OP/ED: Bushkrieg: Shock and Awe in America

The obvious detractors again have failed to give credence to the content, without forcing themselves into any sort of logical endorsement for the very programs/laws that the current administration is pushing.
Meaning, you can have your vicarious battle against Fidel all you want, but please offer a counter point endorsing what you are defacto endorsing?
Where's your argument/data showing that class action negligence suits have made Americans less safe against defective products?
Where are your arguments/data showing how the middle class will prosper by having their bankruptcy safeguards stripped away?
Where are your arguments/data showing that a federal sales tax coexisting with a federal income tax ( while corporate taxes have been slashed) is going to somehow put more purchasing power in the hands of our consumer driven economy ?

The positioning of the argument in "good & evil" terms is simplistic, emotional and shows that you're either unresearched, unaware or willfully attempting to mislead.
The reason where some in opposition might use it is because the multi-front assault of trying to implement these measures concurrently can be perceived to surpass stupidity and come damn close to class warfare......that can be considered evil......warfare on countrymen with the dividing line being only economic.
I'm not of this generation and it clearly is not a "whining" about curtailed access to "sex & drugs". Nor is it people on par with Basque Seperatist posting about "civil war, terror manifestos". It's clearly people taking an erudite perspective into discussion over Trickle Down Theory being applied to the American experiment.
Maybe because I grew up in a working poor household, maybe because I'm management by the efforts of union parents. Whatever it may be, I'm capable of paying taxes that surpass many incomes, and because of that, I'm able to engage people who advise me on how to minimize it that much more. Most of the arguments endorsing these Trickle Down policies by those in my tax bracket are ludacrous; we're not being "disadvantaged". We're not being "unfairly targeted for being successful". We're assuring our future as a country & society, which should be evidenced by anyone who came from poor roots and is at this earnings strata.
It's simply a mindset: Some make it & want to pull the rope up after them, others want to put in a staircase. Which one are you?

Really Marg? No one is penalising me?
Well I disagree. I see the fact that I pay the highest tax rate in America as an unfair penalty.
I see the fact that a janitor pays less percentage wise than I do as a penalty.
Yes at the same percentage I will still pay more, thats fine. but why do I pay a higher percentage?
That is IMHO discrimination.

Originally posted by Kidfinger


No, that is not what I am saying at all. I am simply saying that if I had more I would give more. If other Americans held this philosophy, we wouldnt be in the mess we are in. I believe in compassion for my fellow citizens. I believe in the direct helping of other needy people. I believe in loving thy neighbor and supporting my friends. It is not so evil as you make it sound. I have compasion for my fellow Americans that I believe is lost to the top 3% of the economic elite. For them, it is about the amassing of wealth and the gratification of material substance.

Again though Kidfinger this isn't about giving, its about taking.
If I choose to give its my choice.
If money is taken in the form of taxes I have no choice.
You see kid I also believe in charity, compasson and giving, what I dont believe in is being forced to give, with no control over who that money is given to.

So what if it is about the amassing of material wealth, not your first prioirty nor mine, but who are we to say those who have that as thier first priority are wrong?
Is it not thier right under "life liberty and the pursuit of happiness to be a miser if they wish?


[edit on 7-3-2005 by mwm1331]

Originally posted by mwm1331
Really Marg? No one is penalising me?
Well I disagree. I see the fact that I pay the highest tax rate in America as an unfair penalty.
I see the fact that a janitor pays less percentage wise than I do as a penalty.
Yes at the same percentage I will still pay more, thats fine. but why do I pay a higher percentage?
That is IMHO discrimination.

You are not alone MWM, my husband and I pay too but I still defend the lest fortunate because we all hard working Americans.

MWM, how do you think I feel about having a brother that will never have to worry if he is going to get a pay check or worries about if he has to pay bills. Drive a 200 thousand dollar car and live the life because it happens to married into that wealthy elite that we don't get to see unless is in magazine.

My brother does, he doesn't have to work and neither his wife, she lives on a trusth fund from her wealthy grandfater's empire.

When I ask him how it feels, he said that is no words to despcribe it.

Well guess what that is the people that control our country they don't have to worry about taxes like you and me.

Originally posted by mwm1331

Again though Kidfinger this isn't about giving, its about taking.
If I choose to give its my choice.

Have you ever checked the extra tax donation box on your tax forms? I have..............

And bout your argument that discussing the inherant unfairness of the tax system is IMHO intentionally distracting.
I feel it is a perfectly valid issue.
The simple fact is I dont have a problem paying more what I object to is paying a higher percentage I am not attempting to pull up a rope, I just dont want that rope tied around my feet.
I am more than willing to give to charity, and I do, what i object to is being forced to do so.
What I object to is being told I will be dscriminated against and that its OK becuse I can afford it.
Since when does what people can afford have anything to do with fairness?
Most of the people in my income level could afford a 80% tax and still not go hungry, what does that have to do with equality?

