Brexit is a Mess, how do we Fix it.

originally posted by: ScepticScot

The overwhelming majority of economists agree that leaving the EU will have an negative impact on the economy with a no deal brexit having the biggest negative impact.

Overwhelming majority????

NO

There are an equal number of economists that totally disagree with ^^^that^^^^

Wishful thinking does not make good economics and being outside the single market and customs union puts us at a significant disadvantage.

That is a matter of opinion ........not a FACT.

a reply to: eletheia

Considering the unicorn (Scotland) is a mythical creature and only exists in the imagination 'being chained' only compounds the myth

I think that if you really want to be able to read you need to understand your symbolism. The written word is exoteric by nature. If you want to read deeper learn your esoteric language.

To you the language of mythology may not make sense probably because you may have never had the time or inclination to learn it. But there is a level of meaning that you dont see and is of great interest to the enquiring mind.

Happy days to you

:-)

originally posted by: UKTruth

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: UKTruth
a reply to: ScepticScot

No, full time employment dropped when we first joined the Common market and sank to an all time low.
We then further integrated and flat lined.
Around 2012 we started to pick up and we've been rising since - which was when David Cameron challenged the EU power grab and promised a referendum if they did not renegotiate.
After the referendum Full Time employment and wages have been going up.

In other words, Brexit has had NO negative impact on FT employment and has actually been a positive (significantly so).
But go ahead and wallow in the news stories of companies leaving the UK.
The rest of us understand we don't need Europe. They've been holding us back.

Utter bollocks.

The UK economy was widely acknowledged as the 'sick man of europe' in the 60s and 70s one if the reasons the UK was so desperate to get into the common market.

The overwhelming majority of economists agree that leaving the EU will have an negative impact on the economy with a no deal brexit having the biggest negative impact.

Wishful thinking does not make good economics and being outside the single market and customs union puts us at a significant disadvantage.

Yet the actual stats on Full time employment show a decline after we joined the Common market and flatline all the way to 2012, with a healthy increase since, including after the Brexit vote in 2016.

But, ok, we'll let you wallow in your emotions at having lost the debate about Brexit. Your arguments lost badly and we're leaving the EU.
You can doom monger all you like. I'm loving the outcome.

No emotions involved, I am giving you the view of the overwhelming majority of economists who say we are likely to be worse off after Brexit. Your view seems based on evidence free wishful thinking.

Also would you care to provide a link backing up Your claim regarding full time employment?

originally posted by: eletheia

originally posted by: ScepticScot

The overwhelming majority of economists agree that leaving the EU will have an negative impact on the economy with a no deal brexit having the biggest negative impact.

Overwhelming majority????

NO

There are an equal number of economists that totally disagree with ^^^that^^^^

Wishful thinking does not make good economics and being outside the single market and customs union puts us at a significant disadvantage.

That is a matter of opinion ........not a FACT.

There really isn't.

originally posted by: UKTruth

originally posted by: Freeborn
a reply to: UKTruth

Just catching up but got to comment on this;

Employment is going up -........

Yes, 'employment is going up', but it has nothing to do with Brexit and how many of those in 'employment' are on zero hours contracts or minimum wage?

Minimum wage is crap and no-one earning that can keep a roof over their family's head, feed them, keep them warm and all other necessities.
So nearly all families have at least two incomes coming in and are probably claiming one sort of benefit or another.

Gone are the days where one householder could fund everything.

As a result there is quite are considerable, varied and complicated impacts on society as a whole.

So claims of 'employment going up' doesn't really paint the full picture, far from it.

Like I said, wallow all you like, but others will focus on Britain and our competitiveness around the globe, free of EU restrictions.

I agree, many people are wallowing and we absolutely HAVE to try to move forward in a positive manner.
But we have to be brutally honest if we are to achieve that.

Putitng more people in work on appalling wages isn't my idea of moving forward.

The type of employment has been covered
FULL TIME employment is UP.
Average wage is UP.
Average Hrs is UP.
Minimum Wage (hrly rate) is UP.

It's all going in the right direction.

