Issuing a challenge to conservative's

a reply to: toysforadults

The facts are irrelevant. People believe what they want to believe.

a reply to: toysforadults

But an over 50% increase in the base standard in a decade if $15 was done right now is just way, way too much of a fluctuation. It would be a far more stable function of control by the government if they said $7.25 is it for now but no company that pays their employees within x% of $7.25 qualifies for certain tax incentives and deductions.

That would allow small business and individual entrepreneurial enterprises to continue to remain in business while encouraging larger companies to increase wages for their employees. At the same time allow for the modern equivalent of doormen and elevator operators (most people say burger flippers) to continue to be employed. Or look at my lemonade stand example posted elsewhere for small business considerations and the problems of needing expanded production or sales to remain competitive while maintaining a basic standard of living.

Believe or not back in my restaurant working days, I worked for owners that were CPA’s that diversified to keep that tax season level of income. They gave raises with consideration to income tax tables to maximize the value of the raise to increased taxes. It wasn’t just a quarter here and there and would explain it all out. They would also work closely with the waitresses to make sure they were making a good wage with tips and would do some voodoo with their hourly rates and raises to make it work out well for them. We even talked about doing a sports bar with me getting a 1/3 just for running it without investing a penny. There was a falling out after it was clear that I was not going to marry into the family and a breakup happened that had a tangential connection to me. But all that is neither here nor there.

Aggressive price controls, which the doubling of minimum wage this soon would be, should be viewed as an aggressive attack on the economy. No different that dictating a strict price control over all energy/petroleum without a board to appeal to changing pricing. It is a power grab, plain and simple and you don’t have to be overly conservative to see it.

originally posted by: dfnj2015
a reply to: toysforadults

The facts are irrelevant. People believe what they want to believe.

You got that right....

originally posted by: dfnj2015
a reply to: toysforadults

The facts are irrelevant. People believe what they want to believe.

You speak from experience...

The only thing this living wage crap is going to accomplish is pushing the replacement of human workers with robots faster.

With a robot workforce.

Don't have to worry about being forced to pay for employees social security.

Don't have worry about paying their medicare.

Don't have to worry about workmans comp or unemployment insurance.

Don't have to worry about holiday pay.

Don't have to worry about vaction pay.

Careful of what you wish for.

You just might get it.

Something certainly has to change, people are being priced out of America, let alone priced out of their cities.

However, I'm not sure that raising the minimum wage is the answer. Not for any of the reasons that others have given though.

LSU2018, you make a great point that markups are insane and unfair. But...I don't see companies ever changing that. So, given that companies aren't going to LOWER what they charge (the opposite in fact), what should the solution be?

I also understand when people say that it's just a ton of high school and college kids doing these jobs and they don't need to make that much. Except...it ISN'T just HS and college kids. There are a LOT of adults, with families, forced to work minimum wage jobs.

It most definitely isn't as simple as "just get a better job". In a lot of places, better jobs don't exist. And even if they did, how would you suggest people get one, if they have no experience or training? Training costs money, something that someone on minimum wage doesn't have much of to begin with.

Job requirements are ridiculous nowadays. I was recently helping a coworker look for a new job (we work in IT). He was looking at a JUNIOR system administrator position, it states right in the job description that it's an entry level position. However, in job requirements (not preferred, actual requirements), it says a minimum of 3 years experience building and maintaining Linux servers. Building Linux servers for 3 years is a requirement for an entry level job now? That makes absolutely zero sense. Needless to say, it's nigh on impossible for someone making 7.25 an hour to pay for the years of training necessary to be able to get that entry level job. Yes, you can learn a lot of it online, but if you barely have money for rent and food, you don't have money for a computer, let alone paying for the certifications to prove that you're capable of doing the work. Companies need to get their act together and get realistic about expectations. Everyone here always says "millenials want everything just handed to them", and in some cases that's true, but if you really think about that job description, it isn't just millenials that want it all. CEOs of companies (the vast majority of which aren't millenials) seem to want everything, while having to pay as little as possible too. Millenials are NOT the only problem with the system/the country.

I think this is where UBI comes in. A ton of minimum wage jobs are just going to disappear in the next decade anyway. AI is going to be taking orders, cooking, and serving your food at fast food places in the very near future. I don't necessarily like that, but it's going to happen, it's just the evolution of business.

Now, all of those people struggling on minimum wage won't even have the minimum wage to support them. What do we/they do about that?

Andrew Yang has a great idea, I think. www.yang2020.com... (not a plug, I seriously doubt I'm voting for him due to other policies he has, but I really like his UBI idea, and he's done the math and thought it through, just look at the FAQs).

UBI is going to be a requirement soon, the more that AI overtakes our businesses. Let's prepare for it instead of denying that we need a solution for the next decade, only to be hit with an "oh crap" moment.

That would solve the MW crisis, and help a ton of lower class folks get back on their feet. Imagine if someone who's motivated to get the training to better themselves suddenly had an extra grand a month to pay for that training? Not in poverty for very long.
ETA: which would lead to a better job, better pay, and being able to put more money back into our economy, which just makes the economy better.

a reply to: toysforadults

While I don't agree with all of your political stances, when it comes to economics I think you hit the nail on the head pretty much every time. It's telling no one can refute your argument with actual data.

originally posted by: neo96
The only thing this living wage crap is going to accomplish is pushing the replacement of human workers with robots faster.

