobs aren't gona be there, are they?

Not really....there is no capitalism in Cuba...there is no Capitalism in Vietnam...there was no Capitalism in China until recently.... the poorest countries in income have always been communist countries, or were there has been some form of dictatorship, such as in countries in Africa. Yes, it is true that Capitalist countries also have problems, but the solution is not the "worker's revolution"......most of the time the "worker's revolution" has made the workers and everyone else poorer, and brought even more problems.
[edit on 8-3-2005 by Muaddib]

That's not how I meant it. I meant that corporations have ties with the governments of the poor countries which allow them to buy land and/or resources at a very cheap price. Land that may have been originally from native tribes that have been stripped away by the governments of those countries. That's what I mean. Foreign companies profit (and become rich) from land in their own area. For those people there is no different than colonialism in the past.

Originally posted by mwm1331
End welfare, end SS, etc. give the rich a 1 for 1 tax deducton on all money donated to approved charities, and you will never see nother man begging for change again, or sleeping in a cardboard box.

End SS? Nonsense. Utter and complete tripe.

I've served on the Board of Directors for several different charities. I've actually seen what goes on behind closed doors. I've also ended all donations to faith based charities, because of the amount of waste was nothing short of mind boggling. A catholic homeless shelter, in one particular red state, was given $250,000 in corporate contributions in the form of supplies. These supplies were then sold on the street by the "religious" people who ran the place, and the actual homeless never received anything.

I'm not even getting into the evengelical side, because at least the volunteers are doing something. I'm not even going to mention priestly sex scandals, because EVERYONE knows somebody who's been molested. So, then to trust these same people with the powerless and the weak? Insanity. Catholic orphanages are a blight on the collective histories of the U.S. Canada, England, and Ireland.

Seriously, the sheer amount of corruption found in Faith Based charities was simply breathtaking, and the same patterns followed charity after charity. Truth be told, the charities turned me off of the church. And, if you think they're the magical silver bullet for society's ills, you're living in fairy tale land.

Originally posted by Muaddib
What in the world does it make people believe that communism is the anwser?.... [edit on 8-3-2005 by Muaddib]

Very simply, if you increase the number of poor Americans and decrease the number of middle class Americans, there will be a wider gulf between rich and poor. The Bourgeois is the only thing seperating these two halves.

The selfish poor will turn to crime, and rob you. The starving poor will get frustrated and look for answers. The desperate will believe any propaganda placed in front of them, because they have nothing to lose. In this case, Communism is the battlecry for modern global class warfare, so it's simply not out of line to imagine that the above plan, to eliminate all tax based social spending, would have disasterous net results.

Some thing that I think is absolute BS, they can give Bush 81billion more dollars for WAR, but can't raise minimum wage $2.10!!!



More evidence against them...

Let it be known, those who knew, tried.

Just a few tidbits to add to your fact files:



* The World Health Organization "ranked the countries of the world in terms of overall health performance, and the U.S. [was]...37th." In the fairness of health care, we're 54th. "The irony is that the United States spends more per capita for health care than any other nation in the world" (The European Dream, pp.79-80). Pay more, get lots, lots less.

* "The U.S. and South Africa are the only two developed countries in the world that do not provide health care for all their citizens" (The European Dream, p.80). Excuse me, but since when is South Africa a "developed" country?

* "U.S. childhood poverty now ranks 22nd, or second to last, among the developed nations. Only Mexico scores lower" (The European Dream, p.81). Been to Mexico lately? Does it look "developed" to you? Yet it's the only "developed" country to score lower in childhood poverty.

* Twelve million American families - more than 10 percent of all U.S. households - "continue to struggle, and not always successfully, to feed themselves." Families that "had members who actually went hungry at some point last year" numbered 3.9 million (NYT, Nov. 22, 2004).

* The United States is 41st in the world in infant mortality. Cuba scores higher (NYT, Jan. 12, 2005).


Source

Originally posted by Muaddib

Soficrow....do you even know that most people in the world are 100 times in a worse situation than you are in here, or most Americans?.... Do you know there are third world countries that have more pollution, there is more injustice, etc etc?....

