Let's Have A Nuts And Bolts UFO Discussion

originally posted by: BASSPLYR
a reply to: pigsy2400

steering in a direction in this thread. trying to get people to think about alternatives to warping space and to understand that it's not gravity you need to be defying and that anti gravity, wormholes, negative energy or even zero point energy isn't necessarily how theyre doing the things they see them doing.

I think this is a fair point to make. Just take a step back and look at what we're trying to do here. We're trying to figure out the mechanics of how an advanced technology works, and none of us really even know what they're using, which would seem to me to be an essential starting point to even begin to try to determine how it works.

I see a lot of comparisons to "well if you showed a caveman [insert some modern technology]", but you really don't have to go back that far. The electron was discovered in 1897. A lot of the technology we have today was unfathomable to the average person back then. I've read that some audiences found demonstrations of the Tesla coil to be frightening and many people assumed it was dangerous. On the other hand, some of our technology had been conceived well before the electron was discovered, but of course couldn't be built because they lacked the scientific knowhow. Today, we can conceive of some future technologies, but we can't explain how it works and actually build it without some key underlying principles that have yet to be discovered. Meanwhile you have people who scoff at any mention of these technologies like the physics we know today is the endpoint of science.

The existence of the graviton is debated. So was the existence of the electron before it was experimentally verified. So was the existence of the atom. If the graviton is real, if and when it is discovered that will obviously change some of our understanding of physics. If we learn how to manipulate it the way we've learned how to manipulate the electron, it may make possible all kinds of amazing technologies that we can't even imagine right now, or at least find implausible.

We just recently discovered the Higgs boson. In the coming years, who knows what's possible with that. Many of the problems with interstellar travel center around the problem of accelerating any significant mass to speeds that make such travel practical. The Higgs has to do with why some particles have mass and some don't. It's not hard to imagine there could be a way to control that mechanism, someday perhaps as easy as we find it today to generate an electrical or magnetic field.

Be skeptical, but keep your mind open too.

a reply to: Kandinsky
Thanks for the interesting thoughts here, Kandinsky. The Rogue River sighting is interesting, I suppose it's hard to say what it was. A couple of fairly skilled observers there who seemed convinced that what they were seeing was at least something very special, perhaps even otherworldly. I'm not sure what to think. Perhaps a black project, perhaps an ET craft, perhaps a convincing spoof, perhaps a radar kite(the official explanation, which seems unlikely, though not impossible I suppose).

a reply to: Xtrozero
Space exploring robots and AI's? Perhaps. It would seem like the thing to do by today's standards, though I suspect the technology will surpass that notion in the future. We don't know what breakthroughs are lurking around the corner for humanity(or already in existence and being kept secret).

a reply to: nOraKat
Lazar's story is interesting, but I'm not ready to jump on the bandwagon as to the rogue science in play he has reported on. I'm not saying he's wrong, but I'm not sure he's right either. I'm content to wait and see, as the nuclear scientific equipment required to test his hypotheses are beyond my reach at this time, and wouldn't be at the top of my list if I did have greater capability.

If we believe his story, I still sense a dupe there. I was kind of reluctant to reply to your post because it takes us into a control loop type discussion. I don't really care to debate the veracity of his tale, especially in this thread. The alien he saw he even says he thought might have been a fake. We don't know that the science he was fed as part of his brief job there was just bunk science fed to him to support the spoof. He's told what he allegedly knows, which is really not a lot. It wouldn't have been hard to dupe him if you look at the circumstances, if they thought he might leak the info eventually. For all we know there were other Lazar's, and this guy was just the first one to talk.

I honestly wouldn't know for sure either way. Maybe he was exactly right, and we just haven't discovered the isotope of 115 that was being used there. I suppose it's possible, but I am skeptical.

a reply to: SeekAnswers

a reply to: stormcell

I agree, matter/anti-matter production and reactions hold real promise for high speed space propulsion. I may do some writing on it later in the thread, if anyone else wants to present the Alcubierre info or other general anti-matter propulsion links or information it wouldn't hurt my feelings any. Thanks for bringing it up guys.

a reply to: Erno86

Interesting posts on black hole propulsion, thanks for sharing with us Erno. I haven't taken a closer look yet at the links you posted, so I can't offer much commentary of a scientific nature. I wanted to thank you for chipping in and sharing the ideas though. I'll be sure to get back to you with my thoughts once I've had a better look at the info.

