If the USA doesn't give 100% 'Basic' Medical Coverage to its People - It is Evil

originally posted by: AlienView
I do not want to discuss the political side of this issue [ie. does the Constitution of the United Sataes saying 'All men are Created Equal" imply that Healthcare is a right, etc.]. Rather I am saying it is a moral/ethical issue - A country that spends and often wastes trillions of dollars to police the World and then can not afford to cover the basic Health Care of its own citizens

couldn't agree more... it's an ethical obligation to provide this kind of care for our people and we definitely have the money to do it. i think there's a peculiar american mindset that gets in the way of the logical conclusion here... a combination of anger some people feel that anyone is getting 'more' than they are in some way, and a peculiar puritanical, aspirational mindset that wants to punish people for not bootstrapping themselves out of the gutter, as if that's possible for everyone.

we all pay sales tax, we all live here... we all deserve something this basic.

originally posted by: DBCowboy
a reply to: AlienView

Okay, allow me to be blunt.

It's never going to happen. No glorious utopia, no happy endings, no benign caring government, no population of caring people, no peace on earth.

Our government will continue to grow, will destroy anyone who tries to shrink it. All governments will do this.

People will continue to be greedy and selfish.

Good things happen, but they happen in the micro, not the macro.

I take it you are An optimist. 😂

In all seriousness though, you are spot on ....government needs to grow, and that happens at the expense of we the people.

originally posted by: BlueAjah

originally posted by: carewemust

originally posted by: BlueAjah
a reply to: AlienView

So after clearing that up, I think everyone should be responsible for paying for their own health care. I don't think I should be forced to pay for other people's health care.

Either way, you're paying. But if the system is such that everyone is paying for each other's healthcare, and it's implemented fairly and efficiently, the cost-per-person would be less than you paying for just yourself.

The big unknown, and potential monkey-wrench, is the "fairly and efficiently" part.

That is indeed a huge monkey-wrench. When has the government ever shown that they are capable of running things "fairly and efficiently"?

The best measure is patient satisfaction. Generally, most patients on Medicare are satisfied. And so are most veterans who utilize the V.A.

Medicaid and ObamaCare has a high percentage of dis-satisifed patients.

originally posted by: seentoomuch
a reply to: carewemust

Maybe we should insist that all of Congress is switched to the Obamacare of their districts and see how fast this is fixed.

STM

Congress IS on ObamaCare, but it's the GROUP version, called the Small Business Health Options Program. (SHOP) These plans, like most group plans, include physicians and hospitals in all 50 states.
www.healthcare.gov...

The government makes contributions to help Congress and their families afford the premiums. Because SHOP is for business organizations, and Congress isn't a "business", President Trump is threatening to shut off the financial assistance that helps Congress and their staff pay these premiums. Legally, he can do this, because like I said, Congress is using SHOP illegally. The institution is NOT a business.

a reply to: carewemust

We the people are expendable, this was realized when work was DE compartmentalized, once the floor manager had skills to run the whole production line, so the mangers role was reduced to components, with having individuals running each component they were easily replaced, with other individuals with that one necessary skill.

This is all by design.

a reply to: hopenotfeariswhatweneed

I guess the way to keep yourself from being expendable, is to find a need, and fill that need, for a price, eh?

a reply to: carewemust


Absolutely, it is really scary the vehement disdain and hate projected at those who fall through the cracks and god forbid attempt to make money illegally.


We are our own worst enemy, I don't really even know how to respond to those who look down on individual drug dealers failing to take into account the drugs are available through the actions of those who make the laws in the first place.

They have never done it before,Obamacare was a forced socialist plan,get over it,get job,make money get your own insurance,pay taxes

,,, Never minding if the people of the country didn't have to pay for their own health care, they would maybe be happier, healthier, and have money to spend on frivolous # like the rich do...

...But I thought everything ran on debt...

...?...

a reply to: AlienView

Rather I am saying it is a moral/ethical issue - A country that spends and often wastes trillions of dollars to police the World and then can not afford to cover the basic Health Care of its own citizens

Exactly...

Let alone all the other problems like infrastructure, education, debt, jobs, etc.

We're too busy hating on other nations, spewing race hatred and religious persecution to worry about our health.

originally posted by: carewemust

originally posted by: BlueAjah

originally posted by: carewemust

originally posted by: BlueAjah
a reply to: AlienView

So after clearing that up, I think everyone should be responsible for paying for their own health care. I don't think I should be forced to pay for other people's health care.

Either way, you're paying. But if the system is such that everyone is paying for each other's healthcare, and it's implemented fairly and efficiently, the cost-per-person would be less than you paying for just yourself.