Most Americans have no idea what they take for granted and what they are willing to throw away for the "old communist promise".... and yes it is the old communist promise, the same one that the left has so willingly embraced in the US.....

[edit on 8-3-2005 by Muaddib]

Muaddib, even though I agree that there are places worse off than America, the last time I checked, this thread was entitled: Bushkrieg: Shock and Awe in AMERICA

It is not Shock and Awe in Haiti


[edit on 3/8/05 by Kidfinger]

Originally posted by Kidfinger
even though I agree that there are places worse off than America, the last time I checked, this thread was entitled: Bushkrieg: Shock and Awe in AMERICA

It is not Shock and Awe in Haiti

Thanks dad.

One lesson in logic, one paternal defense. Owe ya two.

BTW - For an interesting perspective on just how good America really is, check this out:


America: #22; 49; 54 and Falling Fast


.

Damn it sofi you make me sick!

My wife hates you!

I spend so much time reading your stuff on ATS I could become a groupie.

WATS for sofi

I don't agree with everything you post (as you well know) but you are good. This is one of, if not your best.

Forget the naysayers- they are with Brutus. They are the same folks that think America needs to invade other countries (not just Iraq) and form a new Rome. They are the same ones that believe in giving up 'some' freedoms to save the U.S. from Os . . . (what was that guys name?)

Outstanding post sofi
.

.

Kid if that is the voice of the people then maybe we should let Al queda take over.
Its not the voice of the people I know. Its not the America I know.
Everywhere you look in american socety today people want something for nothing. They feel the world owes them a lving. Nothing is ever our fault.
The will of the people, there is no will of the people there are 355 million people all simuteanously screaming "me me me me"
I have no problem helping out someone who is willing to help themselves, but how many are?
People bitch and moan about how we dont provide healthcare for all, how they have to pay for higher eduction, how thier job doesn't pay them enough, and then beg the government to fix it, despite the fact that it isn't the responsibility of the government to be your mommy.
Soficrow showing a study that ranks us low based on access to healthcare, so what?
Since when is healthcare a right? Since when is a good job a right?
Its life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness people. Not the right to happiness, the right to pursue it. Meaning that not all will reach it.
WEe have devolved from a naton of self reliant, independant minded people to a soft coddled, population of welfare sheep and who are so busy sucking on the government tit we cant see that we are locking our own chains.
Go ahead, tie yourself up kidfinger, soficrow, lap up the governments milk, and when your chains are complete, when you cant think without the government telling you what you think, when your health, wealth, welfare, old age, and chldhood, are firmly in the hands of the government then they wll own you cradle to grave.
Me I'll sit back and laugh, I can afford to.

Once Amerca was strong becuase its peoples were strong, our people have weakened, and so our Nation is weakening.
Dawnstar, kidfinger, soficrow, bandit, etc. You and yours are stealing the strength frm america. Competition, the concept which brought us where we are today is now a dirty word. Morals, Values, which gave us the strength t stand against evil, are mocked and rdiculed. Self reliance has become self induced servitude, and all the while you are speeding us faster and faster into destruction.
Why fight when you can whine, why stuggle when you can beg, why work when you can eat government cheese.

Alas poor America, I kenw her well horatio.

soficrow said”
Also FYI - It is only in dictatorships and fascist regimes where people are not allowed to express dissatisfaction or dissent. Think about that.

Get out of here- this isn't true.

Democratic Athens- sentenced people to death for 'treasonous speech'

Monorchial Europe- take a country, death sentences

RNC/DNC - at both conventions people disappeared and were beaten.

Taxes-
Base income- no tax, then:
Straight percentage with NO write-offs (except)!
Allow for medical, house mortgage to say whatever median ends up for that year, that's about it. Maybe a few others.

Flat corporate tax with credits for equipment, employee training (not managerial) and plant only.

Maybe this would sweeten America again to corporations.

Forget this consumption tax stuff- low income people would be penalized as percentage of earnings. It's unfair and would only cause problems.

mwm and others complaining about poor people having new cars, etc. - just remember they are making high interest payments.