a reply to: Ghostsinthefog
Electrical interference as a sensor net. That's an interesting thought. Perhaps. Electronic warfare is a big deal in terms of modern warfare, so whether or not the equipment is being used that way, we certainly have lots of that type of equipment, some of which could be used in that fashion.

a reply to: BASSPLYR
Yes, the JP Aerospace project was what I was referring to when I wrote of large balloons being used as a piggyback for space launches. This was suggested as a likely method of secret space launches in the astroflap too as I recall. "They" probably have at least a few high atmosphere floating cities hanging out up there using this and other technologies. Watch that first step!

a reply to: TEOTWAWKIAIFF
I wanted to thank you for adding your input to this thread. I know you do a lot of tech threads, and I've enjoyed reading them. Feel free to quote or link some of your work if you think it fits the topic. I'm sure some of it does, and you certainly wouldn't hurt my feelings by doing so.

There is something I have always wondered.

We know what Earth is made of. And the moon, and Mars and, by various means of observation, the rest of our solar system. We have collected objects that have rained down upon the Earth and analyzed them as well. And its all pretty much the same stuff - so to speak.

My belief is that there are other elements out there. Other materials that can be used to make paper thin flexible metal with the strength of inch thick titanium. Or, God willing, even Star Trek IV's transparent aluminum. :-)

If we can allow ourselves the luxury of believing that something exists without our knowledge of it, then answers to questions currently unanswerable begin to present themselves. Yes, it is assumption. But any scientist will tell you that everything is assumption until its not.

a reply to: Vroomfondel

There are no holes in the table of elements. Not sure what you think that we are missing.

The closest thing to transparent aluminium is aluminium oxynitride, a transparent ceramic.

a reply to: Ghostsinthefog

You may be right, have you seen the Russian meteor that appeared to be taken out by a ufo?

I think the LTA or "neutral buoyancy" concept is extremely interesting. Especially when you think about the recent innovations in ultra strong and light materials.

And it is, to me at least, very improbable that ufo's are just one thing.

It can be many things.

And we, as humans, are limited by our senses. How are we to know if it is something physical pretending to be something else, or the other way around? We simply have no way to tell, especially since we have a very rudimentary understanding of what "physical" even means.

And the senses can be fooled.

Good thread.

BT

originally posted by: Vroomfondel
My belief is that there are other elements out there.

Looking at the Periodic Table of Elements, it does seem to be a little asymmetrical. I've sometimes thought that, yes, there are other elements out there somewhere, but I figure that they're lurking in some associated dimension that we haven't discovered yet. Elements that have unknown component particles lurking at right angles to our own reality that keep them from being directly detected, so we'll have to discover them by inference.

I've tried translating the Periodic Table into more of a 3-D matrix to see if there are any obvious gaps, but I just don't have the background to do it correctly. And thinking in more than three of four dimensions gives me a headache. Oh, well. Maybe some kid will figure it out one of these days.

Well, it is certainly interesting to think about how alien technology would work. Such thinking could and has already led to new discoveries. As a side note; certainly the periodic table is bigger and more extensive then humanity has currently made. But it is also important to realise that hybrid materials artificially created play a big part in construction (both on Earth as well as elsewhere). Such hybrid materials are not part of the periodic table because they are composites made up from various base elements.

ships travelling in space have various layouts in their engines as well as their construction in general....insert obligatory "probably" here since I could not possibly have alien knowledge. *Cough*

