Should we reform religion so we can get rid of Irational and hysterical beliefs completly?

a reply to: Lazarus Short

How can you know that
I don't believe in eternal torture either but I can not catagoricaly state it isn't true
How do you come up with that

Nobody needs two years to understand something

originally posted by: Raggedyman

originally posted by: narrator

originally posted by: Raggedyman
You know that the belief in nothing, atheism that is, brought humanity Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot just to name a few
One of the stupidest arguments ever

Hitler sent Jews and Gypsies to the gas chamber because they were sub humans or not evolved

And Christianity brought us the Crusades, etc etc etc. Religion as a whole has brought WAY more violence and murder upon humanity than Atheism has.

I can't stand this argument. First of all, it wasn't the "belief in nothing" that caused those folks to murder people. It was their belief that they were superior and didn't want to be challenged that led to the murder of millions of people.
However, the Crusades were, literally, religious wars. Scores of people murdered because of no reason other than...religion.

Religious folks need to retire this "atheism causes murder" argument. It's detrimental to your cause, and is so easily proven wrong.

Show me any instance of mass murder/genocide/etc committed by an atheist BECAUSE of the atheist's "religious" beliefs. Any instance.

Duh
Really
Is that right
I never knew


Show me where Jesus or any writing in the Christian scriptures teach war, killing or murder

Atheism causes murder, deaths blah blah because it has and does on a greater "scale" than Christianity has, most religions if not all

The crusades were land grabs and the control of the Silk Road

Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot were just mass murderers and atheists, that's a fact, slaughtered hundreds of millions

Weep in your cornflakes narrator, history proves me right

You think you have a leg to stand on, silly silly boy

You still haven't shown me how Mao, Pol Pot, and Stalin committed those atrocities BECAUSE they were atheists. Yes, they were atheists. and yes, they committed atrocities. That doesn't mean they killed people BECAUSE they aren't religious. Show me proof of that. Any proof at all that shows that any of those 3 killed people because of atheism.
You can't just say "it does because it has". That means nothing. Prove it.

You seriously think that Christian Scriptures don't call for war/genocide/etc?
-Samuel Book 1: Good tells King Saul to attack the Amalekites. "And utterly destroy all that they have, and do not spare them, But kill both man and woman, infant and nursing child, ox and sheep, camel and donkey." Saul fails to do that, and God takes away Saul's kingdom.
-Isaiah 19: "I will stir up Egyptian against Egyptian- Brother will fight against Brother, neighbor against neighbor, city against city, kingdom against kingdom".
-Zechariah 14:2: "I will gather all the nations to Jerusalem to fight against it; the city will be captured, the houses ransacked, and the women raped. Half of the city will go into exile, but the rest of the people will not be taken from the city."
-During the Crusades, the Popes declared Muslims to be Amalekites, and ordered Christians to destroy them.

I could go on for ages, but I don't have the time. If you truly believe that Christianity isn't a violent religion, you've been greatly deceived.

originally posted by: metal5643

originally posted by: schuyler
What you mean "We," paleface? Seriously. If you haven't noticed, religious adherents BELIEVE in their fantasies. You are not going to wave a wand and "reform" these religions. Can you imagine trying to change Islam? How about Christianity. I mean, which branch? How about the Mormons? Good luck.

True although perhaps reformation can start in schools , children can be educated from a young age not to misinterpret religious text.

Schools, for the most part in this country, are secular organizations and considered part of government. So you think it would be acceptable to "reform religion" in some way that is acceptable to you via the schools? I'm thinking a few parents might have some serious objections about that plan.

a reply to: narrator

Do you know the difference between Judaism and Christianity
Rhetorical question

www.catholiceducation.org...

No educate yourself

a reply to: narrator

Communism has proven to be the the greatest mass murder killing machine ever devised in history.

It is an atheistic belief. Connect the dots.

a reply to: metal5643

I don't see how you can alter existing religion. However, if you wish to start your own, there's certainly nothing stopping you. That's how Moses, Jesus, and Mohammed did it. Who knows? It might catch on.

There have been 2 threads on ATS lately that suggested the golden rule. Maybe you could start there.

a reply to: toms54

I think your expectations exceed the common standards

Connecting dots can be tricky for some when it conflicts with their beliefs

Tanks Tom

Raggedyman, it took two years because I was careful and studied every book, chapter and verse of the King James Version. It took two years because I wrote a book, as yet unpublished. Here are my conclusions, so that you will KNOW that I can know that:

1. There is no mention of Hell in God’s Creation of the Cosmos - therefore, Hell is uncreated by God or anyone else. See Genesis 1:1, Isaiah 65:17, Jeremiah 7:31, 19:5. John 1:3 explicitly states that God made all, and that no other person or agency made anything. The Bible contains many instances of “heaven and earth” paired together as a term…without “hell.”