The bane of the poor is “me too, me too.” This is one reason so many people stay poor. As mwm pointed out, sacrifice pays off. Most poor people can't make it through the month without a 'little reward.'

Some time back I had some rental properties- almost all my tenants had newer cars than I did. Mine was paid for and theirs weren't.

Penalize the hell out of usurious lenders. These skunks pray on military and poor.

Decriminalize drugs- just tax them really high.

People in prison for getting high makes no sense. Meth labs are the new moonshine and taxes would help pay for the enforcement.

Take 100 sq. miles someplace and make a prison state. Murderers, etc. would have a huge compound away from the rest. The prison state would farm its own food and have some kind of industry.

White collar criminals- jail time! Put them in with the dregs, this wake-up call would straighten out a whole bunch of embezzelers and accountants.

Back to the thread-

Bush isn't done yet, not by a long shot. These things happening now are prelude. The re-making of society won't happen but it will be started. Other than war or massive disasters nothing changes societies quickly.
.

.

[edit on 9-3-2005 by JoeDoaks]

Originally posted by mwm1331
Once Amerca was strong becuase its peoples were strong, our people have weakened, and so our Nation is weakening.
Dawnstar, kidfinger, soficrow, bandit, etc. You and yours are stealing the strength frm america. Competition, the concept which brought us where we are today is now a dirty word. Morals, Values, which gave us the strength t stand against evil, are mocked and rdiculed. Self reliance has become self induced servitude, and all the while you are speeding us faster and faster into destruction.
Why fight when you can whine, why stuggle when you can beg, why work when you can eat government cheese.

Alas poor America, I kenw her well horatio.

ya know, for over a decade, I have taken pencil and paper out every now and then, and well, added up the expenses that I consider necessary, our rent is lower than what HUD is paying for other people to rent, or we were living in the same housing units that hud were paying for. sometimes, we had a car payment (usually a used car) but what do you expect....you need reliable transportation to get to work. And, well, you don't want to know how much we have lost this year in the way of a car broken down and no way to travel the near 100 mile trip to my husband's employment. Medical Insurance, and the out of pocket expenses. I'd add up the necessities, those things that social service also considered necessary and would figure into their necessary figures.
There was no way our income could cover it. I also had a pretty good idea of what they were handing out....and well would try to estimate the value of it. And well, guess what, the value was more than we were making.
And, well, ya know what. I consider who owns most of the rental units around here, and it seems to be politicians.....
So, oh, ya, they pass the laws that increases the amount hud will pay in rent, and then sit on the back end, and rake in the dough?

The poor has become big business in this country.
So, here we have a guy, traveling close to a hundred miles a day, to an employer that is so happy he has him, because he has unique skill the guy couldn't find....that he'll assign his secretary to call up lawmakers trying to get them to put pressure on doctors and hospitals so they will set a broken leg.....
my husband gets paid well above the going rate for a machinist around here, he does.
and yet, we can't make it? and there's no help??

I'm sorry, but if you want to consider us the the source of America's weakness......maybe you should also consider that this little gap that I keep pointing out was put there on purpose? And, share's a bigger responsibility for our weakness.
I mean, what are the choices that people in that gap have? Like I said, my husband is making way above what many machinists are making around here, and he has skills that aren't easily found but are needed. I got a feeling that his boss is paying him as much as he can. And, well, I can no longer work, sorry......ain't putting myself through that kind of pain, and taking the risk involved, don't care.
So, let's see, my husband, could just downgrade his pay, make it so we could fit into those guidelines. Hey, I suspose we could just say heck with our obligations, take out loans and apply for grants, go back to school (we're both well over 40 by the way, so what chance do you think that those loans will be paid off before we die? Or, hey, we could just separate, or heck, really we don't have to, he can just rent of room in some dump somewhere, and still spend his time here. I've had neighbors in those HUD subsidized apartment complexes playing that game. Thus the story of the husband leaving the house and loading his stuff in the car and the argument over who should be working......they got caught.
By what I have seen the past decade or so, the way the social service system is being run, the corruption that is in it, well, gee, you couldn't have designed a better system to break marriages apart!!!


