Should we reform religion so we can get rid of Irational and hysterical beliefs completly?

a reply to: metal5643

I think we can all agree that the most valuable thing a person should seek in life is meaning and not purpose , it is clear that traditional religion indeed gives the average individual a sense of personal meaning which allows people to live a fulfilled and happy life. However believing in a purpose can be dangerous because it suggest that there is an objective reason for our existence or why we live , for religious people this type of thinking can lead to Fundamentalism and for Atheists it usually leads to Nihilism.Text

How do you know for sure that what you propose is better or even as good as what you want replaced? What if I think the most valuable meaning of life is immortality after death? What if that is the real purpose of life? You want to believe that feel good for a brief period is better than everlasting life?

What if you are wrong and fundamentalism is right?

a reply to: metal5643

You'll have to go a bit deeper, and more universal, before you'll have a chance at the results you're looking to achieve.

Its easy to scapegoat a single social group, but if we see the same core behavior elsewhere.. gotta consider its part of something more widespread rather than a pet group we might personally dislike.

a reply to: whereislogic

That's quite the essay with many quotes. I misspoke when I said hell is mostly in the NT. It is developed in the prophets and writings. I still maintain it is not in the first five books which might indicate a spiritual plane or a heaven but not really a hell, nor a concept of immortal soul which can exist separate from the body.

The quote you left from the Catholic Catechism, "“The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, ‘eternal fire.’ The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God.”​—Catechism of the Catholic Church, 1994 edition, page 270. ", pretty much sums up what I believed when I finished Sunday school.

However, after doing my own reading, now I believe in judgement resulting in heaven or death in the lake of fire - no eternal torment.

I ignored ancient religion because no one I've ever met practices those any longer. Even though popular thought might derive from pagan sources, I left that out.

The rich man and Lazarus are in Paradise, is this heaven and hell? And where Jesus went after he died is called hell. I really haven't fit these into my thinking yet. Maybe after that video.

originally posted by: toms54
a reply to: whereislogic

The rich man and Lazarus are in Paradise, is this heaven and hell?

I don't think "Paradise" is mentioned in the symbolic illustration (not literal people, not literally dying) about the rich man and Lazarus (Luke 16:19-31). The word translated "paradise" means "a beautiful park, or a parklike garden". The first such place was Eden. When speaking to one of the criminals next to him on the torture stake, Jesus indicated that the earth would become a paradise.

And where Jesus went after he died is called hell. I really haven't fit these into my thinking yet. Maybe after that video.

Acts 2:27 (NW)

27 because you will not leave me* [Or “my soul.”] in the Grave,* [Or “Hades,” that is, the common grave of mankind. See Glossary.] nor will you allow your loyal one to see corruption.

Perhaps I talked a bit too much and it was distracting, but in case you didn't notice, the word translated "hell" in some versions of the Bible there in the book of Acts basically means "the Grave". So Jesus went to "the Grave" after he died, which makes perfect sense. He was dead for 3 days after all before being resurrected by his God and Father. He didn't go to some mythological place of literal fiery torment presided over by the Devil. This video keeps it nice and short as well (it uses the same bible quotation from the book of Acts and it nicely sums up some things that I already mentioned as well as a few things I haven't mentioned yet):

originally posted by: whereislogic

originally posted by: toms54
a reply to: neutronflux

I don't really see much value looking for evidence of hell in the old testament. It is mostly a Christian belief. As far as I can tell, the idea of a soul that is separate from the physical body is completely absent from the first five books.

Yes. That is the only part of your comment that is true. The rest of what you wrote is your usual nonsense that has nothing at all to do with the quote. It does not demonstrate evidence of hell in the old testament or the idea of a soul that is separate from the physical body.

What is the origin of the myth?
...
In ancient Babylonian and Assyrian beliefs the “nether world . . . is pictured as a place full of horrors, and is presided over by gods and demons of great strength and fierceness.” (The Religion of Babylonia and Assyria, Boston, 1898, Morris Jastrow, Jr., p. 581)
...
The ancient Egyptians believed in the immortality of the soul, and they had their own concept of the afterworld. ...

The Indo-Iranian religions developed various beliefs on punishment after death. Concerning Hinduism, ... “There are innumerable descriptions of the 21 hells imagined by the Hindus. ...”

Jainism and Buddhism both have their versions of hell, where impenitent sinners are tormented. Zoroastrianism, founded in Iran, or Persia, also has a hell​—a cold, ill-smelling place where the souls of sinners are tormented.

Christendom’s doctrine of punishment in hell originated with the early Babylonians. Ancient Babylonian religious concepts and practices are found in religions worldwide.

“Egypt, Persia, and Greece felt the influence of the Babylonian religion . . . The strong admixture of Semitic elements both in early Greek mythology and in Grecian cults is now so generally admitted by scholars as to require no further comment. These Semitic elements are to a large extent more specifically Babylonian.”—The Religion of Babylonia and Assyria (Boston, 1898), M. Jastrow, Jr., pp. 699, 700.

Babylon the Great: The World Empire of False Religion

Talking about the origin of certain Pagan teachings, philosophies, myths, rituals, festivals and practices, there's an appropiate bible text to quote for which I had no place left before (I'm only thinking of it now anyway).

Deuteronomy 12:30

30 be careful not to be entrapped after they have been annihilated from before you. Do not ask about their gods, saying, ‘How were these nations accustomed to serve their gods? I too will do the same.’

Now this was a warning specifically to the Israelites not to adopt the false religious teachings, philosophies, myths, rituals, festivals and practices of those nations, which they also failed to avoid. The consequence for them is discussed in detail in the Scriptures. As it is discussed for "Babylon the Great" in the Scriptures quoted in the link at the end of my previous comment there (which is a playlist and the next video in that playlist goes into detail about Deuteronomy 12:30 at 16:39 in the video).

This video contains a summary of one part of the consequence I spoke about now:

Religion is a Snare and a Racket

a reply to: whereislogic

"And Jesus said to him: Amen I say to thee, this day thou shalt be with me in paradise."

It's pretty clear you understand this verse differently than I do. I see it as afterlife, you see it as the earth will become a beautiful garden.

I understand all the different ways hell is translated. Or at least I am aware of it enough not to quickly jump to conclusions. There are different views about what happened during Jesus's death. They are occasioned by verses like this:

1 Peter 4:6 King James Version (KJV)

6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

and others. I won't quote them here but instead leave links if you are interested: Wikipedia and Catechism of the Catholic Church.

Lastly, I watched your video and know that you see the rich man and Lazarus as just a symbolic illustration rather than an actual description of an afterlife. I take it that you don't believe in any kind of "limbo" where the dead await the resurrection. So what does all that amount to in terms of whether there exists such a thing as eternal torment in hell? You don't believe it?

a reply to: toms54
No, not as in physical torment. Cause the dead are "conscious of nothing at all" (Eccl. 9:5), so they can't feel literal pain.

When we die, we go to "the Grave" (Hades, Sheol; not an actual place in either the physical or spirit realm), and we cease to exist. Awaiting a resurrection (which means bringing someone back from the dead, making them alive again, God knows our DNA nucleotide for nucleotide, he can remake human beings exactly as they were with their memories intact, not that their memories are stored in the DNA but that was just some additional information, memories are stored in the connective pathways in the brain, which can also be remade by someone who knows what He's doing).

a reply to: whereislogic

I agree with you about this. I don't know much about your denomination but I agree with most of what you've presented here.

They should be put behind glass in a muesem, and be put on a PDF file script.

Amazing how much damage a pen and a paper can do.

a reply to: metal5643

You cant reform 4000 years old belief system and tradition.