Trans Activism and Your Red Line

originally posted by: Boadicea

originally posted by: drussell41
a reply to: Boadicea

3. Attempts to destroy those who disagree.

Definitely -- thank you! This does go to the heart of our rights to free speech, and our rights to peaceably assemble/protest, and our rights to freedom of association.

Some behaviors/reactions point more to things like narcissistic rage and mental illness than any kind of mature, adult response.

Another excellent point, and one that really needs to be addressed for their own sake. It's a main reason that I worry about what will happen when reality smacks them upside the head -- and it will. The more encouragement and "confirmation" they receive for their delusions, the more difficult it will be when they must come to terms with the truth. We are not doing them any favors. Just prolonging (and worsening?) the inevitable.

Yes. It is a question of free speech and other rights. However, I think it may actually be more than that: an attempt at Orwellian thoughtcrime. I see cases where I think that is exactly what is being implemented.

I fear for them too. I think some very ugly things might happen.

a reply to: drussell41

Yes. It is a question of free speech and other rights. However, I think it may actually be more than that: an attempt at Orwellian thoughtcrime. I see cases where I think that is exactly what is being implemented.

I agree... but that's why the 1st amendment rights are so very important to uphold and maintain. The two are inextricably linked.

We can add informed medical consent here too. When necessary and appropriate information and research is shut down or withheld, there is no such thing as "informed" consent. Not for adults seeking treatment, and not for parents of children seeking treatment. At some point, such treatment becomes a literal assault on the person under the guise of "medicine."

a reply to: Boadicea

Yes, it does (become an assault without fully informed consent).

And here I'd thought I'd already lost all the respect I could lose for physicians....

a reply to: Boadicea

My concern with it is much like yours in that it puts natal females at risk when we allow men who identify as women into safe spaces for women , and also could potentially infringe upon the rights of natal women.
It also has the potential to cause harm , as in with trans males participating in natal female sports when there is a clear and factual biological advantage of males over females with physical sports


I also think much like race , many people could potentially use this as a way to distort scientific fact

much like the fallacy of race , racists used scientific evidence to portray different ethnic groups as subhuman
until Ashley montagu was asked to assist in creating the UNESCO statements on race and racial theory and then authored the Fallacy of Race

When we allow activists to distort scientific biological facts we can get ourselves into hot water as has happened with race

For example saying there exists a female penis, gender is fluid and not set , males can have periods too etc!

this is intellectually dishonest and could be extremely confusing for children , when they read a biology book and go home
to their parents (who are liberal ) who then tell them that the book is wrong , because there are more than two genders !


I live in Glasgow , Scotland a very liberal city and country, I see trans males all the time and there is a large LGBTQ community in Glasgow so seeing trans males in public is a common occurence

the population of Scotland is like 5.5 million compared to the huge population of the US .

In my opinion let them do as they want , but when you start trying to change scientific fact to the benefit of a few to the detriment of the whole then there is a problem.

I am an egalitarian and I think that trans activism is damaging to the plight of natal females because of the whole self identification thing for the reasons of public safety and the safety of at risk women!

I just think that natal women have it bad enough as it is without having to play second fiddle to another minority group
a natal female is raped every 95 seconds in the west, I cant say the same for trans males to female .

So once we sort that problem out for the natal women of our species, then sure we can deal with the "identity" or what these men perceive themselves to be on a purely subjective level.

If all it takes now is to think you feel like a woman , what does that say for real women ?

I cant help but feel that the trans activist movement has been co opted and is being used to circumvent woman's rights
I hope I am wrong!

originally posted by: aliensanonymous My other Red Line is when people can not just accept it is a weird and wonderful world and move on..........................[

A weird and wonderful world that allows men pretending to be women who are criminals put the lives of natal women at risk when they are sentenced to prison!

As weird and wonderful as it may be there is no need to make it any more violent or painful for anyone !

as for the criminal justice system , we should just open trans prisons , it doesnt matter if be separate them because they are criminals , we all ready separate male from female , so why not separate trans into their own wing
that mystical third gender option , which wouldnt make any scientific sense could be utilised to resolve the prison issue.

Because putting trans males to females into an all male prison , you know full well they will be raped or abused.

originally posted by: theatreboy
So, an alcoholic is born that way. Trans people are born that. One we accept, and one we condemn....where is the difference?

Do we encourage alcoholics to drink more alcohol because there is a belief that they were born that way?

Are there even different red lines?
The OP is literally perfect and includes almost all red lines that I have [and have ranted about many times].
But I want to strengthen OPs argument by repeating the obvious common sense lines, that should not become law as they actually harm others.

1. Totally shouldn't self ID. If I see the 'Maam' guy in my changing room, I'll call security. Sorry, a couple of socks in a jumper and pink trainers doesn't make a woman. I as an actual petite woman [who wouldn't be able to save herself against such strength and broad shoulders] should not get into trouble misgendering for safety's sake.