Is it the best it could be - no.
Has it been good because we were in the EU - No.
However, the information was published to counter the doom mongering that we're losing jobs because of Brexit.
We're not.
Some companies will suffer, others will flourish.
Given our freedom to trade globally after we leave the EU, I believe we'll be MORE competitive, not less.
Membership of the EU has not improved things for us.

All trends predating the Brexit vote. I bet you think Trump turned round the US economy as well.

Not to mention we haven't actually left yet.

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: UKTruth

originally posted by: Freeborn
a reply to: UKTruth

Just catching up but got to comment on this;

Employment is going up -........

Yes, 'employment is going up', but it has nothing to do with Brexit and how many of those in 'employment' are on zero hours contracts or minimum wage?

Minimum wage is crap and no-one earning that can keep a roof over their family's head, feed them, keep them warm and all other necessities.
So nearly all families have at least two incomes coming in and are probably claiming one sort of benefit or another.

Gone are the days where one householder could fund everything.

As a result there is quite are considerable, varied and complicated impacts on society as a whole.

So claims of 'employment going up' doesn't really paint the full picture, far from it.

Like I said, wallow all you like, but others will focus on Britain and our competitiveness around the globe, free of EU restrictions.

I agree, many people are wallowing and we absolutely HAVE to try to move forward in a positive manner.
But we have to be brutally honest if we are to achieve that.

Putitng more people in work on appalling wages isn't my idea of moving forward.

The type of employment has been covered
FULL TIME employment is UP.
Average wage is UP.
Average Hrs is UP.
Minimum Wage (hrly rate) is UP.

It's all going in the right direction.

Is it the best it could be - no.
Has it been good because we were in the EU - No.
However, the information was published to counter the doom mongering that we're losing jobs because of Brexit.
We're not.
Some companies will suffer, others will flourish.
Given our freedom to trade globally after we leave the EU, I believe we'll be MORE competitive, not less.
Membership of the EU has not improved things for us.

All trends predating the Brexit vote. I bet you think Trump turned round the US economy as well.

Not to mention we haven't actually left yet.

The point is we're not suffering because we decided to leave the EU - as is being claimed by the losers of the Brexit debate.

Trump lives in your head too?
All I can see is the US economy surging and Trump is in power. Let me guess... Obama did it?

You guys always losing and pretending to yourselves you're winning.

originally posted by: UKTruth

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: UKTruth

originally posted by: Freeborn
a reply to: UKTruth

Just catching up but got to comment on this;

Employment is going up -........

Yes, 'employment is going up', but it has nothing to do with Brexit and how many of those in 'employment' are on zero hours contracts or minimum wage?

Minimum wage is crap and no-one earning that can keep a roof over their family's head, feed them, keep them warm and all other necessities.
So nearly all families have at least two incomes coming in and are probably claiming one sort of benefit or another.

Gone are the days where one householder could fund everything.

As a result there is quite are considerable, varied and complicated impacts on society as a whole.

So claims of 'employment going up' doesn't really paint the full picture, far from it.

Like I said, wallow all you like, but others will focus on Britain and our competitiveness around the globe, free of EU restrictions.

I agree, many people are wallowing and we absolutely HAVE to try to move forward in a positive manner.
But we have to be brutally honest if we are to achieve that.

Putitng more people in work on appalling wages isn't my idea of moving forward.

The type of employment has been covered
FULL TIME employment is UP.
Average wage is UP.
Average Hrs is UP.
Minimum Wage (hrly rate) is UP.

It's all going in the right direction.

Is it the best it could be - no.
Has it been good because we were in the EU - No.
However, the information was published to counter the doom mongering that we're losing jobs because of Brexit.
We're not.
Some companies will suffer, others will flourish.
Given our freedom to trade globally after we leave the EU, I believe we'll be MORE competitive, not less.
Membership of the EU has not improved things for us.

All trends predating the Brexit vote. I bet you think Trump turned round the US economy as well.

Not to mention we haven't actually left yet.

The point is we're not suffering because we decided to leave the EU - as is being claimed by the losers of the Brexit debate.

Trump lives in your head too?
All I can see is the US economy surging and Trump is in power. Let me guess... Obama did it?

