Is the Su-57 project effectively toast?

a reply to: Blackfinger

If they followed what we do, the Russians would have already tested the engine on the ground before integrating it with the Su-57.

It's very clear that something went wrong. IMO.

Im thinking performance issues..Its not putting out the power its supposed to.

a reply to: Blackfinger

Probably. That's often the case, but they ought to have seen that on the ground first though.

a reply to: anzha
Sometimes yes.Computer modelling can tell you so much and ground runs are out of the aircraft.When the plane is in the air variables such as intake designs and airframe inconsistencies rear there heads..Drag and weight is the evil of thrust and lift.

a reply to: Blackfinger

alert5.com...

Indians want 126 F-35As.

Given the FGFA was projected to have a $100 million per bird cost and India already wants to ditch the Su-57, I'd say the Su-57 may be in dire trouble.

a reply to: anzha

But.....but.....but.....Russia or something.

a reply to: Zaphod58

But but but the F-35A is cheaper...

....and works

originally posted by: anzha
a reply to: Blackfinger

If they followed what we do, the Russians would have already tested the engine on the ground before integrating it with the Su-57.

It's very clear that something went wrong. IMO.

What gives you the impression they never ground tested the engine? It's been ground tested for years. Something's you can only really learn in the air. Duct airflow is still largely voodoo, and it's difficult to tell how the combination of intake and engine is going to react to adverse airflow (yaw/aoa).

Given the FGFA was projected to have a $100 million per bird cost and India already wants to ditch the Su-57, I'd say the Su-57 may be in dire trouble.

It was in trouble already. They are massively over budget and behind schedule. Then after they got India to pile in a little more capital they suddenly asked for another 7B to continue the arrangement. India understandably is a bit put off. That doesn't mean it's dead. The whole program is only 17 years old. Took ten years to go from program start to a preproduction model. They are still working out the kinks.
Compare that to the F-35 whose origin dates from CALF/JAST studies started in 1992! When CALF and JAST combined three years later to form JSF, LM put out the X-35 as a demonstrator in eight years from the paper study genesis. Another 6 years to get a preproduction in the air. Another nine, ten (and a not even done yet) years to service introduction.

So it's hardly surprising the Russians aren't in full scale production. They're well ahead of the curve compared to the F-35 though. The real questions are can they afford to keep up development and at what pace.

a reply to: RadioRobert

Regarding timelines, I don't think including CALF/JAST is fair, since we are unsure of the lineage of the Su-57. And of course, thinking about 5th generation aircraft has its roots, both american and russian, back in the 1980s.

I do like the incremental approach however, much in the Su-57 is from the Su-35S. Faster iterations are a good thing. Imagine if we had Block III Super Hornet 10 years ago, with the initial F-35 simply using its avionics (and perhaps engines even though I know this isn't possible due to STOVL and/or other wants for a single engine).

sputniknews.com...

Contracts still not signed for the first 12. Little tough to make deliveries if there are no contracts.

Deliveries in 2019 would be a serious challenge, I would think, even if they did sign the contract today.

Or am I wrong?

a reply to: anzha

Supposedly, the Russians signed the contract. This is for the first 12 fighters. However, it ought to be noted the new engine will NOT be in these fighters. In fact, the soonest, the Russians have stated, the new engine will go into the aircraft will be 2023. And that's predicated on the current flight test program being smooth and without glitch. It could be potentially much later.

www.ainonline.com...

MiG-31 is the first fighter that introduced phased array radar. Su-35 is the first fighter that introduced 3D thrust vectoring engines. Su-57 is the first fighter that introduced side mounted radars. Unlike Chinese who copied F-35 right down to the bolt, Russians are innovative when it comes to aerospace.

Russians put the first satellite in orbit, made the first space suit, put the first man in orbit, did the first space walk, put the first lander on another planet, put the first remote controlled rover on the moon, put the first space station in orbit, put the first modular space station in orbit.

Russian aerospace is still second to none.

While Su-57 may not be as stealthy as F-22 from the back, it's irrelevant. Super powers don't fight each other these days. The only use Su-57 has is bombing sandal wearing Arabs who have nothing.

Early batches of F-15E used engines of F-15C. Only later batches of F-15E uses the more powerful engines found on F-15K and F-15SG. Early batches of Su-57 uses engines of Su-35. Only later batches of Su-57 uses the more powerful engines.

originally posted by: anzha
a reply to: Zaphod58

But but but the F-35A is cheaper...

F-35 is JSF Joined Strike Fighter. F-35 is a strike fighter, same type as su-34. F-35 is not a multi role fighter like Su-57. F-35 is built with less stealth in mind than F-22 and is not built to be fast and maneuverable. In terms of type, F-35 and Su-34 and F-15E are the same, strike fighter.

Su-57 is not a Flanker like Su-35 and Su-34. It's a completely new design with a completely new air frame. It has extensive RCS reduction, AESA radars, HMD, internal weapons bays. It's 5th generation. Of course Russia air force will buy it. America and Russia will never fight war with each other. America has election once a year or so. War kills election chances. That's why Su-57 will never be used against American planes. Su-57 is used in anti terrorism against people who have nothing except things like AK-47 and RPG-7. Su-57 is a bomb truck. Su-57 serves its role well.

Hi Guys and Girls,

According to Business Insider the SU-57 is done with, mass production cancelled and production stopping at 12 examples:

uk.businessinsider.com...

Seems a pitty that the work will be wasted but points to the ongoing issues within the Russian procurement depts, so will Russia will have to depend on massive number over quality again.

Kind regards

RIch

Nice to see the mods are on top of the latest Russian troll epidemic. This sh*t is starting to go beyond the amusing to out of hand fast.

"This is harder and more expensive than we anticipated. We don't have an engine ready. Why mass produce an expensive, underpowered 5th gen when our budget is already stretched thin? We'll continue LRIP with another batch of 12 to continue the test program until it we're ready" .

Not exactly the same as cancelled.

a reply to: RadioRobert

Except an interesting bit that the Russians are stating. (take with grain of salt, of course).

They are already - they say - testing 6th gen fighter components on the Su-57. One is supposedly the "photonic radar." They are stating their 6th gen baseline fighter will be unmanned and only optionally piloted. Meaning, I think, the aircraft will be optionally manned, but will mostly be used in as a UCAV.

That said, with the slip of the Su-57 and the beginnings of already developing the next gen fighter, I have to wonder if the Su-57 might end up becoming the next Su-47. A testbed, albeit a greatly expanded one, but not necessarily a production fighter. Given the Indian retreat from the FGFA (and that may be temporary! They have their factions, too), the Russians may not be able to afford the Su-57 as originally envisioned.

If that's the case, then from the POV of the Su-57 being a frontline fighter, the project would be toast.