Why the Dossier may be the most serious political scandal the US has ever seen.

a reply to: Damiel

No it definitely starts with a "S" The guy might not be a politician but is a heavy GOP backer .

a reply to: Grambler

Yes, it seems page was under surveillance from before. But much like Manafort, they had to apply for a new fisa warrant. Or do you think that all of the reports of the summer 2016 warrant on page are wrong?

Again, this isn't something I am just making up. The cnn article did claim that sources said the dossier was used for things like the fisa warrant.

That TPM link was actually pretty informative. I hadn't realized that there was a court document in the UK that outlined Steele's account of things (which I haven't finished reading yet). Okay, so in September, Steele sent something to an FBI contact. We don't know what was in it or what that agent did with it but I'll concede that Steele was sending information as early as the beginning of July. But you should also take note that according to Steele, *he* sent it his FBI contact not Perkins Coie, the DNC, the Clinton campaign, etc.

As for the CNN story, which seems by all accounts to be the origin of the claim that the dossier played *some* role in the FISA warrant for Carter Page:

This includes approval from the secret court that oversees the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA) to monitor the communications of Carter Page, two of the officials said. Last year, Page was identified by the Trump campaign as an adviser on national security.

Officials familiar with the process say even if the application to monitor Page included information from the dossier, it would only be after the FBI had corroborated the information through its own investigation. The officials would not say what or how much was corroborated.

If the dossier was just used for leads and the information presented to the FISC was corroborated by the FBI, then I think you'll have to agree that you're not left with much to find objectionable?

The point is, if this is true, do you agree it would be a big scandal.

It would really depend on the specifics. It's a rather unique proposition. What's the absolute worst case scenario here regarding the FISA warrant?

The DNC/Clinton campaign explicitly paid for the dossier to be created (uncertain but Mark Elias would know), the dossier was composed and given to the DNC/Clinton campaign (so far being denied), they DNC/Clinton campaign then gave it to the FBI (complete unknown, Steele himself says he sent docs to a contact in the FBI), claims made in the dossier were used for the FISA warrant (possible), the claims presented to FISC were not corroborated (unlikely imo), this could be a scandal imo. But for it to be a scandal of epic proportions, I would think that there would need to be another component. Some sort of ill intent or deliberate impropriety such as pressure being applied to the FBI to use uncorroborated content of the dossier to obtain the warrants.

That's essentially what you're driving at right? That the DNC/Clinton campaign had this document created and then dropped it on the FBI and that for some reason (political pressure I'm guessing), the FBI used uncorroborated claims from the dossier to get a FISA warrant so that the FBI would place members of the opposing campaign under surveillance?

Yes, that would be a scandal. If it was a conspiracy to obtain some sort of political advantage, it's a scandal on par with Watergate. Probably not quite the "the most serious political scandal the US has ever seen" (there's been worse than Watergate, arguably worse *since* Watergate).

But that's a lot of dots to connect and some of them at first blush are problematic. And proving it could be next to impossible even it were true. If Mark Elias says he didn't tell the DNC/Clinton about the dossier and no proof comes about that he did, that's a problem. If the neither Mark Elias (Perkins Coie), the DNC, Clinton campaign or some maybe some member of the admin gave the dossier to the FBI, that's a problem. If nobody exerted any pressure on the FBI/DOJ/whomever to use the dossier to get any FISA warrants, that's a problem. If information from the dossier that was used for the warrant application but it was corroborated, that's a deal breaker.

I wonder if people would provide the same scrutiny on Trump threads?

"How dare you make a thread saying if Trump colluded it would be bad!!! There is no reason to discuss that"

No, people would not provide the same level of scrutiny. They'd come in with a bunch of dismissive one-liners, possibly refer to the author as a shell and refuse to spend any actual effort considering let alone discussing the content of the OP.

Do you want to see how abusive, dismissive and unwilling to have reasoned debate Trump supporters on ATS actually are?