You guys always losing and pretending to yourselves you're winning.

Much like the US the economy been growing since about 2010 so not really Brexit or Trump.

Also (again) we haven't actually left yet.

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: UKTruth

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: UKTruth

originally posted by: Freeborn
a reply to: UKTruth

Just catching up but got to comment on this;

Employment is going up -........

Yes, 'employment is going up', but it has nothing to do with Brexit and how many of those in 'employment' are on zero hours contracts or minimum wage?

Minimum wage is crap and no-one earning that can keep a roof over their family's head, feed them, keep them warm and all other necessities.
So nearly all families have at least two incomes coming in and are probably claiming one sort of benefit or another.

Gone are the days where one householder could fund everything.

As a result there is quite are considerable, varied and complicated impacts on society as a whole.

So claims of 'employment going up' doesn't really paint the full picture, far from it.

Like I said, wallow all you like, but others will focus on Britain and our competitiveness around the globe, free of EU restrictions.

I agree, many people are wallowing and we absolutely HAVE to try to move forward in a positive manner.
But we have to be brutally honest if we are to achieve that.

Putitng more people in work on appalling wages isn't my idea of moving forward.

The type of employment has been covered
FULL TIME employment is UP.
Average wage is UP.
Average Hrs is UP.
Minimum Wage (hrly rate) is UP.

It's all going in the right direction.

Is it the best it could be - no.
Has it been good because we were in the EU - No.
However, the information was published to counter the doom mongering that we're losing jobs because of Brexit.
We're not.
Some companies will suffer, others will flourish.
Given our freedom to trade globally after we leave the EU, I believe we'll be MORE competitive, not less.
Membership of the EU has not improved things for us.

All trends predating the Brexit vote. I bet you think Trump turned round the US economy as well.

Not to mention we haven't actually left yet.

The point is we're not suffering because we decided to leave the EU - as is being claimed by the losers of the Brexit debate.

Trump lives in your head too?
All I can see is the US economy surging and Trump is in power. Let me guess... Obama did it?

You guys always losing and pretending to yourselves you're winning.

Much like the US the economy been growing since about 2010 so not really Brexit or Trump.

Also (again) we haven't actually left yet.

Us economy : slowest recovery from recession in American history and Obama on record saying it would take a magic wand to bring manufacturing jobs back. Trump comes along, obliterates unneccessary regulations, the economy booms, manufactiring jobs flood back in to the US, the stock market sky rockets, black and hispanic unemployment hits record lows, consumer confidence sky rockets... yeah, but but but Obama. Just like a leftist - things go bad - "it was the other guys fauilt", things go well "I did that!"

Also (again) the point is that the whining that we're in trouble because we decided to leave the EU is just that - whining.
Wallowing, in fact, just because some people can;t come to terms with the very real fact that they lost the Brexit argument.

originally posted by: UKTruth

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: UKTruth

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: UKTruth

originally posted by: Freeborn
a reply to: UKTruth

Just catching up but got to comment on this;

Employment is going up -........

Yes, 'employment is going up', but it has nothing to do with Brexit and how many of those in 'employment' are on zero hours contracts or minimum wage?

Minimum wage is crap and no-one earning that can keep a roof over their family's head, feed them, keep them warm and all other necessities.
So nearly all families have at least two incomes coming in and are probably claiming one sort of benefit or another.

Gone are the days where one householder could fund everything.

As a result there is quite are considerable, varied and complicated impacts on society as a whole.

So claims of 'employment going up' doesn't really paint the full picture, far from it.

Like I said, wallow all you like, but others will focus on Britain and our competitiveness around the globe, free of EU restrictions.

I agree, many people are wallowing and we absolutely HAVE to try to move forward in a positive manner.
But we have to be brutally honest if we are to achieve that.

Putitng more people in work on appalling wages isn't my idea of moving forward.

The type of employment has been covered
FULL TIME employment is UP.
Average wage is UP.
Average Hrs is UP.
Minimum Wage (hrly rate) is UP.

It's all going in the right direction.