But lets throttle back and re-read that old classic of Frank Herbert 'Dune' where he makes a rather big point. If you are travelling at light speed you are travelling at the speed at which your eyes and sensors can perceive objects. So you can see the vast meteorite at the same moment it hits you when you travel at light speeds. Now Frank's solution for this was drugs (called spice) that gave foresight and well it was written in 1965 originally so that sci-fi solution for that time is kind of logical. But in reality you generally have to think around the travel at light speed.
Using curled up dimensions and quantum entanglement you get pretty far. It helps if you have a few miniature suns (fusion cores) in you vessel, let's say four of em; Two as back-up for failure of the other two. Each one of the cores neatly tucked away in their own shielded chambers. Basically you would need a rapid particle canon that launches a charged ion at high speed in a perfectly spherical saturated neutrino orb to start a chain reaction. Then you need to have a (round) containment chamber made of high heat and pressure resistant plates that convey the pressure of the sun (core) and conduct the heat. Behind that plated containment chamber is a high resistant fiber mesh to contain the plates construction followed by an electrolytic gel that becomes charged as a result of the heat and pressure and then produces a current as a result of it. Past the gel you would have a thick outer layer that stops residual radiation of the core (turns out that cosmic radiation is not healthy for organic life). Anyways; you then put a collector in the gel that conducts the current outside the core and into a power converter and capacitor. Presto; power for your spaceship.
There is a downside since you can't actually practically shut down the sun (core)...well.... it IS possible just not easy enough. So in case of a breach you have basically two safety procedures. A cascading breach means its not yet critical, but its gonna be; in that case you need to eject the core. so you can replace it later on. Ejecting one core is no real issue even without back-up cores if you got another one.
The second scenario is a core-breach that has progressed in which case you are too late to eject the core. That is why such cores are in separate chambers. If a core has progressed into a breach the chamber (a literal physical able to walk in chamber) will contain the miniature sun. Needless to say that the chamber can't be used as long as the sun is there. A lucky side-note of such a breach is that the sun will run quickly out of energy (let's say six Earth months?) and slowly dissipates.
To start the core you need another power-source. Guessing humanity will use a fissure core to start their fusion cores when it get's to it. Their are other ways like high yield capacitors that can store and release energy at the rate of a fissure core. But you need special material to do that and looking at you period table you haven't discovered it yet so that might not yet be an option.

I could tell about the armour of a spaceship but I only know warship armour cause...well..if you ain't building civilian, scientific or commercial ships as a species you only know the other one.

I'm thoroughly enjoying this thread, I hope you are too. For my next installment, TheBadCabbie's theories on The Philadelphia Experiment.

I think this was an experiment creating relativistic effects 'at rest', as it were. By at rest, I mean at rest in the here and now, whatever relative frame that might be. Perhaps I should explain a little more. It's not really accurate to say at rest, because is anything ever truly at rest?

The pet rock on your desk appears to be at rest, but it's really not. It's only at rest relative to its surroundings. It, like you and the rest of your immediate surroundings, is heaving slightly with the motions of the earth's crust, rotating with the earth, revolving around the sun with the earth, which in turn is revolving around the galaxy with the rest of the solar system, which is in turn moving through the universe with the rest of the galaxy. I'm not sure that anything is truly at rest in our universe.

When we speak of relative effects then, they only happen in exactly that way in relation to our relative frame of reference. If time slows down for us as we travel faster and stops when we hit the speed of light, what would happen if we could truly be at rest? Would time then speed up, and we come back after a year of resting to find that only ten minutes have passed here? Shouldn't it speed up infinitely, as the relative opposite of time stopping when we reach the speed of light? If that is the case, then an infinite amount of time passed by an object at complete actual rest should pass for it in its frame with no time at all passing for us in our frame of reference relative to it, right? Can an object at complete actual rest even exist then?

My point is that our perception of relativity is colored by our frame of reference, which doesn't actually offer a proper extreme low speed of being completely at rest as a starting point. We don't know what happens at that extreme, we've never been there. I'm not sure that we can get there, or that we would even know we were there if we accidentally were at rest for a brief moment. We have plenty to learn about relativity then, in my opinion.

Bearing that in mind, relativistic effects at rest. Oh sure, radio waves bounce off each other, each traveling at the speed of light, or almost. What if we saturated a local area with electromagnetic radiation though, the emanations aimed at each other to collide head on and infused with a large amount of intensity? We try to create a 'light speed' type of environment, with all of it's weird effects, while 'at rest'? Whether this could be done with a set of coils that are stationary or would require moving parts I don't know. I always picture it as a pair of counter-rotating coils, one atop the other, but I don't know that that is how it needs to be done. I might have a physicist or two screaming at their computer screens about how wrong I am right about now, but that doesn't concern me really.

Anyhow, so we've got speed of light relativistic effects 'at rest' now, on the deck of the Philly. Supposedly time stops, we all have infinite mass now, we have flattened to true two dimensionality, and we have changed from matter into energy, but we're still at rest relative to our frame of reference. I think some would say we would cease to exist at this point. Maybe all that stuff isn't what actually happens here, but something else. Maybe this is the pathway to dimensional travel. I don't know this for fact, but if true it explains what happened to the Philadelphia during that experiment. They got into the dimensional shift state but had no means of navigating it once they got there, so forward time travel, ship vanishes and reappears, dudes are melted through the deck, weird toroid shaped energy field shoots through the ship right before it vanishes, etc., etc.