Ukranian MP Alleges Evidence of Manafort Receiving Illegal Payments

Here's another one about Manafort:

Leaked Documents: Manafort Worked To Advance Putin Agenda

The Trump threads are even worse. Do you see people trying to argue points? Nope. Just lots of "fake news" "this should be hoax binned" and me being called a shill. How many hundreds of times have you been called a shill for having an opinion that isn't politically correct for ATS?

a reply to: the2ofusr1
Syndesmos ...
or some other funny sounding name

a reply to: Grambler

Can you fill me in on the specifics of the FISA warrant you cite?

Who it was obtained for and under what circumstances?

a reply to: theantediluvian

I feel like you are adding an unnecessary step.

Hillary's team did not need to hand this over to the fbi for it to be corrupt.

Again, the people that paid for this, BOTH the Republican and democrats that were 8nvolved with paying steele, are responsible for points 1, 2, and 3.

And again, all three of those are true even if this wasn't used for fisa warrants.

The real corruption here would be on the part of the fbi and Obama administration.

They knew where the document came from. They knew it was paid opposition research to a foreign agent who used Kremlin sources.

Hell, they even agreed to keep paying Steele. That in its own right is a scandal. Imagine how outraged everyone would be if Obama's fbi, or or doj like sessions decided to pay a foreign agent previously paid by the trump admin to dig up dirt on Hillary and Obama.

More in a second

a reply to: Damiel

Thats not it but this vid is funny :>)

a reply to: soberbacchus

I'm on "timeline between Fisa and Steele"
The best, for the minute :

FBI reportedly obtained secret order to monitor Trump adviser for Russia ties

Wednesday 12 April 2017 04.27 BST

The FBI obtained a secret court order last summer to monitor the communications of Carter Page, an adviser to then presidential candidate Donald Trump, over suspicions he was a Russian agent, the Washington Post has reported.

Page is among the Trump associates under scrutiny as the FBI and congressional committees investigate whether any of them colluded with Moscow to skew the 2016 election in Trump’s favour.

Both Page and Trump have denied any wrongdoing and portrayed the investigations as a witch-hunt.
But the investigations continue to haunt the Trump administration.

a reply to: theantediluvian

Now as far as the FBI corroborating.

Think back to the timeline.

The fisa warrant was issued in July, right. So ae we to believe that the FBI got the steele dossier in early july, corroborated in in a matter of days, and then used it in part to obtain a fisa warrant. To corroborate something so quickly on such a serious matter seems ridiculous.

Given that we know that some of the parts of it were blatantly false, such as Cohen in prague, and that would have only taken about 20 minutes to find how, how thoroughly could they really have corroborated this?

What did they do, look at the dossier, say "Yep we knew Manafort was shady so this is corroborated" and then use it to get fisa warrant? Thats ridiculous.

And keep in mind, as I believe you yourself have admitted, this dossier was so amteurish that almost all media outlets set on it and wouldn't report it.

So do you men to tell me that something even media companies wouldnt touch because it was so shady was good enough for a Fisa warrant? I don't buy it.

However, I guess we will see what the FBI says.

a reply to: theantediluvian

On watergate being worse.

I disagree in the strongest possible way.

What is the allegations in the original investigation.

That Trumps team colluded with Russia to gain an advantage over there opponent.

That pales in comparison to a sitting President using paid oppo research from his party that uses russian agents to survey on the oppositions campaign.

The implications of this, as I have outlined, are staggering.

Maybe you just cant see it because you dont like Trump.

Again, imagine Bannons running in 2024. Bannon pays a firm who uses Chinese sources that says whoever is running against him, say Cory Booker, has team members with shady connections to the Chinese. This dossier says Booker likes being peed on, and says a bunch of other easily confirmed to be not factual. But it includes some facts such as some of the DNC people around him did meet with chinese businesses in the past.

And even though stories of pee and the easily debunked facts are in there, Trumps Doj or FBI uses thaat dossier to get Fisa warrants against Bookers team.

Then Trump spreads that info around to ensure it gets leaked, and he tells allies about it.

Every person that is right now claiming that we need to investigate Trump for russian collusion would be screaming that he committed the most authoritarian abuse possible, and be calling for his head.