2. In the first chapter of Genesis, it is stated six times that God saw that what He had made was good, excluding Hell as being possible, as the Creation could not have been wholly good had Hell been in existence. See Genesis 1:10,12,18,21,25,31.

3. The Creation is properly a hierarchy, not a dualistic Heaven versus Hell – with the Earth and humans as a contested prize, fought over by God and Satan. See Genesis 1:1, Job 1 & 2, John 1:3, Philippians 2:10, Revelation 5:13.

4. God made both good and evil, for the same Hand that planted the Tree of Life also planted the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. Therefore, Satan did not make or create evil. See Genesis 2:9, Isaiah 45:7, Lamentations 3:38, Amos 3:6.

5. The Bible makes no connection between Satan and Hell, so Satan is NOT the Prince of Hell. See Job 1:6-7, 2:1-2, Zechariah 3:1-2, Revelation 2:13, 12:9.

6. The prince of Tyre in Ezekiel 28 is not Satan, as it specifically refers to him as a man. See Ezekiel 26 - 28.

7. The Law God gave to Moses warned of death, but did not specify punishment in Hell, or warn of it. Punishments were delivered in the real world, and the most severe was simple death. See Genesis 2:17, Exodus through Deuteronomy, Romans 6:23.

8. All the consequences of human disobedience to God are worked out in the real, here-and-now world – not in Hell. This includes death, destruction, perishing, God’s wrath and His cursings. See Deuteronomy 28:15-68, 30:19, Ezekiel 32:32, Romans 13:4.

9. All people die, but none of them go to Eternal Conscious Torment – only to the grave or pit. See every instance of personal death in the Bible, with “hell” (if present) properly replaced with “sheol” or “hades,” as so often noted in the margin or center-column reference.

10. For the Hebrews, “sheol,” hidden, covered and unknown, was the state, condition or place of the dead. It was where the body returned to the dust and the spirit returned to God (Who gave it). See Genesis 3:19, Ecclesiastes 12:7.

11. Eternal Conscious Torment depends on the concept of the Immortality of the Soul, and that comes, not from the Bible, but from Greek philosophy, from Socrates and Plato.

12. Hell, by definition, opposes the Gospel (the Good News) because Hell can only be Bad News for those sent there – and thus, for most of living (and dead) humanity.

13. Hell violates God’s Law, specifically the Law of the Jubilee, which sets all those in servitude free. Those who die are freed from sin, as prophesied by the Law of the Jubilee. See Leviticus 25:8-13, Isaiah 1:18, Romans 6:7,16.

14. The idea of damnation of people to Hell is at least absurd, and possibly blasphemous, due to the presence of God’s Spirit of Life in each of us. See Genesis 1:26-27, 2:7,3:19, Ecclesiastes 12:7.

15. Hell, like Babylon, is confusion. Hell is hot, but it’s also cold as…Hell. Hell is bright with fire, but it is dark. Hell is separation from God, but Mary K Baxter depicts Jesus touring Hell, chiding the damned. To go to Hell, you must be dead, but to be in Eternal Conscious Torment, you must be alive, but you’re dead, and on and on… Fictional descriptions of Hell, especially as seen in the works of Dante and Baxter, are clearly fictional and un-Biblical.

16. God’s plan for the wicked is to destroy their wickedness, not to destroy them or send them to Hell. See Psalm 1:6, 7:9, Isaiah 1:18, Jeremiah 3:12, Habakkuk 1:12, Philippians 3:21, Hebrews 10:26-27.

17. God speaks of ransoming/redeeming ALL from death and the grave – without exception. See Psalm 49:15, Ezekiel 16:55, Romans 6:23, Ephesians 1:10.

18. God is both willing AND able to save all. Given that He is omnipotent, we can ALL look forward with confidence to our eventual salvation. See Psalm 49:15, 86:13, 103:8-14, 136, Isaiah 1:18, 6:7, 25:7-8, 26:19, 33:24, 43:25, 44:22, 45:8, 55:8-9, 57:16, 64:6-9, Jeremiah 3:12. Lamentations 3:26-32, Ezekiel 11:19, 16:55, Hosea 13:14, Micah 4:5, 7:18-19, Ephesians 1:10, Philipians 3:21, Colossians 1:19-20, I Thessalonians 1:10, I Timothy 1:15, 2:4-6, 4:10, 6:13, II Peter 3:9.