Is it the best it could be - no.
Has it been good because we were in the EU - No.
However, the information was published to counter the doom mongering that we're losing jobs because of Brexit.
We're not.
Some companies will suffer, others will flourish.
Given our freedom to trade globally after we leave the EU, I believe we'll be MORE competitive, not less.
Membership of the EU has not improved things for us.

All trends predating the Brexit vote. I bet you think Trump turned round the US economy as well.

Not to mention we haven't actually left yet.

The point is we're not suffering because we decided to leave the EU - as is being claimed by the losers of the Brexit debate.

Trump lives in your head too?
All I can see is the US economy surging and Trump is in power. Let me guess... Obama did it?

You guys always losing and pretending to yourselves you're winning.

Much like the US the economy been growing since about 2010 so not really Brexit or Trump.

Also (again) we haven't actually left yet.

Us economy : slowest recovery from recession in American history and Obama on record saying it would take a magic wand to bring manufacturing jobs back. Trump comes along, obliterates unneccessary regulations, the economy booms, manufactiring jobs flood back in to the US, the stock market sky rockets, black and hispanic unemployment hits record lows, consumer confidence sky rockets... yeah, but but but Obama. Just like a leftist - things go bad - "it was the other guys fauilt", things go well "I did that!"

Also (again) the point is that the whining that we're in trouble because we decided to leave the EU is just that - whining.
Wallowing, in fact, just because some people can;t come to terms with the very real fact that they lost the Brexit argument.

Yep as I thought. You buy the Trump economy myth.

You seem between confused between whining and pointing out economy realities.

You also seem confused between having lost the vote and lost the argument.

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: UKTruth

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: UKTruth

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: UKTruth

originally posted by: Freeborn
a reply to: UKTruth

Just catching up but got to comment on this;

Employment is going up -........

Yes, 'employment is going up', but it has nothing to do with Brexit and how many of those in 'employment' are on zero hours contracts or minimum wage?

Minimum wage is crap and no-one earning that can keep a roof over their family's head, feed them, keep them warm and all other necessities.
So nearly all families have at least two incomes coming in and are probably claiming one sort of benefit or another.

Gone are the days where one householder could fund everything.

As a result there is quite are considerable, varied and complicated impacts on society as a whole.

So claims of 'employment going up' doesn't really paint the full picture, far from it.

Like I said, wallow all you like, but others will focus on Britain and our competitiveness around the globe, free of EU restrictions.

I agree, many people are wallowing and we absolutely HAVE to try to move forward in a positive manner.
But we have to be brutally honest if we are to achieve that.

Putitng more people in work on appalling wages isn't my idea of moving forward.

The type of employment has been covered
FULL TIME employment is UP.
Average wage is UP.
Average Hrs is UP.
Minimum Wage (hrly rate) is UP.

It's all going in the right direction.

Is it the best it could be - no.
Has it been good because we were in the EU - No.
However, the information was published to counter the doom mongering that we're losing jobs because of Brexit.
We're not.
Some companies will suffer, others will flourish.
Given our freedom to trade globally after we leave the EU, I believe we'll be MORE competitive, not less.
Membership of the EU has not improved things for us.

All trends predating the Brexit vote. I bet you think Trump turned round the US economy as well.

Not to mention we haven't actually left yet.

The point is we're not suffering because we decided to leave the EU - as is being claimed by the losers of the Brexit debate.

Trump lives in your head too?
All I can see is the US economy surging and Trump is in power. Let me guess... Obama did it?

You guys always losing and pretending to yourselves you're winning.

Much like the US the economy been growing since about 2010 so not really Brexit or Trump.

Also (again) we haven't actually left yet.

Us economy : slowest recovery from recession in American history and Obama on record saying it would take a magic wand to bring manufacturing jobs back. Trump comes along, obliterates unneccessary regulations, the economy booms, manufactiring jobs flood back in to the US, the stock market sky rockets, black and hispanic unemployment hits record lows, consumer confidence sky rockets... yeah, but but but Obama. Just like a leftist - things go bad - "it was the other guys fauilt", things go well "I did that!"

Also (again) the point is that the whining that we're in trouble because we decided to leave the EU is just that - whining.
Wallowing, in fact, just because some people can;t come to terms with the very real fact that they lost the Brexit argument.