Solution: Real trans women could have an official ID card once their male penises are cut off, and I should be able to demand to see it at any time. Or, if that's too intrusive, I have been for 3rd gender since the get go.

2. Spreading transgenderism as something 'normal' in schools. A hell of a lot of a lot of Autistic kids [I am on the specrum and talk from experience] will suffer mentally. I remember my life being all fine until I learned about lesbianism. A normal person will not have a problem but I literally had weeks of panic attacks, with sweating, racing pulse and sleepless night thinking I might be a lesbian. I told my mum and she laughed and said that it didn't matter to her and I shouldn't worry. But the thing is I did. My parents were the least judgemental and I have absolutely nothing against lesbians but I was afraid, like shhit that I would be one. Hard to explain but absolutely true. The mental anguish this caused me was crazy. Autists love definite things, man or woman, yes or no, teaching young kids not even their gender is definite could lead to some serious problems.

Solution: Teach kids that 99.5% of people are binary and then tell them that a few can have other ideas due to trauma or mental illness. Tell kids that the world is still safe and that they are 99.5% the gender they are now.
Please think of kids that are wired differently. We do need some respect too or do the lefties not give a damn about us?


3. Ururping women. Women never had much rights anyway, not as long as there are males around. There are many decent guys but there are also macho men who just pretend women are equal humans [not equal as in physical, but certainly mentally]. The one thing women had for sure though was that we are women. We have periods, we think differently, our brains are wired differently from males and we are capable of being pregnant.

We could after a lot of trouble compete in sport against ourselves, which was fair. However now males are taking our last bastions of our 'stuff' and make it theirs by dressing up as women or pretending they are women inside.
No, you are not. You are a male that thinks you feel like a woman but what do you measure it against?
You cannot know how a woman thinks because you are a male. You can appropriate, guess or copy, but you will never know. Just like I will never know what it is like to be a cat. I can only assume.

Solution: 3rd gender. You are not a female inside, you are a male who believes you are. Biological women should not be overshadowed by you. How dare you steal our identity and make it yours! Gender appropriation. Cheeky sods.

Yeah that, mostly.

a reply to: Boadicea

Just in response to this good men taking action , when the # are the rest of the world going to openly condemn India and all the #ty creepy wee #s who are into rape gangs and openly post rape threats on FB.
When are we going to openly condemn the treatment of women by specific religions. I just cant stomach that #

I was tagged by my friend in a post where a woman had posted about Kashmir and the innocent civilians , men women and children who were killed by the military.

Then the woman received like 30 rape threats publicly on FB.

I posted it saying this kind of behaviour would never happen in the west , because it would be dealt with immediately by the police or someone would stand up and call them out or organise to have them dealt with

I thought if any of my friends posted a rape threat to a woman , Id beat the living # out of them !
What men allow their sons, or their friends to openly post rape threats on public social media channels .
Who are these scum bags , why haven't we found them and caved their faces in!

I admit I am not a violent person , but to see someone else threaten or abuse someone like that , it makes me want to brutally murder that person and barbarian like bloodlust BY KROM I SHALL DESTROY THEM

I find it morally abhorrent and disgusting.

a reply to: Hecate666

I think that the third gender option is a bad idea because it flies in the face of biological facts!
unless you are born with a sexual birth defect such as ovotesticular disorder of sex development or True hermaphroditism
then you are either male or female.

and yes I agree I think certain aspects of the activism of trans movement appear to undermine womens rights
I dont want that to be true but something feels off about it.

what also needs to be looked at is the prevalence of the idea that trans people are out to get us
when in reality there are very few trans people who make themselves publicly known and just want to keep themselves to themselves like most people do .
The media then exacerbates or conflates the issues of trans humans e.g. "trans male to female raping in womens prisons" the number of trans male to females that are criminals and rape aren't exactly exploding in number or are the majority rather than minority.

what we cant have also is that any discussion of the issue itself is normally met with the branding of transphobic !

like I can be called transphobic for not being attracted to a trans male to female if I was asked if I was attracted to them as a male.
Yet I cant be called homophobic or heterophobic for saying I don't want to sleep with another natal male or female.

a reply to: Boadicea

I think the problem most trans are going to run into is that when most people are relationship shopping it is backed by the biological imperative to breed. Whether we are consciously thinking that way or not, for most of us that's what drives us to relationships with the opposite sex -- our instincts are looking to pass on our genes.

That makes it very hard for a trans to get into that kind of relationship with someone because that person has to override that instinct by getting into a relationship knowing they have no chance of that ever happening. Maybe you can start on a passing attraction, but to go long-term you know going in that there is no chance of your genes going on there. There are plenty of relationships that break up when one partner discovers infertility as it is.

Of course, instead of acknowledging that hurdle, trans would prefer to call people who aren't willing to go there transphobic.

originally posted by: drussell41
a reply to: Boadicea

Yes, it does (become an assault without fully informed consent).

And here I'd thought I'd already lost all the respect I could lose for physicians....

