Trump should respond to North Korea's ICBM launch

originally posted by: JBurns
EDIT: Just looked at my posts, seems I did forget to include the Pueblo which is a mistake on my part. Thanks for pointing that out though

Sure, let's go retaliate 50 years later. Smart strategy.

a reply to: intrptr


We're not occupying anything. We're present at the request and permission of the sovereign and legitimate SK government. What we do on our territory/territory of our allies is our business and not NK's. Anything they've done in response is aggression, including the murder/torture of US soldiers and sailors.

Those who apologize and make excuses for dictators are sick.

You failed in your attempt to justify NK's aggression/crimes, however you refused to address the major human rights abuses in their own country

Why do most of their people live on the streets/in huts? Why are they starving? Why do they face imprisonment/execution for not bowing to Kim or kissing his family's ***? How about AA gun executions? Prison camps for watching SK/Western media/entertainment? Leaving the country punishable by death? In fact, everything is punishable by death because they have kangaroo courts. They have no healthcare, no standard of education, no real grocery stores, nothing that the modern world considers indispensible. There are no vehicles, no shopping malls or public venues (unless it has something to do directly with the Kim cult)

originally posted by: JBurns
a reply to: bluemooone2


You mean perhaps Kim Jong-un could stop starving the populace?

All he has to do is step down, and abolish their ineffective communist dictatorship. Normalizing the nation and reunifying under capitalism/democracy with SK would solve their food/money/health/housing/job/safety problems.

NK is long overdue for a revolution.

I agree, but Kim will not step down and China wouldn't allow a revolution.

Especially if the aftermath involves a reunification of North and South Korea, with the West as its ally.

China won't let that happen.

I wish the people of North Korea were free from that stinking tyrant, but they are not. Kim is dragging all of his people down with him.

originally posted by: JBurns
a reply to: odzeandennz

EDIT: Forgot to include two of the most important examples of unchecked NK aggression and murder. Thanks AM for pointing this out

82 American sailors were captured on the USS Pueblo, when NK seized it from international waters. They were tortured and treated like animals, which alone should earn Kim a noose with his name on it. Also in 1976 10 American soldiers were murdered by NK savages with axes, for simply trimming a tree the NK cultists said was planted by one of the Kim dictators.

Did you forget the time they shelled a SK island? How about mined a SK waterway and killed SK sailors? What about the citizens they have kidnapped, from SK and around the world? Or their execution/starvation and systematic oppression of 10s of millions of people?

You do realize Kim is a despot war criminal, right? He is a perpetual human and civil rights abuser, and must be stopped. NK having nuclear weapons is far worse than any half-baked terrorist group. Unlike terrorist groups, NK now has the means to vector that weapon to anywhere in the world - unlike terror groups who are basically limited to port delivery for nuclear weapons and INDs.

Amen.

a reply to: AugustusMasonicus


Didn't say anything about retaliating. I did say they earned it, but the retaliation over those incidents should've occurred immediately. Yes, the past sucks. But moving on to today, their possession of WMDs is not acceptable and especially not nuclear weapons.

My issue is entirely the WMDs, which can now impact our country. Waiting to disarm and depose Kim will only increase that stockpile, magnifying our risk. Here and now we have the ability to shoot down most if not all of those unproven missiles. Yes, people will die. That is a given. However, less people will die if we act now instead of 1, 5 or 10 years down the road.

Our window to end this threat is rapidly closing, and none of us can afford for that to happen.

The incidents I listed are simply a Casus belli for our posturing/response, as we don't really need one to strike. The WMDs alone justify military action, and deposition of communist NK. Since we are still at war: no resolutions are required, no immediate/imminent threat is required, no congressional approval required.

a reply to: dianajune

Agreed, dianajune

China is going to have a role in NK's future, but I don't believe Kim does. I personally have no issue with China assuming control of NK. At least their brand of communism has been updated to modern standards, and Chinese states (like Hong-kong for instance) enjoy significant autonomy and liberty. It isn't perfect, but at least they live modern and somewhat healthy lives - for a bunch of socialists/communists.