I am stealing the strength from america? What about all those doctors, hospitals, insurance companies, who think nothing of lying in the bill they send our government? Or the government officials that are dishing out money left and right to fund their pet projects, heck, they will even borrow the money for their nice little pets! What about all those nice big companies that stash their money overseas in order to avoid the taxes?
What about those employers out there who could be paying all their employees a decent wage, but don't, knowing that our government will just pick up the tab, and and give us the bill?

Morals and values?? Where?? Maybe if I saw some in the business world, I would believe that there was enough people out there willing and able to give freely to those in need. But as I see it, the employers don't even have enough moral integrity to care for their own!

Originally posted by mwm1331
Once Amerca was strong becuase its peoples were strong, our people have weakened, and so our Nation is weakening.

Once our nation was strong. Then corprate greed reared its ugly head and the monster formed uncompasionate people who value money over country, such as yourself.

Dawnstar, kidfinger, soficrow, bandit, etc. You and yours are stealing the strength frm america.

If we are stealing the strength, then you are stealing the economy. Think about it. Strength is all we have. It is people like you who are trashing the foundation that you so intrepidly preach your monetary embrace from.
The fact is, this country has a monetary rift. If you are not born into money, the chances of you EVER making any are slim to non. Yeah, some are at the right place at the ight time, but even those people already knew somebody, or had a knowlegable connection to get them started. It is quite simple really. It takes money to make money. So what are we to do that dont have any money? Will you loan me some cash so I can start my own business? Didnt think so. Neither will any bank. The money is only for people who already have it. So dont go whining about how we are after your precious fortune.

Competition, the concept which brought us where we are today is now a dirty word. Morals, Values, which gave us the strength t stand against evil, are mocked and rdiculed. Self reliance has become self induced servitude, and all the while you are speeding us faster and faster into destruction.
Why fight when you can whine, why stuggle when you can beg, why work when you can eat government cheese.

Why be a good honest and patriotic American when you can hate your fellow Americans, and throw away any chance they might have of picking themselves up from this economic windfall that Bush has plunged us into.
You speak of values like you know them. It is obvious the only value you know is greed. Pure, unadulterated greed. You have no care for anything else but your bank book. people like us are forced to work hard. We DO know the values you speak of because it is all people like you will let us have. And now you try to take that away?

Alas poor America, I kenw her well horatio.

I know this is a quote, but YOU dont know America well. You know the life in the office with your values and morals protected from the decay of society. The America you know is a lie. One made up so you can feel better about your greed and lack of human compasion. You have said you give to charities. Personelly, I dont believe that, but that is not up to me to prove or disprove. I think that if you really gave to charities, you wouldnt be whining about a higher tax for you because YOU CAN DEDUCT CHARITABLE CONTRIBUTIONS FROM YOUR TAXES! Which would make up for any of your precious money you would have lost from your taxes.

Further more, you preach tolerance and acceptance, but in your tirades all you put forth is bigotry and abuse towards your fellow countrymen. The voice of the people is angering you. The will of the people is what you fear. If I were you, I would fear it to. There will be a time when your money will no longer protect you.



[edit on 3/9/05 by Kidfinger]

Originally posted by mwm1331
Kid if that is the voice of the people then maybe we should let Al queda take over.

No, Im not scared of the boogie man. We will never be attacked agian.

Its not the voice of the people I know. Its not the America I know.

This is because you dont know anyone not in the elite with you. When was the last time you bought a homeless man dinner? I did that two weeks ago. When was the last time you voluteered to help at a charitable orginisation? My wife does it every week. You know nothing but the corprate greed which has infected your viens with disdain for anyone who does not have a place in society such as yourself.

Kidfinger, yur last post shows why you are poor far better than anything I could ever do.

The fact is, this country has a monetary rift. If you are not born into money, the chances of you EVER making any are slim to non. Yeah, some are at the right place at the ight time, but even those people alaready knew somebody, or had a klnowlegable connection to get them started. It is quite simple really. It takes money to make money. So what are we to do that dont have any money? Will you loan me some cash so I can start my own business? Didnt think so. Neither will any bank. The money is only for people who already have it. So dont go whining about how we are after your precious fortune.

