The Vertical Plane by Ken Webster - Is this proof of Time manipulation and travel or just a story?

a reply to: dingdongdoodah

What a coincidence, I was reading Brave New World before this thread popped up, and can't finish it now lol.
If your in England, there are loads of libraries with The Vertical Plane, you can do a search online and it will tell you which ones. In the country i'm in, Australia, has not one single library in the ENTIRE COUNTRY with a copy!

If 2109 are from the future, and they were pretending to be otherworldly type of beings, why would they call themselves "2109"?? Oh, let's pretend we're some inter dimensional beings when we interact with them; but we'll state what year we're from! I think future time travelers would be more prudent then that. Also, If they were us from the future interacting with their history, they'd try to leave the smallest footprint as possible. So why start lecturing about physics and the nature of reality? wouldn't that have drastic consequences to their timeline?

I think this rules out that possibility...2109 being us from the future.

a reply to: CromCruachh

Maybe they are inter-dimensional but wanted people to believe they were from 2109 in our future?

I could be mistaken, but from my memory of what Steve and others have posted, it wasn't that they 'claimed' to be inter dimensional, but that there had been some leakage of 'data' (not actually intended for the recipients) from which it could be 'deduced' that they were inter-dimensional..

originally posted by: CromCruachh
Just read that CIA doc. The model of physics theorized in that paper caters to the 2109 statements. Remember 2109 claim
other dimensions exist, we have a soul which can travel, and their position in the universe is 'everywhere'. One example;
What you would call a tachyon universe … We move at a speed so that we cover every point in your time and universe.

aand a quote from the cia doc;
Physicists define time as a measurement of energy or force in motion. In other words, it is a measurement of change. However, in order for energy to be in motion it must first be limited in some way within the confines of some sort of vibratory pattern so that it's confinement gives it the capacity for being contained at a specific location which is distinguishable from other locations(space). Energy which is not confined is force without limit, without dimension, without the limits of form.It is infinity, cannot move because there is nothing beyond infinity, and is therefore outside of the dimension of time. It is also beyond space because that concept implies that a specific energy form is limited to a specific location and is absent from other locations. Energy in infinity means energy uniformly extended without limit. It has no beginning, no end, no location. It is conscious force, the fundamental, primal power of existence WIHOUT FORM, a state of infinite being. and Energy in this state of inactive infinity is termed by physicists as energy in absolute state, or simply "The Absolute". Between the absolute and the material universe in which we experience our physical existence are various intervening dimensions. (which we cannot perceive unless we enter an altered state of consciousness)

So in order for 2109 to exist outside of our time, and for them to be 'incorporeal beings' wihtout shape or form, they must be in the absolute energy state, peering into all the other intervening dimensions. That would explain why they see the futures and the pasts and why they exist everywhere at once. OR perhaps they are a few degrees south of the Absolute dimension.



damn, there's so much to discuss it's hard to know where to begin!

I'm going to study this properly for a while longer, then post back in a few days.

BTW, steve, how did you come across that released CIA doc?

Yes man! That is what I am talking about! Wonderful insight man, I applaud you for putting these pieces together without even having the book. I am still finishing the rest of the replies and I think you expound on this so I am going to wait until I read the rest before I comment further.

I honestly don't remember exactly where I ran across that CIA paper, it was either here at ATS or at r/psychonaut at reddit. Someone somewhere linked it a few months back and I found it fascinating so I book marked it. I had forgotten about it completely until someone asked me about it on reddit and I went back through and took another look.

a reply to: CromCruachh

and Lost Girl

You are both on the right track here. The point you are at right now is the same point I went through, where I realized we can't take all of this at face value. If you remember back I mention that at one point 2109 mentions that they have manipulated some of the digital messages between Thomas and Ken in order to hide information they claimed shouldn't be known. Since we know that, I think we can safely assume that there is a very good chance that they misrepresented some of the information about themselves, for whatever reason.

2109 is an odd moniker for an entity that claims they exist in a "Tachyon Universe". So to that point Lost Girl we do get that information specifically from 2109, they tell Ken that quote that Crunch posted earlier. You guys bring up a great point though, why 2109 in that case? Why not call themselves something other than a date? So that leaves us with them either being humans from the future representing themselves as Light beings or they are Light Beings presenting themselves in a way that makes it ambiguous whether on purpose or not.