Originally posted by Kidfinger

Originally posted by mwm1331

Again though Kidfinger this isn't about giving, its about taking.
If I choose to give its my choice.

Have you ever checked the extra tax donation box on your tax forms? I have..............

Kid to be honest I dont check any boxes, I have people for that.

Originally posted by mwm1331



Kid to be honest I dont check any boxes, I have people for that.

Another luxury I can not afford. Maybe you should try and do that next time. Then you would see all the avalible options there are to give a little more. Maybe if you chose to give a little more, the government wouldnt have to take a whole lot more.

[edit on 3/7/05 by Kidfinger]

Kid I give more to charities than 50% of the country makes every year.
That isn't the problem.
Truth be told I give more to the united way, the march of dimes, the salvaton army etc. than I pay in taxes. My problem is as I have said the percentage I pay.
The simple fact is the tax system takes more percentage wise from the wealthy than the poor.
It is discrimintaion and unfairness.

mwm1331,

You did see where I agreed that an across the board tax of 25% would be a good idea?

.
.
.
Re: taxes.


Bush has been on a 4 year spending spree - and he's taken America from a budget surplus to a $7.7 Trillion dollar national debt. At the same time, he lowered taxes for the rich and eased up on corporate taxes. To make up the difference, he cut funding to benefits for ordinary Americans. But there's still not enough money. And it has to come from somewhere.

STRAIGHT from the SOURCE: The President

And the problem is, in 2018, the (Social Security) system starts losing money. In 2027, it's $200 billion in the hole and it gets bigger every year thereafter.

...we can't pay for the promises we've made - that's the problem.

The proposed federal consumption tax is meant to bring in more money. Out of ordinary Americans' pockets. While it protects the already rich and spurs entrepreneurial activity. It really doesn't take rocket science to figure this one out.

STRAIGHT from the SOURCE: The White House Press Release

...the Treasury Secretary will report back to the President, so that we can move forward on reforming our tax code.

..........

STRAIGHT from the SOURCE: ThePresident

...I believe a simplified tax code will spur entrepreneurial activity.


Republican Think Tank: The Institute for Policy Innovation (IPI) on Tax Reform. 2003

The federal consumption tax is a tax grab, just like the Social Security scam is a cash grab. Pure and simple. It will protect Bush's rich corporate buddies and let them off the hook - like all his other legislation - and make ordinary Americans pay for his 4-year spending spree, by ourselves, with no back-up or help.



.

Yeah I di but you also said that the current tax system was not discriminatory.
See my problem Kid is I believe in America. I belive in equality.
I believe all citizens should be treated equally under law, as opposed to the system of beneficial discriminaton we currently have.
Whether its AA, Womens rights, black rights, gay rights, taxes, etc. I believe we should all be treated equally.
I don't believe in hate crimes laws, equal rights laws, etc. becuase of that.
Why a special law to protect women gays etc?
Why not just a law that says its illegal to discrimnate for any reason, sex, sexual orientation, color religon whatever?
Why not tax everbody at the same rate and let private charties become the safety net?
Why not force colleges to simply pick the people with the best grades rather than having racial quotas?
Unfortunately I seem to be the only person who understands that the only form of discrimination the US goverment can legally impose is discriminatng betweenn US citizens and non US citizens.

Originally posted by mwm1331

See my problem Kid is I believe in America. I belive in equality.

I dont see that as a problem.

I believe all citizens should be treated equally under law, as opposed to the system of beneficial discriminaton we currently have.
Whether its AA, Womens rights, black rights, gay rights, taxes, etc. I believe we should all be treated equally.

mwm133, it would seem we have many outward views in common. Our dissagreement just seems to be how to accomplish it in a realistic way. Not that your way is not realistic, but rather we are both having trouble understanding each others reasons for the stances we are taking.

I don't believe in hate crimes laws, equal rights laws, etc. becuase of that.
Why a special law to protect women gays etc?
Why not just a law that says its illegal to discrimnate for any reason, sex, sexual orientation, color religon whatever?
Why not tax everbody at the same rate and let private charties become the safety net?
Why not force colleges to simply pick the people with the best grades rather than having racial quotas?
Unfortunately I seem to be the only person who understands that the only form of discrimination the US goverment can legally impose is discriminatng betweenn US citizens and non US citizens.