I know that feeling. I didn't have much faith in most doctors before this nonsense started, and too many have only proven themselves to be worse than I ever imagined...

a reply to: sapien82

This is the confusion of sex with gender though.

We are constantly told now that biological sex does not define gender which is a mental construct, not physical (sex). You are correct in saying there are no third sexes, not even intersex individuals who have a misformed endocrine system due to abnormalities at some stage of development. But a third gender -- male, female, and the rest of y'all (folks who don't want to be male or female) -- would be for those who cannot accept they are one or the other for whatever reason.

Some things in society would still be determined by physical sex -- like sports. And for my purposes, truly competitive sport would be with the body you were born with no matter what your gender happened to be, and if you decided to alter your given body to try to make it match your gender, then you would disqualify yourself for competitive sport although I'm sure you could compete in the local rec league where they have co-ed divisions.

a reply to: ketsuko

this is something I have always thought about , what do evolutionary biologists make of trans identity ,
is there a evolutionary role

AN evolutionary biologist dissects gender studies

it doesnt appear clear cut , but from what I cant take from it that it is thought that homosexuality and trans sexuality are determined before birth in the fetal development stage.
It appears that the evolutionary advantage is assistance of the community to raise children in ancestoral societies , so to me this would mean that its an altruistic nature of our gene pool , for whatever reason a small percentage of humans are born with altruistic genes
as humans primary function is to pass on genetic material and can only do so by forming a breeding pair.
Therefore if you are in a same sex marriage or relationship or in a relationship where no one can produce offspring then you have altruistic genes!

however this would be contradictory to the role of genetic material in humans, since the primary function is to pass on genetic material to ensure the survival of the species , then why do they exist at all ?
an alternative would be that its a population control mechanism as a result of biofeedback from a community , food scarcity , resource scarcity , when these limits are unconsciously reached by a group , their biofeedback is processed by the DNA and it tells the next generation of offspring , that 5% must be trans and 10% must be gay , to ensure that the group dont overpopulate and produce more offspring than the environment can handle!

Im now thinking, that we humans will discover this bio field , and find out that is the reason why we have homosexual and transsexual humans
because it limits our populations !
as we evolve we also advance technologically , so in theory the number of humans will who are homosexual or trans will increase over time as we are able to increase the number of people we can support with advancing food technology!

maybe we will reach the upper limit suggested by the earth from its biofield feedback to our DNA.

a reply to: sapien82

I also think much like race , many people could potentially use this as a way to distort scientific fact

This is a very good point -- thank you!

Especially because scientific fact is also medical fact... or fiction. It isn't inappropriate to compare it to SciFi/Fantasy, but more like MedFi/Fantasy. Does that make sense?

Our anatomy and physiology is medical and scientific fact. Nothing changes that fundamental reality -- not drugs, not surgery, not wishing, not saying it's so. Denying biological reality can and will lead to very dangerous medical nightmares.

a reply to: sapien82

I'm not sure about his conclusions on homosexuality. If he were right about hormonal influences being the factor so early on, one would think twin studies would show a higher incidence of commonality in both twins being gay than they do since both twins would be exposed to identical hormonal influences in the womb and have identical genes, but in those studies, the incidence of both identical twins turning out to be both gay or both lesbian is less than 20% which indicates that it is far more complex than simply what one encounters in the womb.

a reply to: Hecate666

Thank you for bringing autism to the discussion! I have seen the connection made, especially with the disproportionate increase in girls identifying as trans. Many, perhaps even most, are on the autism spectrum. I would think the autism should be prioritized over the gender dysphoria, or at least weighted heavily in diagnosing and treating.

Like other mental/emotional conditions, such as PTSD, most transgender persons report other issues that preceded or at least accompany the gender dysphoria.

a reply to: Boadicea

Do your research on girls with Aspergers and you will discover that they act more like little boys than most little girls. So it's not surprising that they get caught up in this to their detriment.

a reply to: ketsuko

Yes I agree, I was a little turned off by his thoughts on homosexuality.

There clearly needs to be more research into this!

a reply to: Boadicea

I think humans can only really change their sex once we have mastered cloning and DNA manipulation.

you simply take your own DNA and make a clone of your DNA but make it female , so like rebirthing !

I should patent this now !

Re-birth , be reborn the sex you always were

originally posted by: sapien82
a reply to: Hecate666
what also needs to be looked at is the prevalence of the idea that trans people are out to get us
when in reality there are very few trans people who make themselves publicly known and just want to keep themselves to themselves like most people do .

Honestly, pro-trans people need to stop thinking that we all believe "trans are out to get us!" Seriously, that's not real. I live in what other people call flyover country where Trump won by 20+ points and it's not an issue.

The issue is if/when we see a dude who is obviously a dude go into the lady's room.

The concern is not that people who believe they are trans will exploit it.

The concern IS that perfectly heterosexual perverts (aka not trans people) will exploit society's leniency to allow them into locker rooms and showers so they can be voyeurs or worse.