And yet those very same people now leave their hatred of Trump, love of Obama, or a combination of the two, have no problem with Obama doing that.

a reply to: Grambler

Obama using FISA warrants to spy on Trump is a fantasy, as the investigation will eventually show.

a reply to: Grambler

Again, the people that paid for this, BOTH the Republican and democrats that were 8nvolved with paying steele, are responsible for points 1, 2, and 3.

Assuming you are talking about the points in your op:

#1 in your OP was nothing more than your opinion on hypocrisy.

#2 has to do with some DNC/campaign staffers lying, which is not indicative of anything other than they lied, and your opinion on why they were "hiding" this info.

and #3 is your opinion on how this could have been a good way for Russia to truly influence the US.

And again, all three of those are true even if this wasn't used for fisa warrants.

They could be true, but again, those points are more your opinion than anything else.

The real issue is that if it wasn't used for the FISA warrants, the "huge problem" you talk about in the OP is completely nonexistent.

The real corruption here would be on the part of the fbi and Obama administration.

They knew where the document came from. They knew it was paid opposition research to a foreign agent who used Kremlin sources.

Not unless they corroborated some of the info in that document and used that corroborated evidence to get the warrants.

Like AD pointed out, your theory relies on many pieces of the puzzle fitting in a very specific order and if even one or two do not fit right, the whole thing falls apart.

a reply to: mhc_70

Really? Wasn't it that lying rag The Washington Post that broke the story?

a reply to: Grambler

While I admit I'm personally highly sceptical about Steele being completely removed from intel, fact is he's been publicly retired from SIS for years and isn't listed as a foreign agent.

Personally can't see SIS putting that much money into training someone then letting them leave, then use said training and sources in the public sphere to make money. I think they'd want something in return, no idea what that could be though due to the secret nature. Most likely as a means of illegally gathering intel by proxy.

originally posted by: DJW001
a reply to: Grambler

Obama using FISA warrants to spy on Trump is a fantasy, as the investigation will eventually show.

That could be, we will see.

If thats true, it a shame that the FBI stonewalled all of this time instead of just replying to subpoenas when asked.

And why was the FBI trying to pay a foreign agent to dig up dirt on Trump again?

a reply to: Damiel

Oh, I know all about Carter Page and why that FISA warrant was granted.

I was hoping for Grambler to educate himself.

He paints it as if the Dossier was the basis for that warrant.

Carter page was caught handing off documents to now convicted Russian Spies as far back as 2013.

Russian Spies Tried to Recruit Carter Page Before He Advised Trump
www.nytimes.com...

Trump campaign adviser Carter Page targeted for recruitment by Russian spies
www.nytimes.com...

The Dossier on Carter Page:
...........
RUSSIA: SECRET KREMLIN MEETINGS ATTENDED BY TRUMP ADVISOR,
CARTER PAGE IN MOSCOW (JULY 2016)

Summary

Detail

TRUMP advisor Carter PAGE holds secret meetings in Moscow with

SECHIN and senior Kremlin Internal Affairs official, DIVYEKIN

raises issues of future bilateral US-Russia energy co-operation
and associated lifting of western sanctions against Russia over Ukraine.

PAGE non-committal in response

DIVEYKIN discusses release of Russian dossier of 'kompromat on
TRUMP's opponent, Hillary CLINTON, but also hints at Kremlin

possession of such material on TRUMP

1. Speaking in July 2016, a Russian source close to Rosneft President, PUTIN

close associate and US-sanctioned individual, Igor SECHIN, confided the
details of a recent secret meeting between him and visiting Foreign
Affairs Advisor to Republican presidential candidate Donald TRUMP,

Carter PAGE.

According to SECHIN's associate, the Rosneft President (CEO) had raised

with PAGE the issues of future bilateral energy cooperation and
prospects for an associated move to lift Ukraine-related western
sanctions against Russia. PAGE had reacted positively to this demarche
by SECHIN but had been generally non-committal in response.

Speaking separately, also in July 2016, an official close to Presidential
Administration Head, S. IVANOV, confided in a compatriot that a senior
colleague in the Internal Political Department of the PA, DIVYEKIN (nfd)

also had met secretly with PAGE on his recent visit. Their agenda had

included DIVEYKIN raising a dossier of kompromat the Kremlin
possessed on Democratic presidential rival, Hillary CLINTON,

and its possible release to the Republicans campaign team.
........