Wrong kidfinger. Having money is the easiest way to make money, but its not the only way. More money has been made off ideas, than all the money made from money. I was not born into money, I was born into a trailer park, my mother and father combined made, if they were lucky, 30-40k per year.(in todays dollars) I never met anyone who could "get me started" I got myself started. As for starting your own business kidfinger, there are hundreds of places other than banks you can get a loan, The SBA is one, not too mention being one of the few social programs I feel is both right and efficient. Not to mention the privte business grants, loans etc. whos sole purpose is to dsburse the billions of dollars waiting to be given to those who wish to start a business.
No Kidfinger the money is not only for the people who already have it, and the fact that you think so is the single biggest reason you are poor. You have admitted defeat without ever even stepping on to the battlefield.
Let me offer some free advce kid, go down to your local bookstore, and Buy "think and grow rich" by Napeoloean Hill.
When I first received a copy of that book I was homeless, workng my fngers to the bone at day labor jobs just for enough money to feed myself, and my bed was a childrens slide at a local park. It had been given to another bum I knew in liue of spare chnge, and when he discovered he couldn't sell it (its conditon was too bad even for the used book stores) he threw it away. I have always enjoyed reading so I picked it up.
3 months later I had my own apartment again and a decent job, wthin a few years I was more fnacially successful than both of my parents combined, today, at 27 years old I have already made my first million. Not becuase had any breaks, r becuase was born into t, or becuase I was lucky.
Becuase I learned that the only thing holding me down, was my own attitude.
The fact that you believe in "luck" is a big part of your problem.
We make our own luck kid, and the first step to changing your life, is to change the way you think. Once you have done that, money will fall into your lap like manna from heaven.

Why be a good honest and patriotic American when you can hate your fellow Americans, and throw away any chance they might have of picking themselves up from this economic windfall that Bush has plunged us into.
You speak of values like you know them. It is obvious the only value you know is greed. Pure, unadulterated greed. You have no care for anything else but your bank book. people like us are forced to work hard. We DO know the values you speak of because it is all p[eople like you will let us have. And now you try to take that away?

What does competition have to do with hate kid? My best friend is also my most intense rival professonally. Becuase of our competition our friendshp has grown, and because of our competition we both manage to accopmplish more than either one would otherwise.
I am far from greedy kid, I am also just as far from being a mark. You claim I am greedy becuase I want the rght to choose what the fruits of my labors are used for? I am greedy becuase dont want money I have earned taken away arbtraily and funneled into blackhole programs tht accomplish no good?
You are the greedy one kid, becuase you want to tell me how much of my effort get to profit from. I am not tryng to nor would want to take money out of your pocket, why do you want mine?

I know this is a quote, but YOU dont know America well. You know the life in the office woth your values and morals protected from the decay of society. The America you know is a lie. One made up so you can feel better about your greed and lack of human compasion. You have said you give to charities. Personelly, I dont believe that, but that is not up to me to prove or disprove. I think that if you really gave to charitites, you wouldnt be whining about a higher tax for you because YOU CAN DEDUCT CHARITABLE CONTRIBUTIONS FROM YOUR TAXES! Which would make up for any of your precious money you would have lost from your taxes.

Further more, you preach tolerance and acceptance, but in your tirades all you put forth is bigotry and abuse towards your fellow countrymen. The voice of the people is angering you. The will of the people is what you fear. If I were you, I would fear it to. There will be a time when your money will no longer protect you.

Kid how familiar are you with the tax rules concerning charitble deductons? D you know what the limit is in terms of how much you can deduct? Do you know what the ratio is of monies gven charitibly vs the amount of deducton you receive?
Do you have any idea how little of what I give to charty I actually receive a deduction for?
of course not, why bother when instead you can sit n the bar with your "working class heroes" and bitch about how the "rich" are destroying the country.

Wake up kid. Your poor becuase you dont know how to think like a rich man, you only know how to think like a poor man. As long as you think like a poor man, you will always be one.