If China took NK, we'd have no reason to be in SK either - since standard nuclear deterrence would assume that role.

a reply to: JBurns

We're not occupying anything. We're present at the request and permission of the sovereign and legitimate SK government.

Empires always say stuff like that.

"They love us". Yah right, like you would feel the same if your countries borders were threatened by a known hostile super power.

originally posted by: JBurns
a reply to: AugustusMasonicus


Didn't say anything about retaliating. I did say they earned it, but the retaliation over those incidents should've occurred immediately. Yes, the past sucks. But moving on to today, their possession of WMDs is not acceptable and especially not nuclear weapons.

My issue is entirely the WMDs, which can now impact our country. Waiting to disarm and depose Kim will only increase that stockpile, magnifying our risk. Here and now we have the ability to shoot down most if not all of those unproven missiles. Yes, people will die. That is a given. However, less people will die if we act now instead of 1, 5 or 10 years down the road.

Our window to end this threat is rapidly closing, and none of us can afford for that to happen.

The incidents I listed are simply a Casus belli for our posturing/response, as we don't really need one to strike. The WMDs alone justify military action, and deposition of communist NK. Since we are still at war: no resolutions are required, no immediate/imminent threat is required, no congressional approval required.

I couldn't have said it better. The longer we wait to act, the worse outcome we will have.

That's why I find it hard to understand Trump's desire for just sanctions. It's almost as if he's asking for the US to be attacked.

We are still at war with NK, so you are correct. Congressional approval for a military response is not required.

I do believe the threat is imminent.

I do believe that the Trump Administration will wait until at least one missile is sent not as a test, but as a weapon, regardless of who is on the receiving end (whether it will be SK, Japan, Guam, etc).

By then it will be too late.

originally posted by: intrptr

originally posted by: pavil

originally posted by: intrptr

originally posted by: Tempter

originally posted by: intrptr

originally posted by: Tempter

Either we are serious about stopping this guy from launching nuclear missiles or we're really not.

Korea hasn't launched any nuclear missiles.
On the other hand the uS has THADD ballistic missile installations on the Peninsula, carrier groups, bombers and troops running 'exercises' threatening them every day.

Besides, it isn't about Korea, its about containment and isolation of China.

Does it bother you we are in the better position militarily? They are our enemy, as defined by them. And no, this isn't about China as much as you think. NK is a legit threat.

lil teeny Korea a threat to the mighty US empire?

Love the dichotomy, whichever hypocrisy suits you.

When they have ICBM capable of reaching all of the U.S. and nuclear warheads for them, yes.

Thats what I mean. When it suits the warmongers they're the supposed threat again. Pretense for war, the evil dictator with his puny nuclear WMD force hasn't shot anyone.

The real threat is to US dominance of the region. Unjust US military dominance of the Eastern Pacific far from the continental US where we have no business throwing our weight around.

But thats not how bullies talk, bullies blame their victims for what they are about to do to them, need an excuse to use as pretext, something the uS Bully has used (WMD and evil dictators) over and over.

How stupid you think people are? How stupid are you?

Nuclear weapons in the hands a unpredictable leader like Lil Kim was bad enough. Now that they have ICBMs and have small enough nukes to put on them is a line that cannot stand. Sorry. Its going to get someone or lots of people killed. He crossed that threshold, I doubt any nation defends NK and their actions anymore.

We've let this problem fester for decades and multiple Presidents from BOTH parties.....did anyone think it would turn out roses? It sucks that the UN is so ineffective dealing with this issue.

Im not a warmonger, but I'm a realist. This will not end well. We should exhaust every other means before Military ones. I see no indication that anything will change NK's course on this.
I'd prefer China take care of this, especially if they want to be a Superpower. China can prevent hundreds of thousands of people being killed.

