Brexit is a Mess, how do we Fix it.

originally posted by: Freeborn

You make it sound as if England is forcing Scotland into this Union.
First of all; Scotland approached England as asked for Union.....that is an undeniable historic FACT.
Secondly; in 2014 Scotland held a democratic referendum and voted to Remain in the UK....that is an undeniable FACT.
Thirdly; Scotland has many devolved powers and has its own democratically elected assembly which passes laws on many, many issues.....that is an undeniable FACT.
The point is; Scotland is not some sort of subjugated land under the tyrannical hold of the bastard English.

Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP would do better if they concentrated more on

the Scottish economy than independence .......

Breaking up the Union would leave Scotland in serious financial trouble. Indeed, economists have warned that an independent Scotland would face years of cuts in public service, or tax rises, or a combination of both.

Under the Barnett Formula – the mechanism by which public spending is divided across the UK – Scotland receives a full 20 per cent more per head of population than England, a substantial sum, however the SNP tries to spin it.

Despite the generosity of the Barnett Formula, Scotland’s spending deficit was seven times higher as a percentage of GDP than the UK average during the last financial year. And that was after a heavy round of cuts to public services.
An independent Scotland would lose the security of sterling and would no longer have the protection of Bank of England to underwrite its debts.

Not exactly a thriving economy! /SMH

a reply to: sapien82

As I've said quite frequently, Scotland will do as Scotland see's fit.....and that's exactly as it should be.

Its just the constant moaning and whether you acknowledge it or not the non-stop portrayal of Scotland and its people as some sort of repressed, subjugated people under the yolk of English tyranny.
You may be a bit too close to it to recognise but I assure you that is exactly the way it comes across.....and its so wrong and so wide of the mark.

I recognise the failings of our current system and am probably one of its most fierce and vocal critics.
But I fail to see how anyone can think that the EU is anything but even less fit for purpose than our domestic one.

And I really don't understand how you would think that Scotland leaving the Union would be good for the UK or England....we are better and stronger together.

But I guess that's just my take on things and as such is very much irrelevant.

originally posted by: sapien82

did ye see the increase in google searches" how to move to scotland" after the election results

That must be ALL the Scots who have been living in England all this time........

Always wondered why they stayed here as they were always whinging about it

a reply to: eletheia

Right and at least we;d be able to blame ourselves rather than westminster

its not a problem we will tackle it when it happens.

Id rather have an independent nation than suffer under another # knows how many tory governments.


There have been tories admitting that Scotland isnt subsidised at all
so dont know what to believe any more
but check you out eh every opportunity to tell me that Scotland wont work as an independent nation.

a reply to: Freeborn
Ah, we are better and stronger together??? You mean like we were in the EU?
Scotland has exactly the same scenario, a different country to England yet they are ruled by a majority that they didn't elect.

a reply to: crayzeed

Nothing like the EU.

Scotland has devolved power....personally I'd like to see them and all other regions of the UK have more devolved power within some sort of Federal framework.
The EU seeks to take power away from democratically elected national assemblies.

Quite the opposite.

a reply to: Freeborn

I voted for independence in our Scottish referendum but have never whined about the result. If we had another one I'd vote the other way. The idea that Scotland would apply to re-join the EU after independence (the SNP's reason) is in my view insane but I could see it happening as we did vote to remain in the EU.

Also, the way our last referendum played out and divided the country has made me re-think my position, I didn't like what I saw from both camps. It will be fun though, watching the faux outrage from Sturgeon and co when we do exit the EU.
One thing that really is of concern, is a Tory government with a large majority.

a reply to: midicon

As usual a very well thought out, reasoned and presented post.

I know all Scots don't whine incessantly just as I know that there is far more to sapien and other Scottish people here on ATS.

In fact I have enormous respect for him and andy.....just don't tell them that!

But sometimes it does appear that way and it also sometimes feels as if they think they are the only people in the UK who have been shat on by Westminster......nothing could be further from the truth.

Scottish independence is obviously an emotive subject and its also very complicated.

I just wish that we could see past the few things that divide us, cherish and value the many things that unite us and work together to change this great nation of OURS into something we can ALL be proud of.

The ties that bind are deep.

Idealistic?
Maybe....but even at my age we need something to strive for and be passionate about.

originally posted by: Freeborn
a reply to: midicon

As usual a very well thought out, reasoned and presented post.

I know all Scots don't whine incessantly just as I know that there is far more to sapien and other Scottish people here on ATS.

In fact I have enormous respect for him and andy.....just don't tell them that!

But sometimes it does appear that way and it also sometimes feels as if they think they are the only people in the UK who have been shat on by Westminster......nothing could be further from the truth.

Scottish independence is obviously an emotive subject and its also very complicated.

I just wish that we could see past the few things that divide us, cherish and value the many things that unite us and work together to change this great nation of OURS into something we can ALL be proud of.

