Issuing a challenge to conservative's

I wonder how the business class would respond to a deal like this?

We get rid of the minimum wage in law.

In exchange for booting out the money bag lobbyists in Washington DC. Lobbyists with empty wallets will be allowed.
We trade only with other countries that have an equal standard of living to ours and organized labor is allowed as is expected under free market capitalism.

No products from third world or communist countries are allowed in.

originally posted by: neo96
a reply to: narrator

Try again.

Business owners will be too busy paying off the loans to modernize

So WHERE?

We can help get the loans payed off quicker by replacing the owner with AI software.
There will be no need for him either.

originally posted by: Middleoftheroad
8X the minimum wage here in Indiana is $120,640/year. That is enough to buy a decent home in a decent area here.

And this is the Crux of socialist ignorance. If everybody in your town made $120,000 a year and started buying homes; the people selling the homes would simply sell their home for more not just because they can, bit because they must in order to pay the rising prices around them.

A guy flipping a burger that used to make $14k a year is now making 120k; so the cost of a $7 burger is now $70. Back to that house you were going to buy, that $120,000 home you mentioned, it now sells for $1,200,000. And guess what, the middle class is eliminated. It truly becomes the haves, and the have nothings.

The divide in quality of life between "the haves" and the "have nothings" is greater under socialism than capitalism. Under socialism, you go starving or you get fat; the vast majority of mouths starve and a minority gets fat. Capitalism can be said to be the exact same result, but with one vastly important difference. Under capitalism, you go starving or you get fat; the vast majority of mouths get fat while the minority of mouths starve.

I've been poor under both socialism and capitalism. Poor is better under capitalism.

a reply to: toysforadults

lol... oh boy... If the left's argument was just about the "minimum wage being increased to $15", you could have an argument to be made. But the fact is that's not the only "change" you want. You want the new "green deal" which will cost billions of dollars a year, you want "medicare for all" which will cost over 3 trillion a year alone. You want a "carbon tax", alongside many other taxes which will be paid by the tax payers. You want "other socialist programs" implemented, such as the government having control and owning all infrastructure, etc, etc. So "your attempt" at claiming "conservatives won't argue with me because of this thread" is ridiculous and dishonest.

On one hand you want to give some, and on the other hand you want to take more than you give.

I work as a Plumber and have been for the last 7 years. Why? So I don't have to work for minimum wage. If you want affordable living wages, learn a trade or craft. Don't be lazy and think you can have a worth-while career flipping burgers.

a reply to: JoeGee

everyone working in the supply chain should just quit and we'll see how valuable those jobs are what their worth when you have no food to eat

let's do an experiment

all of the jobs you guys consider below you such as restaurant workers, warehouse workers and people working in grocery stores or retail...

let's get rid of all of those jobs and see what you think about our society at that point, let's see how it impacts the quality of your life

a reply to: toysforadults

Characteristics of minimum wage workers, 2017
Characteristics of minimum wage workers, 2017 image
In 2017, 80.4 million workers age 16 and older in the United States were paid at hourly rates, representing 58.3 percent of all wage and salary workers. Among those paid by the hour, 542,000 workers earned exactly the prevailing federal minimum wage of $7.25 per hour. About 1.3 million had wages below the federal minimum. Together, these 1.8 million workers with wages at or below the federal minimum made up 2.3 percent of all hourly paid workers.

You are talking roughly about 1.8 million people in the USA. Not even 3 percent of the workforce. If you are thirty, and still working a minimum wage, I don’t have much sympathy. The odd think about minimum wage jobs, and restaurant jobs, they don’t usually drug test. Hmmm? Wonder why a person at the age of thirty would work a minimum wage job? Especially when they could go to a staffing agency, take a drug test, and get a better job? For some, the party never ends.

Then you have this

Estimates reflect racial disparities in felony convictions during era of mass incarceration.

news.uga.edu...

New research led by a University of Georgia sociologist on the growth in the scope and scale of felony convictions finds that, as of 2010, 3 percent of the total U.S. population and 15 percent of the African-American male population have served time in prison. People with felony convictions more broadly account for 8 percent of the overall population and 33 percent of the African-American male population.