I could be wrong but I still believe there is a pattern to the spelling mistakes that may shed light on this one way or the other. I feel pretty confident I have spotted a pattern that may be indicative of at least more than 1 entity speaking for 2109. My working theory is that they are future humans misrepresenting themselves or posing as Light Beings which to them may very well be an accepted and rational statement. I think they are just laying chaff and obstacles in order to muddy the waters.

The other reason I like this model is because 2109 knows our "future", they know what should happen and what shouldn't happen in order to hopefully guarantee that future. They warn them about the potential for future danger for humanity without being specific. Imagine if they were to just come out and say "Hey y'all we are bro's from the future, so as long as things don't blow up we are going to make it another 92 years at least". I haven't even ruled out the possibility that one of the people involved in the story are still alive in 92 years. I have mentioned this before but medical science has been telling us for 10+ years that people alive today may possibly double their life expectancy due to advances. Maybe the reason Gary Rowe is able to say with so much confidence that this is real is because he was actually speaking with himself or a version of himself in those private messages.

That isn't to say I think this is the only possibility, I fully accept that I could be 100% wrong on this model, and it isn't something I would try and argue but I can make all the puzzle pieces fit it. It very well could be that they were being frank about who they are and 2109 moniker is unrelated, and they truly are beyond space and time.

There is yet another option though. It could be a hybrid of both models. They could be future humans that found a way to upload consciousness to some kind of simulation which puts them outside of time and space, due to my messy explanation of Energy at rest and Energy in motion. Hopefully this will make it a little more clear why I have gone into some of those off topic topics and the CIA paper. If the book is "real" and if that CIA paper is real (it's not really in question, but even I have doubts to it's authenticity because it is so straight forward) then we cannot look at them as mutually exclusive.

In any case you guys know my opinion of whether or not The Vertical Plane is "real", and I honestly think that the information needed to come closer to "proving" it is available to us right now if we can just connect enough dots.

Let's also not forget what is probably the most important aspect of this entire story, which even I haven't really spoken of yet in depth. There is 100% proof out there right now just waiting to be found, that is the book written by Thomas Wayman some time after 1546. I personally think that it is probable the opening and closing statements by 2109 are the hints needed to find it.

"True are the nightmares of a person that fears. Safe are the bodies of the silent world. Turn pretty flower turn towards the sun. For you shall grow and sow. But the flower reaches too high and withers in the burning light. Get out your bricks. Pussy cat pussy cat went to London to seek fame and fortune. Faith must not be lost. For this shall be your redeemer" -2109

I think it is in there somewhere.

I just wanted to say I am so happy you guys are getting up to speed, and terribly impressed with your ability to intuit these matters with such limited information. It is precisely because of this that I feel confident that getting this book in your hands will mean serious progress.

I truly don't know if I will be able to pull off what I have in mind, but the plans are big. Well at least for me as a nobody conspiracy theorist that has been laughed at for the last decade. I am proud of this community for handling this topic in such a respectable and rational way, as well as being damn clever to boot.

I have a tendency to get a little grandiose and hyperbolic, but lets pretend for a second that this is 100% real and will be proven in the future. If you think this thread won't be part of the story and archive in that case then you aren't paying attention. There is a very real possibility in that case that I and we are writing ourselves into this story, as there is more original content on this story right here in this thread than anywhere on the internet. Think about that. It is a fraction of what I have in mind, and have created so far. The only thing you risk in participating in this mystery and the search for the lost book is immortality.

Tell me you don't see SyFy doing a special on the search for the lost book once this hits the main stream awareness. The potential is unlimited. I am not waiting for SyFy, I will be bringing you new original content media soon, 100% free for all because you can't put a price on immortality and I have nothing to lose.

a reply to: sputniksteve

Yes, they seem to know our future. Now that's either because they are from our future- OR, they are outside of our time-space continuum and can see everything that's happened, our beginning and end.

