Brexit is a Mess, how do we Fix it.

originally posted by: OtherSideOfTheCoin
a reply to: oldcarpy

might have been just pisses me off that the leaves of decorum have fallen so low on ATS.

Dont get me wrong the anti-english stuff is just as bad this comment was just he one I saw.

Don't understand why people can't just debate the point without all this kind of crap.

Slightly modified an attribution to Socrates.....

When debate is lost derision and insults become the tool of the loser.

I've been thinking. I know, dangerous business and all that.

Are we now going to become a country forever divided between remainers and leavers?

I wonder, as a leaver myself, having seen the referendum win and the massive sabotage of that mandate ever since, I feel betrayed by the system. Utterly betrayed.

I don't think that anything less than a real Brexit, where the EU courts and political apparatus have zero powers over the people I might vote for here would do anything to stop me feeling as though I don't live in a democracy.

It would probably be easier as a remainer, at least, no matter how bad leaving gets, you can look at the referendum and shrug and say "Well, we had a vote, the majority spoke."

There is nothing that can make not leaving remotely palatable for the rest of us though. We had a vote, we won, despite the government pulling out all the stops for the other side, despite most of the mp's backing the other side, despite the MSM backing the other side (with a couple of notable exceptions).

Yet here we are, a deal which isn't leaving, or another chance to vote their way...neither of which gives what we supposedly won in that referendum.

For the good of the country, I think the only sensible course would be to leave properly, remainers will get over losing the vote, maybe in 20 years they might enjoy being out or at least drum up support for a referendum on joining...

Leavers though? If we don't get what we voted for, how will we heal? Will we ever feel part of this country again? Will we ever feel as though we are part of the political process? Will we ever be able to look at some sneering loon with a blue flag and not wish bowel cancer on them? For myself, I am not sure.

a reply to: ScepticScot

Id actually take being bombed over Brexit , Brexit is a slow painful death , at least being under blitz you have good odds of a quick death!

a reply to: SprocketUK

this to me is obvious that the system doesnt work and should be dismantled , become a new democracy with a new constitution to protect the people and our planet
and sort out all these corporations and banks
sort out all the politicians who seek to gain !

If we are going to be sovereign its all or nothing !

Why continue to be represented by party politics , no one is having a #ing party anyways its always doom and gloom !

so it fails on two points!

A: doesnt work for the people and isnt fit for purpose , B: never has any kind of party , and no one can laugh , and no decent music is ever played in parliament

a reply to: sapien82


Cant say I disagree

If one good thing comes out of this mess it will be the number of people that wake up to the sham that is our form of democracy.

Time for something better.

a reply to: SprocketUK

I firmly believe we need to seize the moment and use Brexit as an opportunity to effect real change here in the UK.

To do this we need to put past differences behind us and concentrate on moving forward, together.

Being on the side of 'the winner' I suppose its easy to say that but I honestly believe that if the UK had voted to Remain I would have respected the result.

One thing is certain - we can not allow things to stay the same.
Regardless of Brexit its obvious that we need a shake up of things and our current political system is simply no longer fit for purpose.
The political elites need at least a literal rocket up their arses, preferably a bomb under Parliament and a complete overhaul and reform of our electoral and parliamentary procedures.

For this to happen we need the support and active assistance of all across the social and political divides.

a reply to: Freeborn


Dead right. We all have instant comms now across the country. I don't think these days there is any need to have a group of people to "represent us"

Direct democracy is where it is at.

a reply to: SprocketUK
I bet if you were to poll the UK you'd find that the majority have no faith in government to pull us through brexit
and so we should completely withdraw from the EU and completely dismantle the Uk and build it back from the ground up
England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland , sovereign nations all within a democratic peoples union !

originally posted by: SprocketUK
a reply to: Freeborn


Dead right. We all have instant comms now across the country. I don't think these days there is any need to have a group of people to "represent us"

Direct democracy is where it is at.

No, direct democracy is a terrible idea. It may grate but the fact is that most people do not understand a lot of issues - that isn't to say that people are thick (and i include myself here), more that we have specific areas of expertise. Just imagine that something that you rely on is being decided by a population that doesn't understand what they are deciding - would that leave you comfortable?