Would it be true to say it would be easier for a felon to get a minimum wage job than any other type?

originally posted by: toysforadults
let's do an experiment

all of the jobs you guys consider below you such as restaurant workers, warehouse workers and people working in grocery stores or retail...

let's get rid of all of those jobs and see what you think about our society at that point, let's see how it impacts the quality of your life

The term is "trade skills"
Remember that
Very important when speaking (or posting) on this sort of topic.
Taking classes is too hard
Studying all the information is too hard
Passing all those tests for certifications is too hard.
end sarcasm (truthful sarcasm)
MCSE
RHCSE
CCNA
Other various certs
Going to go for my VCP soon

And I am old

a reply to: GenerationGap

A guy flipping a burger that used to make $14k a year is now making 120k; so the cost of a $7 burger is now $70.

Especially when I can make four quarter pound hamburgers at home for around eight dollars?

Many of my friends have been eating out less and less. While restaurants are increasing automation.

New Study Suggests Minimum Wage Leads To Automation Of Low-Skill Workers
www.forbes.com...

Burger-flipping robot begins first shift
www.bbc.com...

a reply to: Gothmog

Or serving in the military for a marketable job skill?

originally posted by: neutronflux
a reply to: Gothmog

Or serving in the military for a marketable job skill?

Yes. I know someone that did.
Took a while , yet it paid off.

a reply to: ElectricUniverse

Exactly! How far do they think those $15/hr go when they are taxing so much to have all those other so-called free things?

It's like saying you can eat whatever you want, but only after you chip in $2 to help the elderly all have pizza, $2 to help all the poor people order Chinese, and $2 in order to help the disabled all buy hamburgers. All those all worthy causes? I guess ... sure, but if you only have $10 dollars and what you wanted to eat costs even $5, guess you're SOL and better buy something cheaper. But, you can sure eat whatever you want, right?

I have a question for the OP before I answer the question.

Before 1961, which organization(s) compiled minimum wage statistics?

The minimum wage is always eventually self-defeating and unnecessary in a free society, but if applied locally and prudently, it will usually not tear down an economy. Even though I believe the minimum wage should be zero, it's not an awful thing for a city here, or a state there, passing a minimum wage law. Businesses have the opportunity to leave to another city or state if they are unable to cope.

The $15 federal minimum wage, on the other hand, is the absolute pinnacle of economic stupidity. It benefits corporations and pummels small business and it enriches the CEO's and impoverishes the labor class. If you are a liberal and your goal is to help workers by passing this law, then why on earth would you pass a law that makes them less competitive in the marketplace against automation and foreign labor? The non-skilled labor job market is very crowded in the global economy, and no corporation is going to tolerate it, especially not such cheap wages available to them in SE Asia.

It makes entry level positions in high-school and college near impossible to find, and extremely crowded. Many current sub-$15/hr employees working full time with benefits will be forced into part time and lose health insurance.

Many liberals in the country are absolutely dead-set on creating a completely corporate country. Who do these morons think will survive this law? Big money power players (the very people the left claims to hate) are the ones who will be able to leverage themselves during this time by using financial resources to put the pressure on the competition, and once the competition is sufficiently stunted, then they can turn their eyes toward automation. After all, at $15/hr, robots start looking a look prettier. Wal-Mart has already begun this transition in states that have passed future minimum wage hikes.

originally posted by: jacobe001
I wonder how the business class would respond to a deal like this?

We get rid of the minimum wage in law.

In exchange for booting out the money bag lobbyists in Washington DC. Lobbyists with empty wallets will be allowed.
We trade only with other countries that have an equal standard of living to ours and organized labor is allowed as is expected under free market capitalism.

No products from third world or communist countries are allowed in.

So I’m guessing you don’t like free trade ? Japan currently only uses their own products. They do pay a higher price but corporations don’t leave the country. Don’t we already not trade with Cuba? We have sanctions against nKorea... I don’t remember seeing any products that say made in N Korea. Didn’t they just ask Potus Trump to lift sanctions? Lastly, the globalists and Socialists are who ran our own companies and manufacturers out of country by instituting regulations. If we cannot manufacture , then we have to buy products from other countries. Then we’d be like Cuba and have toilet paper shortages. But that’s what the globalists wanted to do to us in their wish to make every other country more prosperous.

originally posted by: kizell
The minimum wage is always eventually self-defeating and unnecessary in a free society, but if applied locally and prudently, it will usually not tear down an economy. Even though I believe the minimum wage should be zero, it's not an awful thing for a city here, or a state there, passing a minimum wage law. Businesses have the opportunity to leave to another city or state if they are unable to cope.