Not this frequency!
^that message which 2109 sent to One keeps playing in my mind. It makes me think of Nikola Tesla, when he intercepted what he thought to be intelligent communications, seemingly having a back and forth conversation. I'll quote it below here;

As explained by Swartz, during the test of one of his many inventions, Tesla detected radio transmissions that adjudged to extraterrestrial communications. After this event, the inventor would have become obsessed with building better and more powerful radio receivers. While testing the device, Swartz claimed in an interview, Nikola Tesla overheard radio transmissions he believed were actually attributed to extraterrestrial communications: “He wondered at the time if he wasn’t listening to ‘one planet greeting another,’ as he put it. From that point on, it became somewhat of an obsession of his, to build better and better radio receivers to try to see if he could repeat what he heard. He got to the point where he claimed that he was actually receiving voice transmissions. He said it sounded just like people talking back and forth to each other. He made notes saying that he was actually hearing intelligent beings from another planet talking to each other, although he didn’t know what language they were speaking. But he still felt he understood them.” At the time, it was surmised by prominent scientists that Mars would be a likely haven for intelligent life in our solar system, and Tesla at first thought these signals may be originating from the red planet. While Tesla’s most prominent records and personal notes are in the hands of the United States Army, Swartz claims to have acquired a number of private records at a 1976 auction. The author claims that all this information was missing from the face of the Earth after the visit of the alleged “Men in Black”.

So Tesla intercepted these communications at a higher frequency and assumed they were aliens-but perhaps they were those intelligent life forms in that so called "Tachyon" universe? Just a thought.
www.ancient-code.com...
That's the article I quoted from, I think it's legit?

Btw, for those familiar with John Keel's and jack vallee's work, remember some entities/UFOnaughts can directly read people's minds. I reckon that's why 2109 is good at knowing English, like when they say "Dig?" and mention "Dansant" they understand english so well only because Ken Webster understands english so well. Peering right into his mind like a book. Also, the Ken was an english teacher, so he would know what Dansant means, and that's why 2109 mentioned it, because it was in Ken's vocabulary. I doubt people from 100 years would use dansant.

a reply to: sputniksteve

I have a tendency to get a little grandiose and hyperbolic, but lets pretend for a second that this is 100% real and will be proven in the future.

Grandiose and hyperbolic? nah don't worry about it.

And if this was 100% fake and just a story(I don't think it is fake) then it doesn't matter, because the book promotes thought! We're using our brains! thinking about contemporary physics and reading Elizabethan English-there's no loss there!

originally posted by: CromCruachh
a reply to: sputniksteve

Yes, they seem to know our future. Now that's either because they are from our future- OR, they are outside of our time-space continuum and can see everything that's happened, our beginning and end.

Not this frequency!
^that message which 2109 sent to One keeps playing in my mind. It makes me think of Nikola Tesla, when he intercepted what he thought to be intelligent communications, seemingly having a back and forth conversation. I'll quote it below here;

As explained by Swartz, during the test of one of his many inventions, Tesla detected radio transmissions that adjudged to extraterrestrial communications. After this event, the inventor would have become obsessed with building better and more powerful radio receivers. While testing the device, Swartz claimed in an interview, Nikola Tesla overheard radio transmissions he believed were actually attributed to extraterrestrial communications: “He wondered at the time if he wasn’t listening to ‘one planet greeting another,’ as he put it. From that point on, it became somewhat of an obsession of his, to build better and better radio receivers to try to see if he could repeat what he heard. He got to the point where he claimed that he was actually receiving voice transmissions. He said it sounded just like people talking back and forth to each other. He made notes saying that he was actually hearing intelligent beings from another planet talking to each other, although he didn’t know what language they were speaking. But he still felt he understood them.” At the time, it was surmised by prominent scientists that Mars would be a likely haven for intelligent life in our solar system, and Tesla at first thought these signals may be originating from the red planet. While Tesla’s most prominent records and personal notes are in the hands of the United States Army, Swartz claims to have acquired a number of private records at a 1976 auction. The author claims that all this information was missing from the face of the Earth after the visit of the alleged “Men in Black”.

So Tesla intercepted these communications at a higher frequency and assumed they were aliens-but perhaps they were those intelligent life forms in that so called "Tachyon" universe? Just a thought.
www.ancient-code.com...
That's the article I quoted from, I think it's legit?