This was confirmed/corroborated independently by intelligence agencies. (the meetings between Carter Page and Russian Intelligence Operatives while in Moscow)

* Falshback to Sept 2016

September 23, 2016

U.S. intelligence officials are seeking to determine whether an American businessman identified by Donald Trump as one of his foreign policy advisers has opened up private communications with senior Russian officials — including talks about the possible lifting of economic sanctions if the Republican nominee becomes president, according to multiple sources who have been briefed on the issue.

A senior U.S. law enforcement official did not dispute that characterization when asked for comment by Yahoo News. “It’s on our radar screen,” said the official about Page’s contacts with Russian officials. “It’s being looked at.”

www.yahoo.com...

originally posted by: the2ofusr1
a reply to: Damiel

Thats not it but this vid is funny :>)

Hillary and Harvey Winestain are starring in a new Netflix show called "Orange is the new Blue".

a reply to: soberbacchus

Yes as said above, carter page and manafort had previously been under surveillance, and then those warrants ran out.

They were reupped after they were connected to Trumps campaign.

In fact, the Fusa court reportedly turned down requests for waarrants on members of Trumps team at first, which is extremely rare.

January 11, 2017

Tasos Katopodis/AFP/Getty Images

FBI Director James Comey was personally aware of reports from a "credible" Western former intelligence agent about Russia's alleged "cultivating, supporting, and assisting" of President-elect Donald Trump and his campaign, The Guardian reported late Tuesday, because Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.) personally handed them to Comey in a Dec. 9 meeting, according to "a source aware of the meeting."

The Russia-Trump dossier began as opposition research during the campaign, but "its author was sufficiently alarmed by what he discovered to send a copy to the FBI," The Guardian says, and McCain, who was informed about the allegations from "an intermediary from a Western allied state," then "dispatched an emissary overseas to meet the source," whom he was "sufficiently impressed" with to feel obliged to pass the allegations on to Comey. But FBI agents were already concerned enough about ties between Trump's inner circle and Russia that they had sought court approval to monitor campaign officials, The Guardian reports:

The Guardian has learned that the FBI applied for a warrant from the foreign intelligence surveillance (FISA) court over the summer in order to monitor four members of the Trump team suspected of irregular contacts with Russian officials. The FISA court turned down the application, asking FBI counter-intelligence investigators to narrow its focus. According to one report, the FBI was finally granted a warrant in October, but that has not been confirmed, and it is not clear whether any warrant led to a full investigation. [The Guardian]

theweek.com...

So it got denied because they needed more info.

Then the FBI got the dossier. Then the reapplied for a fisa warrant and got it.

The CNN article says sources say that the dossier was used to help get the warrant.

This would make sense in the timeline.

I fail to see how the fact that Page and Manafort had previous warrants on them taht expired has to do with rather or not the dossier was used to get the 2016 warrants for them.

originally posted by: Grambler

originally posted by: Painterz
Correct me if I'm wrong though, this revelation doesn't demonstrate the contents of the dossier are false, simply who paid for the research to be conducted?


And we always knew that somebody paid for the research to be conducted, and it always seemed a reasonable bet it would be a political opponent of Trump?

Even if every single allegation in the dossier were true, it is so much less concerning than allowing a sitting president to have his party pay foreign agents for info that is then used for secret warrants to survey their opponents.

If we allow this, our entire political system is dead.

As for the dossier itself, some of it has been proven to be absolutely wrong like the Cohen meeting.

But now that an investigation is going, by all means it should continue.

Everything in the OP in no way proves Trump or his team are innocent.

Is that the new talking point? That Obama used the Dossier as the only evidence to get wiretaps on Manafort? Not the fact that he had been previously under investigation and lied about his contacts with certain officials?

a reply to: Grambler

So it got denied because they needed more info.

Then the FBI got the dossier. Then the reapplied for a fisa warrant and got it.

That is not what your source said. This is what it said:

The FISA court turned down the application, asking FBI counter-intelligence investigators to narrow its focus.

It was not rejected due to lack of info.

It got rejected because they wanted the FBI to narrow it's focus of the investigation. Just as the source states.