Trans Activism and Your Red Line

a reply to: AProudLefty

When you can lose your job for uttering the wrong pronoun, yes, in a way someone is.

a reply to: Vroomfondel

If you repeatedly refuse to call them by their pronouns or names, you lose the job. If you mess up at first, nothing will happen to you.

a reply to: AProudLefty

There is no hypocrisy, with the possible exception of your saying "most" do not proselytize their choices. Where did that come from and can you prove it?

Here is YOUR hypocrisy: how do you know they are atheist, gay, or vegan if they don't tell you? Only one is readily observable, provided they engage in PDA's. So - if you know how most of them act, you must know who they are, which means they told you. Ergo, your statement is, not to put too fine a point on it, crap.

a reply to: Vroomfondel

So are you telling me that the entire communities are telling us who they are?

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: Boadicea

In all honesty, third wave feminists haven't made themselves popular with many men.

Well, I'm still learning about third wave feminism... I just learned the difference between RadFem and Lib Fem and that's only because I started reading about the TERF stuff!

There is a lot of hostility aimed at men in culture these days. You reap what you sow in a sense.

There's a lot of hostility aimed at everyone these days... and since no group of anyone can claim perfection, that's not an excuse. Women as a whole are no more or less "guilty" than men as a whole.

Women target and denigrate men...

Some women target and denigrate some men, just like some men target and denigrate women.

...and now these trans-activists are coming for women, and you want men to be all supportive and defend women after we've run them down for so long?

I want and expect good men to do the right thing. Why would any man allow the actions of some women to keep him from protecting and preserving the rights of the women he knows and loves? What kind of logic is that? Or honor? Or integrity? Any man that would let women be put in danger because some women said mean things isn't much of a man.

Especially when men know damn well that there are some real creeps and perverts and bullies among them?

How many of them see us getting the same crap they got I wonder? How many of them might have cared if women had made an effort to be a bit less nasty to men?

Because women never take crap from men? Are we children or mature thinking adults?

When "men" as a whole are perfect and no longer victimize women or anyone, they can jump on their high horse. At this point, we live in an imperfect world with imperfect people and none of us are perfect, and there is no justification or virtue in allowing all to suffer because some aren't nice.

If they don't want to stand up, okay. They obviously don't have to. But it says everything about them, not women. There are plenty of good women out there who treat men very well. And there are plenty of good men out there who aren't pouting in the corner and blaming all women for the faults of the few.

originally posted by: Anathros
I believe it's a mental illness..period. My line was drawn from the beginning but they crossed the line when they started poisoning the minds --

And bodies!!!

-- of children. Those parents making their own children believe that they were born the wrong sex should be charged with abuse. It's a case of mentally unstable parents inflicting enough trauma to guarantee their kids turn out just as crazy.

I'm with you, but we have to remember it's not all the parents. There are many parents who are trying to fight this, some alone and many joining together. One group I know of is 4thWaveNow.

But I think you're right about many parents being too quick to jump on the transgender bandwagon for their kid, either because they can't think it through for themselves, or because -- as you stated -- they have their own mental/emotional issues. I've only watched a few minutes of the show with "Jazz," (I don't know if you're familiar with it), but I've read quite a bit about it, and there's a definite sense that the mother has been pushing Jazz into this his entire life. It's child abuse and it's heartbreaking... especially when multiplied by thousands.

The whole issue is bull# but we need to figure something out where the children are concerned. Just my .02

The kids worry me the most as they have the most to lose and the least power. I do think the kids need to be addressed first, and the drugs taken out of the picture until they are old enough and mature enough to make their own decisions.

a reply to: jadedANDcynical

Thanks, J&C -- much appreciated! I haven't seen that before, but I'm going to finish reading it now.

It might be interesting to look in to the AAP's policy statement, who authored it, and any associations they may have.

Definitely! I'm not surprised by this, but I do want to check it out further.

Thank you

originally posted by: ABNARTY
Now I gotta' look up "autogynephiles".

I really can't keep up with this stuff.

My apologies... I should have explained better.

An autogynephile is a heterosexual man identifying as a woman, who claims gender "euphoria" rather than "dysphoria," and is sexually aroused by acting and being viewed and treated as a woman. He doesn't believe he is really a woman or has a woman's brain, he just really really likes it!.

But these autogynephile trans "women" are known to retain and display the same patterns and rates of violence as men in general; narcissism and narcissistic rage (violence) are also associated with autogynephiles at a much higher rate than homosexual trans women, and the population in general.

Well, here's a well known (in UK and Australia at least) feminist, Germaine Greer, on trans.

Essentially her contention is that a man who has been gender reassigned as a woman is not a woman. Such a simple opinion has got her in all sorts of problems, including being de-platformed at universities.

originally posted by: riiver
a reply to: jadedANDcynical

I don't have time to say much (for which some of you are probably glad, lol) but I think you accidentally highlighted another issue that's ignored for the most part. That is, that "transgender" and "transvestite" are becoming increasingly conflated.

Excellent point to make! You're right.

And self-ID does not distinguish between the two at all either.

a reply to: paraphi

My red lines are in sport e.g. ex-men winning against women.

I'm ok with this as long as they are the same weight as everyone else.

a reply to: Boadicea

So long as what they need to feel free doesn't interfere with what I need to feel free than I don't care what they are doing.