Btw, for those familiar with John Keel's and jack vallee's work, remember some entities/UFOnaughts can directly read people's minds. I reckon that's why 2109 is good at knowing English, like when they say "Dig?" and mention "Dansant" they understand english so well only because Ken Webster understands english so well. Peering right into his mind like a book. Also, the Ken was an english teacher, so he would know what Dansant means, and that's why 2109 mentioned it, because it was in Ken's vocabulary. I doubt people from 100 years would use dansant.

Very cool man, I was completely unaware of Teslas discovery of those communications.

I think the theory you provide is at least as valid as anything at this point in time. I am leaning away from them actually being those beings, but that doesn't mean I am right and you are wrong in the slightest. I see all of these models as equal at this point in time, only because I don't know which statements are honest and which ones were meant to be red herrings.

I just can't help feeling that I am missing some aspect of the big picture being presented. Man I really, really wish it was possible for everyone involved in this thread to meet up and talk about this in real time for a day or two. Any wealthy benefactors that could make this happen? I will provide the entertainment!

I will make the offer again that if you are near the Dallas/Fort Worth area or are willing to travel to it I am more than happy to dedicate a couple days to sitting down with you and letting you go through the book while we discuss it. I don't expect anyone to take me up on it as I am most likely a Fruit Loop that thinks he is solving a time travel mystery, but honestly I am very friendly and gracious host. I actually function like a normal dude when I am not talking about this subject. My friends and family would really appreciate it, because they are getting tired of hearing about it

originally posted by: CromCruachh
a reply to: sputniksteve

I have a tendency to get a little grandiose and hyperbolic, but lets pretend for a second that this is 100% real and will be proven in the future.

Grandiose and hyperbolic? nah don't worry about it.

And if this was 100% fake and just a story(I don't think it is fake) then it doesn't matter, because the book promotes thought! We're using our brains! thinking about contemporary physics and reading Elizabethan English-there's no loss there!

Keep kicking that righteous knowledge dude. I could not agree with you more; To me it doesn't matter if it is real or not. Either way it is a fun and exciting mystery that has the potential to be solved with some hard work and most likely some luck. I think that is part of the attraction for us or at least for me. I personally don't "need" the book to be true for my time to be spent well and for my goals to be met. I am not doing any of this because I just want to be part of the story even though I acknowledge it as a possibility, but rather because I am having an absolute blast doing it. I obsess about most of the topics or stories I find interesting here, it was just coincidence that this was the first time I had something to contribute that others weren't so I started a thread instead of just participating in someone elses.

Hey guys. I am starting my second read through and ran across something I had forgotten about and never mentioned here.

The very first sign they had that something was afoot was a set of foot prints on the wall walking diagonally that appeared in 1984. I don't know for certain but I believe that when the book starts it is 1986 so the "experiment" or event most likely started on or before August of 1984. Maybe we can look at some records or almanacs to see if there was any interesting phenomena or events that took place at that time.

In the beginning of the book this is mentioned because one evening they paint over the foot prints, but they reappear the next day in a different position. Oh yeah, it is a 6 toed foot print as well.

Please laugh silently in acknowledgment of my pun

I figured out the exact time line now. First event Aug 1984-Beginning pages of Book and second event Aug 1985-Computer first brought home between Aug and Dec of 1985-Next brought home Feb of 1986 and then that's where the rest of the book takes place through 1987.

Hello All.

It's taken me a while to contribute to this thread. I've been following the discussion for a while now but for some reason, no matter how hard I tried, I couldn't join ATS. I kept getting 'server error' messages until yesterday.

Regardless, I am now very excited to discuss The Vertical Plane. I was introduced to it by the MU podcast, which I occasionally listened to at the time. I find a lot of the topics on MU to be a bit groundless but there was something about this Dodleston thing that hit me. It just didn't seem like BS. I still think it's complexity suggests that it is highly unlikely to be a hoax.

Before I start rabbiting on I want to give massive thanks to the intelligent contributors on the forum, especially sputniksteve, CromCruachh, lostgirl and dingdongdoodah. There are some really great brains here.