The $15 federal minimum wage, on the other hand, is the absolute pinnacle of economic stupidity. It benefits corporations and pummels small business and it enriches the CEO's and impoverishes the labor class. If you are a liberal and your goal is to help workers by passing this law, then why on earth would you pass a law that makes them less competitive in the marketplace against automation and foreign labor? The non-skilled labor job market is very crowded in the global economy, and no corporation is going to tolerate it, especially not such cheap wages available to them in SE Asia.

It makes entry level positions in high-school and college near impossible to find, and extremely crowded. Many current sub-$15/hr employees working full time with benefits will be forced into part time and lose health insurance.

Many liberals in the country are absolutely dead-set on creating a completely corporate country. Who do these morons think will survive this law? Big money power players (the very people the left claims to hate) are the ones who will be able to leverage themselves during this time by using financial resources to put the pressure on the competition, and once the competition is sufficiently stunted, then they can turn their eyes toward automation. After all, at $15/hr, robots start looking a look prettier. Wal-Mart has already begun this transition in states that have passed future minimum wage hikes.

Also I understand that Progressives want to legislate Medicare for all and at the same time eliminate employer paid health care. I’m sure many corporations would sign on for that but that would eliminate another piece of the free market. Not a good thing. To use Trumps wording, that would be bad very bad. If GOP
Votes for $&()like that, it would show they don’t understand how we got where we are now.

I'll accept your experiment, only if you accept the same experiment in reverse. I can accept that if all those people quit they wouldn't be able to sustain themselves, nor would the 'rich' people, because who would ring up their food or box up their amazon stuff. So, yes I get your prediction about quality of life. It would essentially lead to a world where people would have to take an more responsibility. The priest could no longer buy food from a grocery store, and the would-be grocery store worker would no longer be able to buy anything. So they both would have to hunt/gather/engage in some agriculture if they want to cling to life. Stealing is also an option but ill assume we both think this is bad, right?

Now lets do another experiment... Lets get rid of those other people, not the ones 'they' (whomever they is) consider to be "below" 'them', but the remainder of the people. The remainder include people that provide other options aside from finding your own food.

Get rid of all the other people, what happens? exactly the same thing in your experiment. One group has to find a way to get food, and so does the other group. You frame it as though one group is the only component needed to achieve a good quality of life.

Getting rid of all those jobs/job makers achieves the same result. More individual responsibility. On the other hand, we could force a potential grocery store employer to pay someone a specific minimum amount and it would, in contrast, be like forcing the employee to work a certain minimum amount of time.

Framing a minimum wage increase as good, assumes what precedes it as also good. Because good things don't require you to first do harm, right? You need 'force' to achieve a minimum wage, you also would need force to achieve slavery. the free market is what avoids the force needed. It assumes you can achieve good by, first, not doing harm to people.

So we can all whine about what we want, I can whine that I cant get anyone to work for my low wages, and the unemployed can whine about not having a job. The 'whining' is simply what fills in the void where responsibility used to be. The employer might need to be more responsible by increasing their pay rate, and the potential employee might need to be more responsible by increasing their value. An employer could decide to not hire anyone and do the work themselves, thus becoming the 'worker', and an employee can quit and decide to become someone that employs people.

Free market just means no external force applied to it like slavery or minimum wage. We can argue whether or not a free market would work or not, but in science, you need to run the experiment first to know if your assumptions are correct, and we haven't run it yet. So, you cannot say, with any significant evidence, that a free market is subjectively better or worse, but you can absolutely say its based on 'good' behaviors, 'good' as in no authoritarian force/minimum wage/slavery.

Which is your preference, a free or an authoritarian market?

originally posted by: neutronflux
a reply to: toysforadults

Characteristics of minimum wage workers, 2017
Characteristics of minimum wage workers, 2017 image
In 2017, 80.4 million workers age 16 and older in the United States were paid at hourly rates, representing 58.3 percent of all wage and salary workers. Among those paid by the hour, 542,000 workers earned exactly the prevailing federal minimum wage of $7.25 per hour. About 1.3 million had wages below the federal minimum. Together, these 1.8 million workers with wages at or below the federal minimum made up 2.3 percent of all hourly paid workers.

You are talking roughly about 1.8 million people in the USA. Not even 3 percent of the workforce. If you are thirty, and still working a minimum wage, I don’t have much sympathy. The odd think about minimum wage jobs, and restaurant jobs, they don’t usually drug test. Hmmm? Wonder why a person at the age of thirty would work a minimum wage job? Especially when they could go to a staffing agency, take a drug test, and get a better job? For some, the party never ends.