Gee, I have plenty of ideas.....
even have a website made up.
I'm waiting for the debt I owe on my credit cards to go down, so I have the credit to get the domain, web host, and the dba.....I start this project while I was working, I knew I wasn't gonna last much longer. Unfortunately, well, when I quit my last couple of paychecks had to go into medical bills, and food and stuff, leaving me without the money I was counting on to get it started. So, for the past three years or so, I've been adding improvements to it, ect....and just waited.
Don't think it will fly too well anyways, really....since part of it requires that I have a means to get around, preferably during business hours...which I don't...

and none of that takes into consideration the fact that the person who is saying this, really believes that me, as a mother and women, shouldn't really be making money anyways, but rather, just relying on the income of her husband....who like I already pointed out, doesn't even bring home the same amount as the government is giving away.....



[edit on 9-3-2005 by dawnstar]

Originally posted by mwm1331
Kidfinger, yur last post shows why you are poor far better than anything I could ever do.

My last post spoke the truth of you and the corprate monsters who are smashing the lower class into the ground.

Wrong kidfinger. Having money is the easiest way to make money, but its not the only way.

well, I am a 32 year old white male. There is NO organisation who will loan me money to start my business. I have searched for over two years for the capital, and yet I am turned down at every corner. THe only loans I can get are for a car, or my school loans. As for the private grants and business loans. THat doesnt work for someone in my position. I am in no mans land. I am not a minority, so I dont qualify, or we make to much money(?) so we dont qualify. The list of excuses goes on and on.

No Kidfinger the money is not only for the people who already have it, and the fact that you think so is the single biggest reason you are poor.

I think I just addressed this and blew holes all in it.

Let me offer some free advce kid, go down to your local bookstore, and Buy "think and grow rich" by Napeoloean Hill.

I have read MANY economic help books. I believe I read the one you are talking about two years ago. They obviously didnt help, but thanks for the 'advce'

You claim I am greedy becuase I want the rght to choose what the fruits of my labors are used for?

No. I claim you are greedy because you would rather hold on to everything you earn and not help anyone that deserves it. You would rather the government just quit taxing you all together so you can live on the shoulders of the less fortunate.

Kid how familiar are you with the tax rules concerning charitble deductons? D you know what the limit is in terms of how much you can deduct? Do you know what the ratio is of monies gven charitibly vs the amount of deducton you receive?

Well, unlike you, I DO my own taxes. So YES, I DO KNOW what kind of a deduction you can get for donating to charitable organisations. I guess you didnt know that there are some sanctioned charities that give almost a 1 for 1 tax break on donations. You should try doing your taxes instead of paying someone to do them. Your ignorance preceeds you.

Wake up kid. Your poor becuase you dont know how to think like a rich man, you only know how to think like a poor man. As long as you think like a poor man, you will always be one.

It is this holier than though attitude you have that is disgusting. They way you see everyone who doesnt have any money is very telling about your views of fellow Americans.

[edit on 3/9/05 by Kidfinger]

Kid what you dont get, is taht poor people think like poor people and the rich think like the rich. Its not about better, it a skll. Just as someone who comes out of Basic training will look at the world differently than he did prior to that training.
Thats the difference.

My last post spoke the truth of you and the corprate monsters who are smashing the lower class into the ground

Uhh yeahh.
So me taking money from european investors, and giving it to amercan companies so they can hre employees, is "smashing the lower class into the ground"?
OK your break from reality seems to be complete.

well, I am a 32 year old white male. There is NO organisation who will loan me money to start my business. I have searched for over two years for the capital, and yet I am turned down at every corner. THe only loans I can get are for a car, or my school loans. As for the private grants and business loans. THat doesnt work for someone in my position. I am in no mans land. I am not a minority, so I dont qualify, or we make to much money(?) so we dont qualify. The list of excuses goes on and on.

Look harder. Contrary to popular belief there are grants and loans out there specifically for white men. Hell there are even government grants for white men.

I have read MANY economic help books. I believe I read the one you are talking about two years ago. They obviously didnt help, but thanks for the 'advce'

reading a book isnt going to do you any good unless you put what you learn into practice. And you have been tryng to get a loan for two years, poor baby, know people who worked at thier dream for 5-10 years before they finally made it happen.