The big unknown, and potential monkey-wrench, is the "fairly and efficiently" part.

That is indeed a huge monkey-wrench. When has the government ever shown that they are capable of running things "fairly and efficiently"?

The best measure is patient satisfaction. And so are most veterans who utilize the V.A.

22 a day say that health care at the VA is severely lacking.

Phoenix VA

Daily caller list of VA scandals 2015


These are all recent problems at the VA you can find stories ranging back to Vietnam about the incompetence at the VA, if you happen to live near a good VA great wonderful fantastic for you, if you live near a bad one you are screwed.

originally posted by: Metallicus
a reply to: AlienView

Forcing people to pay for someone else's stuff is evil in my opinion. Your opinion just happens to be different and no more valid.

Allowing people to die or suffer incapacitating disease or ailment simply because they do not have enough money to pay for treatment is arguably vastly more evil.

a reply to: AlienView

Lets' deconstruct this:

1. The people elect the Representatives in Congress.

2. The elected representatives are supposed to do the will of their constituents.

3. If the US does not "give" basic medical coverage to all people, then the constituents must not want it per points #1 and #2.

4. Ergo, you are now calling the citizens of the US evil.

Thanks for playing and thank for calling us evil for not wanting or trusting our government to implement and run such a system.

It has nothing to do with not wanting everyone to have basic medical coverage and everything to do with knowing our government is the very last entity that should be trusted to do such a thing.

a reply to: Kryties

Seeing as how the VA provides basic care to all veterans ... except the ones who die on the treatment waiting lists.

I'd ask you what makes you think basic care would be any different for the entire population? That's how the government rolls with basic coverage, and if you do your research, you will find that the two biggest deniers of care claims in the US are also Medicaid and Medicare, two other government run programs.

originally posted by: carewemust

originally posted by: seentoomuch
a reply to: carewemust

Maybe we should insist that all of Congress is switched to the Obamacare of their districts and see how fast this is fixed.

STM

Congress IS on ObamaCare, but it's the GROUP version, called the Small Business Health Options Program. (SHOP) These plans, like most group plans, include physicians and hospitals in all 50 states.
www.healthcare.gov...

The government makes contributions to help Congress and their families afford the premiums. Because SHOP is for business organizations, and Congress isn't a "business", President Trump is threatening to shut off the financial assistance that helps Congress and their staff pay these premiums. Legally, he can do this, because like I said, Congress is using SHOP illegally. The institution is NOT a business.

They get $12,000.00 a year subsidy. EACH!

The small business designation is less than 50 employees.

Right there they should be shut off with no if's and's or but's.

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: Kryties

Seeing as how the VA provides basic care to all veterans ... except the ones who die on the treatment waiting lists.

Seeing as how this is completely false and less than 40% of vets receive health benefits from the VA who is very good at coming up w excuses not to treat us for anything without a Congressional investigation

I'd ask you what makes you think basic care would be any different for the entire population? That's how the government rolls with basic coverage, and if you do your research, you will find that the two biggest deniers of care claims in the US are also Medicaid and Medicare, two other government run programs.

I had better treatment when I was on Medicaid than when trying to work with the VA. The permanent damage done to my body because treatment was delayed for about 20 years is mind
Blowing because had some basic care been in place from day one,
things would have turned out very different for me.

a reply to: AlienView

Every American by living in the U.S. has an opportunity to participate in the "American Dream". It all comes down to those that are successful at making it work, and those who don't. Here it's every man (and woman) for themselves. If you are smart, strong (either physically or mentally or both), have the right skin color, you have a leg up on the competition (mentally or physically disabled or a minority), you already start from a deficit. It's Darwinism put into action. It's been this way here for over 250 years. It's not necessarily evil, but the way it is. That's the reality. You know how it operates. It's like a sporting competition. There'll be winners and losers.

originally posted by: Xcathdra
a reply to: AlienView

Please point out in the US Constitution where its required.

Not required in the US constitution to ban drugs either, but you do.

Lot of things happen that are not in the constitution.

Far as the constitution goes there is nothing to say the federal government can or cant provide healthcare.

a reply to: InsaneIthorian

If the argument is that we should provide it for the most vulnerable, then that has been done. It's called Medicaid.

Why is there an obligation to provide it for everyone, even those with the means to provide for themselves?

originally posted by: DBCowboy
a reply to: Willtell

Car Insurance?

I'm not mandated at birth to buy a ####ing car!

Look, if you can find a government that is filled with kind modest people who only want to help, then couple that with a population of people that are willing to work, aren't selfish and greedy, then socialism might work.

Might.

Sweden.

Problem is they where so keen to help they let half the middle east in and now its ruined.