I'd prefer this to end peacefully, but it needs to end, and soon.

a reply to: pavil

Nuclear weapons in the hands a unpredictable leader like Lil Kim was bad enough.

Us has actually used them, continues to use depleted uranium munitions, US is the one threatening them with armies, navies and missiles on their border, not the other way round.

Everytime I come here and read the right wing nut jobs replies I feel like I have lost at least 5 iq points.

originally posted by: intrptr
a reply to: pavil

Nuclear weapons in the hands a unpredictable leader like Lil Kim was bad enough.

Us has actually used them, continues to use depleted uranium munitions, US is the one threatening them with armies, navies and missiles on their border, not the other way round.

I get that we dont agree. Are you actually defending NK actions here? Most of the World doesn't. Should every country have ICBMs and nuclear weapons?

a reply to: intrptr


So that excuses extreme human rights abuses against their own people and genocide? Is it OK that millions of the NK populace go without food, shelter, medical care, education, meaningful careers, the right to self determination? Or that NK's residents are subject to arrest for minor offenses, such as not properly praising the supreme-lord-dictator? How about death penalties for not being sad enough during a state dictated period of sadness? What about prison camps and torture? The people of NK can't even chose their own religion - unless it is State religion, which everyone is required to follow devoutly, again.. or else.

Now lets take a look at the modern conveniences they are missing out on. They don't have climate controlled anything (except KJU's dicator palace, of course), the public isn't allowed to drive or leave the country for any reason, they can't pursue their interests or passions. Not to mention the fact that the dictator and his State select everything in your life for you: your occupation, your clothing, your hair style, your friends, your interests, your standing in society. There is no self motivation in NK - the only motivation is avoiding arbitrary punishment (including the death penalty) for non-crimes like practicing a religion of their choice, or speaking truth to power, or even for simply criticizing the state.

Lets not forget who started this whole mess, either. Kim is the one that started running his mouth and firing off missiles, and now he doesn't like the fact that the US won't back down like we've done for 30 years. Well too bad. We have permission from SK to conduct exercises and contribute to the defense of the 38th. The fact that Kim and a small group of his apologists (some here no less) don't like it is also too bad.

The USA doesn't play games, especially not with despots like KJU. If he continues his aggression, he will find out *exactly* what the term hostile superpower means. And oh boy is he not going to like it.

Tell me again who the bad guy is here? You can spin our involvement however you like, but it is legal. How do you explain their blatantly illegal human rights abuses? Their mass genocide and oppression of the NK populace?

a reply to: soundguy

Sigh. Good story.

Lets use terms like RWNJ/LWNJ to avoid actually looking at the facts and offering rebuttals. You have resorted to ridiculous and weak logical fallacies because you are unable to dispute a single point I have made.

Thank you for justifying and making my point, though.

a reply to: intrptr


We're allowed to be there. NK absolutely 100% started with the treats, posturing and bluster.

Since they're a weak little nation that we're still at war with, if they were so afraid of the big, bad superpower they should've kept their mouths shut. Until they started making threats, their minor number of nuclear weapons was an equally minor issue.

Kim's bloated mouth (compared to the typical skeletonized & starved populace) is what got them into this trouble. Now they get to find out what "superpower" means. In no scenario do they survive a U.S. led invasion of their mainland. Virtually everything of military or strategic importance can be vaporized before boots even touch the ground. At least 25% of their population is already "hostile" to their regime, therefore we could expect massive assistance provided we fed/equipped this populace. My bet is that this number is really closer to 90%, but that most remain silent out of fear of the stasi and other agents of regime tyranny.

Systematic, widespread and grave violations of human rights by NK - referred to the International Criminal Court

"The panel chairman Michael Kirby described some acts by stating that they resembled those committed by the Nazis."

"In many instances, the violations of human rights found by the commission constitute crimes against humanity."

On May 6, 2013, the United Nations Human Rights Council announced the appointment of Michael Kirby of Australia, Sonja Biserko of Serbia, and Marzuki Darusman of Indonesia as members of the United Nations Commission of Inquiry on Human Rights in the Democratic People's Republic of Korea.