Well, unlike you, I DO my own taxes. So YES, I DO KNOW what kind of a deduction you can get for donating to charitable organisations. I guess you didnt know that there are some sanctioned charities that give almost a 1 for 1 tax break on donations. You should try doing your taxes instead of paying someone to do them. Your ignorance preceeds you.

Yes there are. However you are aware that there is a gross limit as to how much you may deduct?
And that any charitible contributions over and beyond that limit gain you no tax benefit?

It is this holier than though attitude you have that is disgusting. They way you see everyone who doesnt have any money is very telling about your views of fellow Americans.

Like I said Kid the rich and the poor thnk differently, about money, about carreer's about everything. Its a matter of perspective and having an understanding of how money works.
Unless you learn how to thnk like a rich man your only hope is the lotto.

Kidfinger, I am probably gonna get myself into trouble here, but I assure the atsnn staff that I do have the reprint rights to post what I am about to. I have a ton of information like this, maybe it will be helpfull, don't know. But well, in the chance that it might help someone..

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

HOW TO RAISE MONEY FOR STARTING A BUSINESS


The task of raising money for a business is not as difficult as most people seem to think. This is especially true when you have an idea that can make you and your backers rich. Actually, there's more money available for new business ventures than there are good business ideas.

A very important rule of the game to learn: Anytime you want to raise money, your first move should be to put together a proper prospectus.

This prospectus should include a resume of your background, your education, training, experience and any other personal qualities that might be counted as an asset to your potential success. It's also a good idea to list the various loans you've had in the past, what they were for, and your history in paying them off.

You'll have to explain in detail how the money you want is going to be used. If it's for an existing business, you'll need a profit and loss record for at least the preceding six months, and a plan showing how this additional money will produce greater profits. If it's a new business, you'll have to show your proposed business plan, your marketing research and projected costs, as well as anticipated income figures, with a summary for each year, over at least a three year period.

It'll be advantageous to you to base your cost estimates high, and your income projections on minimal returns. This will enable you to "ride thru" those extreme "ups and downs" inherent in any beginning business. You should also describe what makes your
business unique - how it differs from your competition, and the opportunities for expansion or secondary products.

This prospectus will have to state precisely what you're offering the investor in return for the use of his money. He'll want to know the percentage of interest you're willing to pay, and whether monthly, quarterly or on an annual basis. Are you offering a certain percentage of the profits? A percentage of the business? A seat on your board of directors?

An investor uses his money to make more money. He wants to make as much as he can, regardless whether it's a short term or long term deal. In order to attract him, interest him, and persuade him to "put up" the money you need, you'll not only have to offer him an opportunity for big profits, but you'll have to spell it out in detail, and further, back up your claims with proof from your marketing research.

Venture investors are usually quite familiar with "high risk" proposals, yet they all want to minimize that risk as much as possible. Therefore, your prospectus should include a listing of your business and personal assets with documentation - usually copies of your tax returns for the past three years or more. Your prospective investor may not know anything about you or your business, but if he wants to know, he can pick up his telephone and know everything there is to know within 24 hours. The point here is, don't ever try to "con" a potential investor. Be honest with him. Lay all the facts on the table for him. In most cases, if you've got a good idea and you've done your homework properly, an "interested investor" will understand your position and offer more help than you dared to ask.

When you have your prospectus prepared, know how much money you want, exactly how it will be used, and how you intend to repay it, you're ready to start looking for investors.

As simple as it seems, one of the easiest ways of raising money is by advertising in a newspaper or a national publication featuring such ads. Your ad should state the amount of money you want - always ask for more money than you need so you have room
for negotiating. Your ad should also state the type of business involved (to separate the curious from the truly interested), and the kind of return you're promising on the investment.

Take a page from the party plan merchandisers. Set up a party and invite your friends over. Explain your business plan, the profit potentials, and how much you need. Give them each a copy of your prospectus and ask that they pledge a thousand dollars as
a non-participating partner in your business. Check with the current tax regulations. You may be allowed up to 25 partners in Sub Chapter 5 enterprises, opening the door for anyone to gather a group of friends around himself with something to offer them in return for their assistance in capitalizing his business.