So far noting they have done has interfered with my freedom. And I don't imagine that they ever will.

originally posted by: scraedtosleep
a reply to: Boadicea

So long as what they need to feel free doesn't interfere with what I need to feel free than I don't care what they are doing.

Okay... do you care if others are being harmed? Or is it just all about you?

So far noting they have done has interfered with my freedom. And I don't imagine that they ever will.

For your sake, I hope not... but others aren't so lucky.

For anyone interested in learning more about autogynephilia, there is a recent post at Reddit by an autogynephile, hoping to help other autogynephiles suffering. It is very informative, and obviously not written by a "hater."

Rant: My Experience with r/asktransgender

I have autogynephilia. It's roots stretch back to when I was about 5 years old. I always assumed I was separate from TiMs - that they were men born into the wrong body - not a difficult concept to accept. Now, in my 30s, I am learning that I meet the definition of transgender, and that trans people are largely motivated to transition due to AGP. It has been difficult for me to deal with this as it hits at the foundations of my self-identity.

I was very impressed by his ability for introspection and self-examination...

a reply to: Boadicea

Okay... do you care if others are being harmed? Or is it just all about you?

It has yet to be proven to me that they are doing anymore harm than the average person does.

a reply to: scraedtosleep

Ahhhhhh... gotcha.

So, in other words, you do know that harm is being done, and you are okay with that. As long as it's not you.

Gotcha. Loud and clear.

a reply to: Boadicea

Your red lines are my red lines. I would like to add:

3. Attempts to destroy those who disagree.

Some behaviors/reactions point more to things like narcissistic rage and mental illness than any kind of mature, adult response.

Thanks for the great write-up. It has already harmed women, and I think it may grow only worse.

originally posted by: drussell41
a reply to: Boadicea

3. Attempts to destroy those who disagree.

Definitely -- thank you! This does go to the heart of our rights to free speech, and our rights to peaceably assemble/protest, and our rights to freedom of association.

Some behaviors/reactions point more to things like narcissistic rage and mental illness than any kind of mature, adult response.

Another excellent point, and one that really needs to be addressed for their own sake. It's a main reason that I worry about what will happen when reality smacks them upside the head -- and it will. The more encouragement and "confirmation" they receive for their delusions, the more difficult it will be when they must come to terms with the truth. We are not doing them any favors. Just prolonging (and worsening?) the inevitable.

On the the redline:


Sports:

I started thinking about sports and transgender. There are sports where woman and men can compete head to head.

Racing, golf, volleyball, tennis, base ball...and maybe a few others. Where they should not compete would be boxing, MMA, track and field...and a few others.

So, there are sports where being transgender really would not matter. however,the more physical and physically damaging sports probably should have some boundaries.

I however am not saying the the general public is ready for any level of integrated sports just saying that there are some sports where gender does not matter.


On a side note: my wife asked me a good question. She said, if a transgender came up to me in a bar (man turned female in this case) and openly told me that they were trans (been through surgery and hormone treatments) would I consider a relationship with them? I told her that my psychological make up would make it difficult for me to pursue that relationship because it was a man that is now a female. This is something that no amount of talk or explaining will make me change. However, I am willing to say that there is a chance that the relationship COULD happen. In the end, you love who you love.

For those that have trouble with my initial answer, think of my initial answer as, "No, I do not prefer redheads and therefore I would not pursue a relationship with a red headed female." I don't hate red heads. I just don't prefer them to blondes or brunettes. I don't hate trans people. I just would not pursue an intimate relationship with a trans person. And yes, it is a psychological make up for both answers. It doesn't make me phobic or any other colorful words that folks use when someone isn't 100% accepting in all ways now-a-days.

originally posted by: wdkirk
On the the redline:


Sports:

I started thinking about sports and transgender. There are sports where woman and men can compete head to head.

Racing, golf, volleyball, tennis, base ball...and maybe a few others. Where they should not compete would be boxing, MMA, track and field...and a few others.

Great point -- and a good example of where we can find middle ground. Those sports and competitions which can be integrated could be integrated, segregating only those sports and competitions in which natal men have a marked physiological advantage. A third transgender or unrestricted league could be established to serve transgenders exclusively or open to anyone/everyone will to compete on that level.

On a side note: my wife asked me a good question. She said, if a transgender came up to me in a bar (man turned female in this case) and openly told me that they were trans (been through surgery and hormone treatments) would I consider a relationship with them? I told her that my psychological make up would make it difficult for me to pursue that relationship because it was a man that is now a female. This is something that no amount of talk or explaining will make me change. However, I am willing to say that there is a chance that the relationship COULD happen. In the end, you love who you love.

My husband and I have talked about this also, and his answer was pretty much the same as yours.

It's an odd question for me to answer. I am obviously heterosexual, but I don't feel like I'm attracted to "men" in general... just that those I have been attracted to were men. I was never the dating type. I didn't go on dates unless I was already attracted to that person (and that was rare! I only had one serious boyfriend before my husband.). If I knew it wasn't going anywhere, I didn't want to mislead the guy. I hated having to reject guys. So if a trans person hit on me, I think it would all depend on whether I was already attracted to them or not. Just because that's how I am.