[The] commission of inquiry will investigate the systematic, widespread and grave violations of human rights in the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea ... including the violation of the right to food, the violations associated with prison camps, torture and inhuman treatment, arbitrary detention, discrimination, violations of freedom of expression, violations of the right to life, violations of freedom of movement, and enforced disappearances, including in the form of abductions of nationals of other States, with a view to ensuring full accountability, in particular where these violations may amount to crimes against humanity.

On August 20, 2013, the commission began five days of public hearings at Yonsei University in Seoul, South Korea receiving testimony from defectors, and on August 29, 2013, in Japan from relatives of Japanese citizens abducted by North Korea in the 1970s and 1980s. North Korea describes the inquiry as "a political plot" and it has not given investigators access to the country. The UN panel interviewed witnesses in South Korea, Japan, and the UK, and it also conducted hearings in the U.S. on October 30 and 31, 2013. The commission said it has consistently asked North Korean representatives to take part in the public hearings and question witnesses.

On February 17, 2014, the panel published its findings in a 400-page report. The commission accused the North Korean government of being involved in systemic, widespread and gross human rights violations. The panel chairman Michael Kirby described some acts by stating that they resembled those committed by the Nazis.

In many instances, the violations of human rights found by the commission constitute crimes against humanity. These are not mere excesses of the State; they are essential components of a political system that has moved far from the ideals on which it claims to be founded. The gravity, scale and nature of these violations revealed a State that does not have any parallel in the contemporary world.

Roberta Cohen, joint chair of the Committee for Human Rights in North Korea, said it was now up to the world community to take action to protect those persecuted and bring the perpetrators to justice. The DPRK rejected the findings. In a statement it said the commission was "a product of politicization of human rights on the part of the EU and Japan, in alliance with the US hostile policy." On November 18, 2014, the UN voted in favor of a draft resolution to refer North Korea to the International Criminal Court for crimes against humanity.

"On November 18, 2014, the UN voted in favor of a draft resolution to refer North Korea to the International Criminal Court for crimes against humanity."

I think it is past time to bring these depots to justice - dead or alive. I prefer alive, since seeing Kim and his regime hauled before the Hague would be a clear warning to other despots and dictators (like Maduro).

en.wikipedia.org...

originally posted by: JBurns

The WMDs alone justify military action...

Under what treaty?

a reply to: AugustusMasonicus


Under the only justification we need: our own personal approval. We're already at war, so no treaty/resolution/congressional action required to resume tactical and strategic combat operations.

NK has even recently violated the armistice, giving us all the reason we need (we don't need a reason though) to tear it up and level Kim's compound at a time that is convenient to U.S.

a reply to: pavil

Are you actually defending NK actions here?

Couldn't agree with this statement/question more.

Amazing, isn't it? The same people who decry comparatively minor civil rights abuses in this country will apologize and ignore the flagrant, systematic and widespread crimes against humanity by their pet communist dictators. Apologists make me sick to my stomach.

They're implicitly saying the human beings living in NK don't matter as much as other people. By defending/excusing/apologizing for KJU, the apologists are active participants in NK's human rights abuses and crimes against humanity. They are guilty (in no small way) of abusing those people, just as the drones carrying out KJU's diktat.

Isn't that what they say here in the US, anyhow? The left says If you don't speak out against racism, you're an enabler racist. The left says If you don't stand up for Women's rights, you're an enabler of sexism. Well, if you don't oppose the crimes against humanity in NK, are you not guilty of enabling that as well? By their logic, of course you are. But I forgot, they have two sets of standards: one for themselves, and one for the rest of us.

As a side note, I think the leftists here need to figure out what their position is on civil rights/human rights/crimes against humanity. Attacking your own country while defending the dictators and tyrants doesn't lend any credibility to them either.

a reply to: JBurns

So, we are the policemen of the world?