With a robot workforce.

Don't have to worry about being forced to pay for employees social security.

Don't have worry about paying their medicare.

Don't have to worry about workmans comp or unemployment insurance.

Don't have to worry about holiday pay.

Don't have to worry about vaction pay.

Careful of what you wish for.

You just might get it.

I absolutely know that we disagree on this...but, why would robot workers be a bad thing? I'd so much rather have a robot do my job. It isn't even a laziness thing, I'd just have more time to train for triathlons, practice guitar, do things I'm actually passionate about.

Robots are going to take over pretty much all jobs in a relatively short amount of time...might as well plan for it instead of deny it and end up sending the US into crisis mode.

UBI is the future.

originally posted by: dfnj2015
a reply to: toysforadults

The facts are irrelevant. People believe what they want to believe.

You didn't provide a source. But don't worry, I bet the OP won't call you out for not posting sources in his thread because it's his thread and you agree with him.

a reply to: neo96

Who knew that neo could present such a good argument for UBI?

It doesn't matter how many robots McDonald's employs if no one can even afford a Big Mac.

originally posted by: Xcalibur254
a reply to: neo96

Who knew that neo could present such a good argument for UBI?

It doesn't matter how many robots McDonald's employs if no one can even afford a Big Mac.

Right? I was impressed.

a reply to: Xcalibur254

Where the EFF you going to get the money for it ?

Tax the GD robots?

This snip is so predictable.

originally posted by: neo96
a reply to: Xcalibur254

Where the EFF you going to get the money for it ?

Tax the GD robots?

This snip is so predictable.

The GD robots don't need salaries. Lot of extra money right there.

originally posted by: underwerks
a reply to: toysforadults

While I don't agree with all of your political stances, when it comes to economics I think you hit the nail on the head pretty much every time. It's telling no one can refute your argument with actual data.

It should be easy

1937, no minimum wage

1938 minimum wage

Hmmmmmmmmmmmm

a reply to: narrator

Try again.

Business owners will be too busy paying off the loans to modernize

So WHERE?

a reply to: toysforadults

Though I don't understand your argument, or what argument you want conservatives to make, we should point out that there are developed countries such as Norway, Sweden, Finland, and Iceland that do not have minimum wages at all and they are doing just fine. Dems often point to these countries as models to be admired and emulated. I suppose they might recoil in horror to know that they do not have minimum wages.

The problem with comparing then and now isn’t as easy as saying “it worked then, it will work now”. Federal Reserve Act of 1913 removed government printing of money and placed it under a private entity. Nixon scrapped the gold backed dollar when he was in office. The fact of the matter is, 1913 broke a working system. Coinage was worth its actual weight. Add in unions and prices of things go up to meet their salary. Now if you factor in a universal minimum wage of $15/hour, you effectively have to raise the prices of everything to offset the profit loss. Back to square one. Fix the money and place our currency back under the governments control. Limited resources, limited printing. The value of the dollar goes back up.

a reply to: narrator

I don't know what the solution would be unless some kind of law were to be put in place that limits the percentage you can mark something up. I wish I did know, though. If we could find a way to get prices back down, making minimum wage would allow an entry level worker more purchasing power.

As for your friend looking for an IT job, the company I work for is looking to stock our IT department with 20 IT people. We're currently sitting at 5. I don't think the qualifications are strict, and I'm pretty sure they start out at $20 to $25 an hour. Our main tech was making $44 an hour until he swerved around a car to beat a red light and laid his motorcycle down and slid head first into a car, with his head taking the impact of his bike plus speed. When the surgeons put his skull back together and reattached his nasal cavity, he was almost permanently blind. So he's gone, along with the work of about 10 men, which is what he amounted to.

Add in the matter of wanting to tax top earners 70% and they raise prices for that too. Those taxes are effectively paid for the middle class in retail prices. This is all simple economics. Business owners are already taxed across the board upwards to 60%. Payroll taxes, inventory taxes, capital gains taxes, Medicare, social security, workers comp, local tax, state tax then federal. I’m sure there are more.

originally posted by: LSU2018
a reply to: narrator

I don't know what the solution would be unless some kind of law were to be put in place that limits the percentage you can mark something up. I wish I did know, though. If we could find a way to get prices back down, making minimum wage would allow an entry level worker more purchasing power.

As for your friend looking for an IT job, the company I work for is looking to stock our IT department with 20 IT people. We're currently sitting at 5. I don't think the qualifications are strict, and I'm pretty sure they start out at $20 to $25 an hour. Our main tech was making $44 an hour until he swerved around a car to beat a red light and laid his motorcycle down and slid head first into a car, with his head taking the impact of his bike plus speed. When the surgeons put his skull back together and reattached his nasal cavity, he was almost permanently blind. So he's gone, along with the work of about 10 men, which is what he amounted to.

I agree 100%, there needs to be some sort of restriction to how much a company can charge for something simple like a big mac. I have no idea what that would look like though.

Oil if I remember correctly, right? Thanks, I'll have him reach out to you if he's interested, he's actually on here too.