The ties that bind are deep.

Idealistic?
Maybe....but even at my age we need something to strive for and be passionate about.

That's nice and noble in principle but the reality is there is, and has been for decades, a significant political split between England and Scotland.

The conservative party won 2 thirds of seats in England but only 10% in Scotland. You are right that the whole of the UK gets shat on by Westminster but in England there are a significant number who seem to like take smell and who support a party that is ideologically opposed to significant reform.

There is a large number of Indy supporters who believe that Scotland should be independent regardless of any other factors. However the growth in independence support comes from people like me who have realised there us no hope of real change while we stay part of the UK.

a reply to: Freeborn

First of all; Scotland approached England as asked for Union.....that is an undeniable historic FACT.

Pish.

Secondly; in 2014 Scotland held a democratic referendum and voted to Remain in the UK....that is an undeniable FACT.

Project fear was in full flow. democratic my arse. Lies lies and more lies.

Thirdly; Scotland has many devolved powers and has its own democratically elected assembly which passes laws on many, many issues.....that is an undeniable FACT.

We don't just want some powers, the #ty little powers that England can't be arsed with. Ye, we are allowed to tax up, but not tax down or tax lower than England allowing Scotland to be more competitive. We want full devolved powers. you know, The other 70% England won't let us have.

Here, Educate yourself on the act of Union and how it came about.

Act of union, the creation of the united kingdom

Sign and we'll pay you, rich guys, everything you lost on Darian and not steal your lands south of the border...also, we won't starve your population to death, a trick we have used countless times and have it down to a fine art.Alien act 1705,

a reply to: Soloprotocol

Shhhh, stop talking nonsense Ian and let the grown up's talk.

UK : "lets all leave the EU as its undemocratic"

UK : leaves the EU under brexit

UK: a constitutional monarchy with an unelected royal as head of state
and around 60 members of the house of lords plus 12 religious leaders are unelected
have effectively ruled the Uk since he formation of parliament

and only the tories are supporting the continuation of the house of lords
I wonder why

originally posted by: Freeborn
a reply to: Soloprotocol

Shhhh, stop talking nonsense Ian and let the grown up's talk.

BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

whit exactly makes ye "grown up "

a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

How to fix it...? I think it is important to have all the facts straight from day one. Any idea how much tax money already has been wasted because of this mess. With the money still to be wasted in the future on this matter many, many good things can be done for the people of the UK.

a reply to: sapien82

The House of Lords does not overrule The House of Commons.
You know that, I know that, everybody knows that.

It is however an outdated anachronism and we need some sort of elected second house with maybe a percentage of members given positions on merit and achievement.

A Constitutional Monarchy who has no real power in practice and who is apolitical.

I hate the idea of an hereditary monarchy but its got to be said Liz has conducted herself with amazing dignity and deserves an enormous amount of respect.
I'm coming round to the idea that when she eventually goes we should tell The Royal Family that enough is enough and its time they went and got a real job etc.

But we have to look at the alternatives.....look at the quality of Presidential Heads of State around the world, they're not very impressive are they?
Look at the quality of party leaders we had at the recent election and the last few leaders before them.....hardly inspiring is it?

Maybe we should run on a joint ticket?

As for being grown up? Yeah....I knew that was a bit of a stretch.

Solo is a dear isn't he.
Perhaps we could find a place for him in our administration?

a reply to: Freeborn

So are you saying that in over 300 years since the union was formed the Lords and the royals havent in any way shape or form dictated as to how they want their country to run ?

I dont #in believe it for a second mate , you wouldnt trust a politician so why would you trust
#s that were born with a silver spoon in their mouths or who preach the holy book to tax the serfs

Do you really think that the Queen of great britain has no power or sway in matters of the UK
I dont believe that either

we collectively bang on about how the eton lot controls the UK
but just say ahhh its only wee auld lizzie , she is harmless

NAW

The House of Lords debates legislation, and has power to amend or reject bills. However, the power of the Lords to reject a bill passed by the House of Commons is severely restricted by the Parliament Acts.

Restricted is not the same thing as blocked

all you need give them is an inch

She has very little powers

oh you know just things like blocking your right to self determination

boris uses queens speech to rule out INDY2

originally posted by: Freeborn

The House of Lords does not overrule The House of Commons.
You know that, I know that, everybody knows that.
It is however an outdated anachronism and we need some sort of elected second house with maybe a percentage of members given positions on merit and achievement.

Its time the honours system was reviewed. Lords, Ladies and Sirs are ten a

penny these days, there is no real purpose for them? (except I believe if you

want a table at a restaurant or theatre tickets it's handy to have a title )


They should also be retired at 70 years old OR as soon as they are unable to

stay awake in their seats

a reply to: eletheia

yaaay

agreed get them tae # !

, The thing is though the conservatives keep the afloat , they seem to keep supporting the idea of the house of lords