As we see every single friggin week, people change their minds based on the last thing they heard - you can't run a nation like that. Nations require long term goals, not short term gratification.

a reply to: sapien82

Not a bad plan at all.

Have they successfully divided us already to stop it happening though?

originally posted by: Flavian

originally posted by: SprocketUK
a reply to: Freeborn


Dead right. We all have instant comms now across the country. I don't think these days there is any need to have a group of people to "represent us"

Direct democracy is where it is at.

No, direct democracy is a terrible idea. It may grate but the fact is that most people do not understand a lot of issues - that isn't to say that people are thick (and i include myself here), more that we have specific areas of expertise. Just imagine that something that you rely on is being decided by a population that doesn't understand what they are deciding - would that leave you comfortable?

As we see every single friggin week, people change their minds based on the last thing they heard - you can't run a nation like that. Nations require long term goals, not short term gratification.

I don't buy that at all.
Similar arguments were used to stop working classes voting, to stop women voting.

A consensus of people is remarkably good at finding a solution to pretty much any problem, given the chance.

a reply to: SprocketUK

If one good thing comes out of this mess it will be the number of people that wake up to the sham that is our form of democracy.

Like how one Country, England can rule over and overrule another, Scotland and continually steal its wealth. That kind of Democracy?

There is no such a thing as democracy, The media controls the masses. Why do you think the BBC and Murdock Rothermere etc cosy up to those in power and vise versa? They are simply partners in crime.

They have the working classes blaming the poor and immigrants for all the countries ills and somehow those in charge who cause the #ing mess seem to never be brought to justice. They use the same tactics to control the population as the dictators we are taught to despise.

Once the Oil and Gas has run out Scotland will be independent. The Westminster Government, the media and a manipulated English voting public will make sure of it.

We either take what's rightfully ours back now or our children's future will be very bleak indeed.

a reply to: SprocketUK

Have to agree to disagree here mate. I know a fair few people that struggle with the basics of politics, never mind the intricacies of intertwined macro economic policy. Your proposal (which would be brilliant in Utopia) would necessitate people like that having a say in the final outcome, a prospect that fills me with dread.

originally posted by: SprocketUK

Are we now going to become a country forever divided between remainers and leavers?

Divide and rule - so simple, so effective and on the up, all over the world.

For the good of the country, I think the only sensible course would be to leave properly, remainers will get over losing the vote, maybe in 20 years they might enjoy being out or at least drum up support for a referendum on joining...

Some of those remainers who by dint of their youth and the dumbed down education they received via the national curriculum, will perhaps still by alive to thank the leavers for saving them from enforced conscription into the EU 'super-army'?

a reply to: Flavian

i think we elect professionals in every field to assist government , like civic duty that if you are a professor or doctor of a subject such as economics , environment, health , education etc then you do your civic duty and are elected to the board for a term and advise on issues !
and we rotate it continually always refreshing the pool of expertise

a reply to: sapien82

that if you are a professor or doctor of a subject such as economics , environment, health , education etc then you do your civic duty and are elected to the board for a term and advise on issues

Like a sort of Government advisor? I'm not so sure that's an entirely new concept.

a reply to: Soloprotocol
Good luck with that fella, y'all voted to stay in the UK in a free vote.
I'm happy for you to leave to be honest, you are net benefits of UK budget, not net contributors.
My region is a net contributor with foreign tourists...yet we don't whinge like you rabid Scots.
Still as much poverty here but you wouldn't think so because only the Scots whinge so loudly.
You are a joke fella, a whinging Scot joke lol.

a reply to: teapot

Some of those remainers who by dint of their youth and the dumbed down education they received via the national curriculum, will perhaps still by alive to thank the leavers for saving them from enforced conscription into the EU 'super-army'?

Mentally constipated.

a reply to: CornishCeltGuy

you are net benefits of UK budget

Ok, Show me the Numbers. How much do we cost Little England per week. Let's have those figures you keep banging on about. I won't hold my breath.

a reply to: Soloprotocol

Scotland had a vote on devolution, they voted not to. Are you suggesting that the majority of your fellow Scots who voted to stay are idiots?

I just wish that we English could have voted. Might have changed the result.