How would you navigate through a dimensional shift like that? I wouldn't know, haven't been there yet. I know Bealik and the other missing sailors were supposedly pulled out of the ether into the future by thought anchors, so perhaps thought plays a critical role, I'm not sure though. Where does up take you? To the right? To the left? I don't know. Anyhow, this is my theory on what they did back there. Master this technology, and folding space should be elementary. If this is how it works, you can bet that's how ET is usually getting here.

a reply to: TheBadCabbie

although you got it all wrong regarding the Philadelphia experiment its something you should look further into.

I typed out a huge PM for you regarding it that would help you out a lot. just debating on whether to send it.

but I like that you brought that experiment up. it wasn't to test what they claim and what they discovered has been kept quiet for a long time now. and the public stories about it are all BS. all of them. but it's something important to look deeper into.

keep going

other than that sorry I've been awol from this thread for a week or so I've been travelling. I plan on touching on several posters comments who made great posts with good conversational topics to expand on.

originally posted by: Kandinsky
a reply to: TheBadCabbie
Our militaries don't send piloted vehicles to bomb the ME, do they? No. They send remotely controlled drones and it makes sense that any advanced tech would act similarly.

That is one way to view the issue.

However our military also put a man on the moon. They could have sent a drone instead and gotten all the pictures they wanted ... But there was a drive to set foot on the thing not just see it up close.

Don't even believe in antimatter and believe is all mislabeling workings of a universe they don't understand or won't come clean on.

Ufo's, the higher level ones are not really nuts and bolts the way we think. Walls change, openings occur out of nothing and seal up, rooms disappear, the energy they're made from isn't even from our dimension.

The nuts and bolts kind probably have differing technologies, and implosion, cavitation, hydrogen, fusion, not radiating but clean is most likely. Ufo's have been seen near water frequently. Antigravity, sound/hz. I believe the keep it simple, clean. Ability to phase, jump dimensions and open portals is big.

a reply to: BASSPLYR

I've been wondering what your thoughts were about that legend. A Kerrfuffle that inspired some new ideas perhaps?

a reply to: Unity_99

sounds like you're not sure what antimatter is. antimatter is real it's just an electron with a positive instead of negative charge. (there are anti-particles to most if not all charged particles. ) heck they can even create in a lab antimatter "atom" similar to hydrogen (although much lighter cause its a mutually orbiting electron and positron) called positronium. PET scan machines in hospitals use antimatter what do you think the P stands for. Positron Emission Tomography. kids can track antimatter in school with cloud chambers. antimatters real.

originally posted by: framedragged
a reply to: BASSPLYR

I've been wondering what your thoughts were about that legend. A Kerrfuffle that inspired some new ideas perhaps?

something happened with the value for C. and it's implications were huge and covered up. and it lead to a lot of other things.

C value?
With Radar experiments in the early days a lot of it was "hey lets see what happens when we do this"...
When things started to be understood then they could see applications..
Radar,radio,light,magnetic forces,radiation,electricity and Sonar all travel in waves..Control them and focus them and things happen.

a reply to: Blackfinger
C as in the value for the speed of light in a vacuum

originally posted by: BASSPLYR
a reply to: Unity_99

sounds like you're not sure what antimatter is. antimatter is real it's just an electron with a positive instead of negative charge. (there are anti-particles to most if not all charged particles. ) heck they can even create in a lab antimatter "atom" similar to hydrogen (although much lighter cause its a mutually orbiting electron and positron) called positronium. PET scan machines in hospitals use antimatter what do you think the P stands for. Positron Emission Tomography. kids can track antimatter in school with cloud chambers. antimatters real.

Yes I know, but we're not really in particles at all, it's all waves, electric magnetic universe. So if you manipulate the illusionary particle, that observation emerged from the waves, you could create such a thing, but there is no actual antimatter.

What exists is All of Everything, and what we perceive is a tiny portion of the energy, ie channel 97.5 FM out of infinite channels, that's what our perceived bodies limit us to.

Empty space, its not empty. When they measured a tiny portion it contained infinite energy.

Their science is wrong. Limited to finite concepts.