Yep as I thought. You buy the Trump economy myth.

You seem between confused between whining and pointing out economy realities.

You also seem confused between having lost the vote and lost the argument.

I will defer to your experience of losing. You're much more used to it.
I get it, losing is painful for you, so reality becomes myth.
I'll leave you to wallow - having a few drinks tonight to celebrate the Brexit victory before the Christmas parties ramp up.

originally posted by: UKTruth

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: UKTruth

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: UKTruth

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: UKTruth

originally posted by: Freeborn
a reply to: UKTruth

Just catching up but got to comment on this;

Employment is going up -........

Yes, 'employment is going up', but it has nothing to do with Brexit and how many of those in 'employment' are on zero hours contracts or minimum wage?

Minimum wage is crap and no-one earning that can keep a roof over their family's head, feed them, keep them warm and all other necessities.
So nearly all families have at least two incomes coming in and are probably claiming one sort of benefit or another.

Gone are the days where one householder could fund everything.

As a result there is quite are considerable, varied and complicated impacts on society as a whole.

So claims of 'employment going up' doesn't really paint the full picture, far from it.

Like I said, wallow all you like, but others will focus on Britain and our competitiveness around the globe, free of EU restrictions.

I agree, many people are wallowing and we absolutely HAVE to try to move forward in a positive manner.
But we have to be brutally honest if we are to achieve that.

Putitng more people in work on appalling wages isn't my idea of moving forward.

The type of employment has been covered
FULL TIME employment is UP.
Average wage is UP.
Average Hrs is UP.
Minimum Wage (hrly rate) is UP.

It's all going in the right direction.

Is it the best it could be - no.
Has it been good because we were in the EU - No.
However, the information was published to counter the doom mongering that we're losing jobs because of Brexit.
We're not.
Some companies will suffer, others will flourish.
Given our freedom to trade globally after we leave the EU, I believe we'll be MORE competitive, not less.
Membership of the EU has not improved things for us.

All trends predating the Brexit vote. I bet you think Trump turned round the US economy as well.

Not to mention we haven't actually left yet.

The point is we're not suffering because we decided to leave the EU - as is being claimed by the losers of the Brexit debate.

Trump lives in your head too?
All I can see is the US economy surging and Trump is in power. Let me guess... Obama did it?

You guys always losing and pretending to yourselves you're winning.

Much like the US the economy been growing since about 2010 so not really Brexit or Trump.

Also (again) we haven't actually left yet.

Us economy : slowest recovery from recession in American history and Obama on record saying it would take a magic wand to bring manufacturing jobs back. Trump comes along, obliterates unneccessary regulations, the economy booms, manufactiring jobs flood back in to the US, the stock market sky rockets, black and hispanic unemployment hits record lows, consumer confidence sky rockets... yeah, but but but Obama. Just like a leftist - things go bad - "it was the other guys fauilt", things go well "I did that!"

Also (again) the point is that the whining that we're in trouble because we decided to leave the EU is just that - whining.
Wallowing, in fact, just because some people can;t come to terms with the very real fact that they lost the Brexit argument.

Yep as I thought. You buy the Trump economy myth.

You seem between confused between whining and pointing out economy realities.

You also seem confused between having lost the vote and lost the argument.

I will defer to your experience of losing. You're much more used to it.

Pretty sure the party I voted for did better than the party you voted for in last election.

Got a link for those full time employment stats yet?

For all our sometimes “spirited” differences about Brexit, Scottish independence etc, I wish each one of you a very Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year.

Have a good one !

a reply to: UKTruth

First of all; I'm very much in favour of Brexit.

I don't believe the harbingers of doom who predict we'll recede into some sort of depression like economic slump.
But I do realise there is a reasonable possibility that we might face a short term downturn - a price worth paying to be free from EU shackles and control.

But I don't know what part of the UK you're from or familiar with but I fail to see this blooming Britain you seem intent on portraying.
To put it as simple as possible; literally millions of people are working for crap wages and require their partners and/or some sort of government benefit simply to survive.