You can also issue and sell up to $300,000 worth of stock in your company with out going through the Federal Trade Commission. You'll need the help of an attorney to do this, however, and of course a good tax accountant as well wouldn't hurt.

It's always a good idea to have an attorney and an accountant help you make up your business prospectus. As you explain your plan to them, and ask for their advice, casually ask them if they'd mind letting you know of, or steer your way any potential investors they might happen to meet. Do the same with your banker. Give him a copy of your prospectus and ask him if he'd look it over and offer any suggestions for improving it, and of course, let you know of any potential investors. In either case, it's always a good idea to let them know you're willing to pay a "finder's fee" if you can be directed to the right investor.

Professional people such as doctors and dentists are known to have a tendency to join occupational investment groups. The next time you talk with your doctor or dentist, give him a prospectus and explain your plan. He may want to invest on his own or
perhaps set up an appointment for you to talk with the manager of his investment group. Either way, you win because when you're looking for money, it's essential that you get the word out to as many potential investors as possible.

Don't overlook the possibilities of the Small Business Investment Companies in your area. Look them up in your telephone book under "Investment Services." These companies exist for the sole purpose of lending money to businesses which they feel have a good chance of making money. In many instances, they trade their help for a small interest in your company.

Many states have Business Development Commissions whose goal is to assist in the establishment and growth of new businesses. Not only do they offer favorable taxes and business expertise, most also offer money or facilities to help a new business get
started. Your Chamber of Commerce is the place to check for further information on this idea.

Industrial banks are usually much more amenable to making business loans than regular banks, so be sure to check out these institutions in your area. Insurance companies are prime sources of long term business capital, but each company varies its policies regarding the type of business it will consider. Check your local agent for the name and address of the person to contact. It's also quite possible to get the directors of an other company to invest in your business. Look for a company that can benefit from your product or service. Also, be sure to check at your public library for available foundation grants. These can be the final answer to all your money needs if your business is perceived to be related to the objectives and activities of the foundation.

Finally, there's the Money Broker or Finder. These are the people who take your prospectus and circulate it with various known lenders or investors. They always require an up-front or retainer fee, and there's no way they can guarantee to get you the loan or the money you want.

There are many very good money brokers, and there are some that are not so good. They all take a percentage of the gross amount that's finally procured for your needs. The important thing is to check them out fully; find out about the successful loans or investment plans they've arranged, and what kind of investor contacts they have - all of this before you put up any front money or pay any retainer fees.

There are many ways to raise money - from staging garage sales to selling stocks. Don't make the mistake of thinking that the only place you can find the money you need is through the bank or finance company.

Start thinking about the idea of inviting investors to share in your business as silent partners. Think about the idea of obtaining financing for a primary business by arranging financing for another business that will support the start-up, establishment and development of the primary business. Consider the feasibility of merging with a company that's already organized, and with facilities that are compatible or related to your needs. Give some thought to the possibilities of getting the people supplying your production equipment to co-sign the loan you need for start-up capital.

Remember, there are thousands upon thousands of ways to obtain business start-up capital. This is truly the age of creative financing.

Disregard the stories you hear of "tight money," and start making phone calls, talking to people, and making appointments to discuss your plans with the people who have money to invest. There's more money now than there's ever been for new business
investment. The problem is that most beginning "business builders" don't know what to believe or which way to turn for help. They tend to believe the stories of "tight money," and they set aside their plans for a business of their own until a time when start-up money might be easier to find.

The truth is this: Now is the time to make your move. Now is the time to act. The person with a truly viable business plan, and determination to succeed, will make use of every possible idea that can be imagined. And the ideas I've suggested here should serve as just a few of the unlimited sources of monetary help available and waiting for you!

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Like I said, I have alot of this kind of stuff...it came on a disk with well, a few things that I found to be usefull in building my site. If anyone's interested in anything like it, well, just let me know....
this isn't a sales offer, won't be put on any mailing list or nothing, and well, if you believe the hype that comes with the stuff, gee, people are paying $10 or more for it.....
I just believe that knowledge and information should be given freely....so, whatever....I guess.

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