You simply cant have a catch all law. It creates to many loopholes in our legal system. The problem is, our leagal system has grown and evolved to a much different beast than it used to be. This inharently creates a catch 22. So we are back to square one. If my way wont work in your eyes and vice versa, then there has to be a logical and reasonable fix that most everyone can agree on. That is where the 25% across the board tax comes in. I do realize that this is misleading because you are still paying a higer amount of money than before, but you would have the same percentage as the rest of us.





[edit on 3/7/05 by Kidfinger]

Originally posted by Bout Time
The obvious detractors again have failed to give credence to the content, without forcing themselves into any sort of logical endorsement for the very programs/laws that the current administration is pushing.
Meaning, you can have your vicarious battle against Fidel all you want, but please offer a counter point endorsing what you are defacto endorsing?
Where's your argument/data showing that class action negligence suits have made Americans less safe against defective products?
Where are your arguments/data showing how the middle class will prosper by having their bankruptcy safeguards stripped away?
Where are your arguments/data showing that a federal sales tax coexisting with a federal income tax ( while corporate taxes have been slashed) is going to somehow put more purchasing power in the hands of our consumer driven economy ?

I agree with you where is the beef. he, he, he

Sometimes I wonder as why the working class American is so step on by every body, from politicians that are supposed to be for the regular citizens, by religious group that target them for been confused by politicians, by corporations that their prime target are working Americans.

When the working class stands up and complain, they are tag as socialist Is just beyond me.

We are the sheep, follow, get screw and keep quiet or else you will be targeted a terrorist under the patriot act, is just so ridiculous I don't know if I should laugh or cried in out rage.

[edit on 7-3-2005 by marg6043]

Originally posted by marg6043

When the working class stands up and complain, they are tag as socialist Is just beyond me.

We are the sheep, follow, get screw and keep quiet or else you will be targeted a terrorist under the patriot act, is just so ridiculous I don't know if I should laugh or cried in out rage.

They call us names to shut us up - and to try and convince everyone else that:

1. Our facts are suspect; and

2. Our opinions don't count.


Just keep speaking up and speaking out. They're a shrinking minority.


.

No doubt America has been controlled by Oil/Defense corporations since the Kennedy assassination, likely carried out by the Bush/Neocon Cabal. Since 911 inside job, the fascists of this country have been coming out rapidly progressing their agenda directing America straight towards a Police controlled state, stamping it with "all in the name of security!"

American society is now being slowly molded into accepting police check-points, random inspections, phone tapping, detention without reason, imprisonment without trial. Pretty soon we'll be tasered for failing to provide ID while entering a local sports entertainment venue.

Police Arrest 8-Year-Old
Police defend use of Taser on girl, 13
US developing 'pain from a distance' weapon
Dad Accused Of Chuck E. Cheese Salad Theft Zapped By Police
Student Arrested For Writing Zombie Fiction Story
Photos and Videos From Inside New York's Pier 57 Detention Center

you forget torture....
they seem to want us conditioned into believing that some amoung us deserve to be tortured, for whatever reason they can come up with at the time, or maybe a reason isn't needed......

Originally posted by syntaxer

American society is now being slowly molded into accepting police check-points, random inspections, phone tapping, detention without reason, imprisonment without trial. Pretty soon we'll be tasered for failing to provide ID while entering a local sports entertainment venue.

Police Arrest 8-Year-Old
Police defend use of Taser on girl, 13
US developing 'pain from a distance' weapon
Dad Accused Of Chuck E. Cheese Salad Theft Zapped By Police
Student Arrested For Writing Zombie Fiction Story
Photos and Videos From Inside New York's Pier 57 Detention Center

Great links. Thanks. Good to have them collected in one place.

FYI - Speak out, but politley and with good grace.


.

Originally posted by dawnstar
you forget torture....
they seem to want us conditioned into believing that some amoung us deserve to be tortured, for whatever reason they can come up with at the time, or maybe a reason isn't needed......

Not only that DS, but we are being molded to accept that certain mistreatments of fellow human beings isnt torture as well.

[edit on 3/7/05 by Kidfinger]

Originally posted by djohnsto77
I wish all Americans could attack Canada and Canadian politicians the way soficrow attacks America and our President.

do you think 'all americans' DISAGREE with soficrow?
soficrow knows that canada and it's politicians are no better, there are just less of an issue because of the gravity of population and the issue of military mindset and power.
the states is the wind, canada is but a reed swaying to the force of the wind. why bother talking about how the reed can stop the wind. or how the wind might stink, but the reed stinks too so now the wind DOESN'T stink?
i wish everything didn't have to turn into a competition of argument semantics.
and, p.s. "all americans" don't do ANYTHING unilaterally. it's not in the 'program'. you might like north korea as a great place for 'group think' and 'group do'.