19. God compares Himself to a cleansing or refining agent – usually as fire, but sometimes as soap. Therefore, all instances of supernatural fire should be interpreted as being for refining and/or purification, not damnation. Fire in the Bible is never Hellfire, but natural fire or God’s Fire. See Malachi 3:2-3, Matthew 3:10-12, I Corinthians 3:15.

20. If God’s Fire is for baptism and refining, then that which is burned must be our carnal, sinful nature. It is symbolized by unfruitful trees, tares, chaff, wood, hay and stubble – by anything unable to endure the Fire. See Matthew 3:10-12, I Corinthians 3:11-15.

21. “Hell” is used in the King James Version (and others) to replace four other words: “Sheol,” “Hades,” “Gehenna” and “Tartarus.” None of these four refer to a place of damnation or Eternal Conscious Torment. See any decent dictionary, especially the Oxford English Dictionary.

22. When we dig out mistranslations and peel away misinterpretations, we find that Hell is an imposition, an insertion into the text. With Hell so deconstructed, the Bible and God are both silent on Hell. See Numbers 23:19, John 14:2.

23. Christians should not follow the Hell of the ancient, pagan religions, such as the “Hel” we find in Norse mythology, but follow the truth of God’s Word, which does not contain either the concept of Hell or even the word “hell,” except in imperfect translations.

a reply to: Lazarus Short

There is a degree of God and Jesus on this earth.
Should we be outside of any relationship from God, could that not be hell

Should God totally remove all form of His relationship from people who don't want any relationship, would that not be immense suffering, hopelessness


It's not about a place it's about relationship or lack thereof

a reply to: metal5643

Here is your answer: Create your own religious sect.

If people see value in what you are preaching and want to believe in what you are doing, they will follow. However, the minute you start to compel adherence, you are no better than any other religion that has tried to convert by the sword making it every bit as irrational as anything you despise now.

a reply to: Raggedyman

Would god ever ask his followers to end a life? If they asked you, would you?

originally posted by: Raggedyman
a reply to: Lazarus Short

There is a degree of God and Jesus on this earth.
Should we be outside of any relationship from God, could that not be hell

Should God totally remove all form of His relationship from people who don't want any relationship, would that not be immense suffering, hopelessness


It's not about a place it's about relationship or lack thereof

In the end, it boils down to God's intention. My findings are that He wants to save all, but can He? Yes! Because God is omnipotent, it will be done. All are, and will be, saved. Satan, maybe not. Do you propose to prop up your own puny carnal will against the omnipotent, sovereign Will of the Creator God? Not me.

BTW, you DID read my conclusions and look up all the Biblical references, right...?

a reply to: metal5643

Then religion would not exist!

You might like the Jefferson Bible:

en.wikipedia.org...

originally posted by: Lazarus Short
Do you propose to prop up your own puny carnal will against the omnipotent, sovereign Will of the Creator God? Not me.

Oh please! God knew exactly what was going to happen to the apple in the garden with a naked woman prancing about! Having "will" is a complete delusion. Unless you can choose what your choices are you have no will. Unless each of us has omnipotent powers just what exactly is God judging by our flawed choices? Nothing.

a reply to: Lazarus Short

Pure Calvinistic nonsense
God loves us but denies us free will, that's not love that's slavery
God has given us choice, be with Him or not; that is our choice

Love does not force itself, God does not force Himself

No I didn't read what you wrote, it didn't take me two years to write off what it took you two years to believe. I am not a universal reconciliation believer

God is sovereign but He has handed over His soverinty to us so we can be in His image
I belive You have made a string of false conclusions leading up to an assumption that you can only believe by faith
You can't know

originally posted by: ClovenSky
a reply to: Raggedyman

Would god ever ask his followers to end a life? If they asked you, would you?

It's interesting, Jesus said Christians are to become like Him
He died rather than fight
What do you think?

If "they", who are "they"?

a reply to: Raggedyman

Or maybe ... Jesus fought by dying. In that way, He struck a far greater blow for His Father than simply physically saving his earthly body ever could.

a reply to: ketsuko

Well yes I guess we can say Jesus fought, albeit spiritually not physically
I stand corrected 😁

OK, OP. Get it now? Just read what the religious nutters are arguing about. There is no reforming this crap.

a reply to: Raggedyman

God fights for the spiritual, not the earthly, not until the end that is.