The standard of living for ordinary, everyday working British people is flatlining and in some places actually getting worse.

As someone who generated and interpreted statistics for a living in a past lifetime I can assure you they can be manipulated and presented any way one see's fit in order to support or refute any particular agenda or message desired.

I am absolutely certain this country can develop and grow post-Brexit.
I have a passionate belief in the inventiveness, creativity, resourcefulness and adaptability of the British people.
We are also an incredibly resilient people who absolutely refuse to give in to adversity.

But we need to be brutally honest if we are to move forward and failing to recognise that paying people # wages and expecting them to work in poor conditions with little representation and protection is not the way to move forward.

It remains to be seen if this government and administration is either willing or able to foster the conditions and environment that will enable to do this.

Spouting propaganda and party rhetoric proves and achieves nothing and only helps maintain the divisions in our society that help hold us back.

originally posted by: Freeborn
a reply to: UKTruth

I am making a very simple point backed up by data.
We're not suffering economically because we decided to leave the EU - as the doom mongers would have us believe.

I am absolutely certain this country can develop and grow post-Brexit.
I have a passionate belief in the inventiveness, creativity, resourcefulness and adaptability of the British people.
We are also an incredibly resilient people who absolutely refuse to give in to adversity.

We agree on that.

But we need to be brutally honest if we are to move forward and failing to recognise that paying people # wages and expecting them to work in poor conditions with little representation and protection is not the way to move forward.

We agree on that too - but that is not a Brexit issue.

a reply to: UKTruth

I am making a very simple point backed up by data. We're not suffering economically because we decided to leave the EU

erm your making stuff up again.

We are still a trade member and partner within the European Union.

You will have the data when you leave. What you are talking about is...

your imagination..

a reply to: UKTruth

I am making a very simple point backed up by data.

Sourced from where?

As I said, statistics can be manipulated and presented in such a way to support almost any chosen narrative or agenda.

We're not suffering economically because we decided to leave the EU - as the doom mongers would have us believe.

Anyone who thinks we have seen anything like the full effect of Brexit yet must either be incredibly naïve and/or a complete and utter moron.

You have been saying that wages and full time employment are up.
If true, and I'm very uncertain as to the accuracy of that, then it certainly has nothing to do with Brexit, yet.

Why aren't ensuring decent and fair post-Brexit workers wages and strong workers rights 'a Brexit issue'?
For many of us they are amongst the very core issues surrounding Brexit.

a reply to: Freeborn

Oh come on. Lighten up. Boris will take us into a new golden age. He will look after us like his own children.
Ah. Hang on.... Bugger!

😣😪😰🍺

originally posted by: UKTruth

originally posted by: Freeborn
a reply to: UKTruth

I am making a very simple point backed up by data.
We're not suffering economically because we decided to leave the EU - as the doom mongers would have us believe.

I am absolutely certain this country can develop and grow post-Brexit.
I have a passionate belief in the inventiveness, creativity, resourcefulness and adaptability of the British people.
We are also an incredibly resilient people who absolutely refuse to give in to adversity.

We agree on that.

But we need to be brutally honest if we are to move forward and failing to recognise that paying people # wages and expecting them to work in poor conditions with little representation and protection is not the way to move forward.

We agree on that too - but that is not a Brexit issue.

There is plenty of evidence that the EU vote has already impacted the UK economy.

Economic growth is well behind where it was expected to be prior to the referendum result.

Not all of that can be attributed to Brexit but it would incredibly naive to believe that it isn't a significant factor.

originally posted by: oldcarpy
a reply to: Freeborn

Oh come on. Lighten up. Boris will take us into a new golden age. He will look after us like his own children.
Ah. Hang on.... Bugger!

😣😪😰🍺

What all 4, no wait 5, ehmmm what number was it again Boris.

a reply to: oldcarpy

After two days of sobriety its hard to look at things light heartedly.

However, I do find it amusing to watch all these die-hard Tories and Boris sycophants look at life with a misty eyed romanticism somewhat akin to that displayed by Sturgeon fawning Nats.
The similarities are disturbingly striking.



All the best to you and yours my friend.