Then you have this

Estimates reflect racial disparities in felony convictions during era of mass incarceration.

news.uga.edu...

New research led by a University of Georgia sociologist on the growth in the scope and scale of felony convictions finds that, as of 2010, 3 percent of the total U.S. population and 15 percent of the African-American male population have served time in prison. People with felony convictions more broadly account for 8 percent of the overall population and 33 percent of the African-American male population.

Would it be true to say it would be easier for a felon to get a minimum wage job than any other type?

What about women who stayed home to raise their children or didn’t spend their whole life climbing the corporate ladder to sacrifice their time with children. I guess all of us were supposed to care more about the corporate lifestyle or even put off having children till we were no longer able to .... are you a guy or a woman who scrabbles into a cut throat ceo position? Or possibly an attorney who makes a living off divorces.... or maybe a teacher with a publicly paid pension that I had to pay for while putting my own son through a private school so that he wouldn’t be exposed to so much secular humanism. I’ve seen so many older women flipping burgers at Mc D’s or waiting tables or at the cash register at the grocery. This is a pitiable State of affairs. Have you forgotten the Norma Rae’s of the world ... or the Karen Silkwoods of the world (She worked at the only business in her area where people could get jobs... and that was a nuclear facility where she was exposed to Plutonium I believe ). Even I worked in my fathers business and did not climb the corporate ladder but was a part-owner as my Dad said, but I was stuck looking for a retail job when the company was sold. My next move was to make myself more employable by going back to school. 50,000$ and 6 years later( because I was working and putting my son through school) I had a degree in network and communications but no job and a recession which sacked my investments and 401k. Stuff happens and in this Obama happened so I joined the Tea Party to protest Obama’s Marxist Bulll $&(/. So here we are. I’ve worked in health care now which is one of the top rising jobs now because so many boomers are in decay. I cleaned toilets and cleaned up diapers for WW II veterans (actually one my favorite clients). You know that company I worked for couldn’t give me a raise I deserved when I gave 200% to all my clients because it interfaces with Medicaid and government entities and there are rules for pay and guess what my clients Wondered why I was getting 10 bucks an hour while they were paying 60$/hr for the service. By the way I was invited to the memorial service by my veterans family because they appreciated my service.
But don’t get me wrong I am still for free enterprise and still against this socialist garbage and I thank
God for a President who cares about us commoners who have to pay taxes so that Nancy Pelosi
Can get wealthy from insider trading while trying to raise my taxes to 90#.
And I’m still fighting for free enterprise though in my lifetime we may still be under the thumb of that entity which was given the control of our economy and the ability to raise the rate of inflation while my taxes go to bailing out stupid companies like Solyndra or bail out the banks or Fannie/Freddie while Barney fufu buffs his nails on national tv. I’m so disgusted now stupid people voted in these nut flakes who now want 90# of my little paycheck in the name of soaking the rich guys.
I have a better job now though and Im grateful for a President who wants to bring good jobs back. (And oh yah entry level networking I was told is tech support in a call center which mostly has been OUTSOURCED to India)
No thanks to you and your snobby attitude.

If we were still on the Gold Standard in accordance with the U.S. constitution the minimum wage would never have needed to be increased because the value of money would either be the same or go up in value. The value of money would go up instead of down because gold is a limited resource. We would also not have an expanding wealth gap between rich & poor if we were still on the Gold Standard. Every dollar one makes today is worth less tomorrow because of the Federal Reserve Bank's hyperinflation of the fiat (counterfeit) money supply.

The minimum wage in FL is $8.46. The cost of a cheap house where I live in Fort Lauderdale is @ $300,000 & that's in a bad neighborhood. It costs at least $400,000 for a house in a good neighborhood.

Since we no longer follow the constituion and have a debt based monetary system instead of being on a Gold Standard, I believe we should replace all current Federal social/welfare programs with a Universal Basic Income. For the same cost as all current Federal social/welfare programs, each U.S. citizen who is over 18 and who does not receive a government pension can receive a UBI of @ $1,700 per month, regardless if they have a job or not. A UBI which replaces all current Federal social/welfare programs can be implemented without raising taxes of touching military spending.
People can then use their UBI money in the free market on basic needs like housing, food, health insurance & higher education. Criteria can be established to receive consecutive years UBi like a requirement to have health insurance. The minimum wage can also be eliminated with a UBI.