So, shortly after I heard the podcast I became obsessed with getting a copy of the book. Copies were pricey, but they were sitting around $200s-$300s when I was hunting. I set up an alert and managed to nab a copy for $80 after being alerted at 4.00am - or so I thought! The sale went through but just before the seller withdrew funds from my account they stopped the sale completely without explanation. All my questions went unanswered. They just said that they had the right to withdraw. So Close.

I live in Australia, (so I feel for you, dingdongdoodah) and the national library database told me a different story. 'Trove' as its called, lists ONE copy in Australia, as being in a small library in a country town. The library's own catalogue does not list the book and when I rang them they said that it couldn't be found anywhere. Well, I wasn't going to give up yet. Fast-forward a few months and I was heading a couple of hundred kms east of this town on a vacation, so I made a deliberate major detour to look in the library myself. You are probably starting to gauge the level of my obsession by now. Needless to say, the staff thought I was crazy, one librarian treated me very disapprovingly and I got the impression that she thought I was a book thief. I tell you, I would never steal a library book but I wont say that a little duplication hasn't crossed my mind.

A few months ago I also found a working torrent, which sat inactive until one night when in half-an-hour about 79% came down in one slow but consistent stream (from a single seeder), before stopping suddenly and NEVER restarting again. This left one version of the document at 94%, without enough metadata to reclaim about the last third of the book, meaning none of the 2109 info is there. It is weird how very close I came without quite getting it.

Maybe you were meant to have it, sputniksteve... I'd like to say thank you so much for the 2109 statements. They've helped to fill in the gaps.

I have so much to say to catch up so I'm sorry if I bore you.

If you've scoured the entire net for info, you've probably come across the 'mercurius politicus' wordpress blog discussion that features Gary Rowe giving some hints himself. He seems like a very nice fellow. One angle that I think is unexplored until now is the Clwyd Technics company which were based nearby in Clwyd (mentioned in the book as a kind-of-nowhere and unremarkable district). After some digging for catalogues, I found that they made quite advanced robots that were powered by the BBC Micro, as well as the Edword program. I can not find any other information other than that. I found a copy of an Edword 2.0 manual in my local library from 1985 (hoping to find names in the copyright info) but when I requested the book from storage the librarian told me that someone had requested it just before me - and that it was missing. It seemed so very unlikely that someone ordered the same 1985 computer manual in that particular Australian library. Anyway... Gary Rowe was not aware of this company or that modems were available for the BBC in 1984.

From the get go, I intuitively felt that this was about extradimensionality more than it was bout time travel. Not that I think the two are so different. When I saw that CIA document I was blown away. I also couldn't believe how straight-forward it is and how it confirmed my suspicions. If you read my comments (under another name) on mercurius politicus, you will see that I also mentioned J.W. Dunne and his "Experiment in Time" / Serial Time theories. This is a book my friend happened to find secondhand about ten years ago, when I read it. This contributed to me fitting the parts together when I heard the story of the Dodleston fiasco. I have also had a personal experience that I will not yet detail - that gave me some kind of insight into a perspective whereby time may not be linear. Maybe I'll reserve that for a time when I can be assured of not being harshly judged.

There is a forum on a site called Paracast where Debbie herself contributes!

www.theparacast.com...

I tried in vain to contact her and offered to compile an ebook version so that Ken and / or herself could sell it online. I got no response. This is one of the most amazing aspects of this whole thing. Ken has hardly surfaced (I think I found a page that mentions him. He is an environmental academic or similar?) and seems to want nothing to do with it. Neither does Debbie and Gary Rowe seems almost afraid to go back into it. Movie rights are rejected etc. I believe firmly in never backing down from investigating anything but we have to keep in mind that when it comes to researching these events, well... quantum causality isn't really causality and that old chestnut of 'the observer influencing the object being observed through the act of observation' is very relevant.

If this is more than an incredibly well-written and nuanced piece of fiction written by experts in multiple fields, well then, we are definitely influencing events just by delving into it.

Doesn't stop me.

----------------------------

I'm sorry if this post wore anyone out and didn't introduce much new information but you've all already covered the topics that I've researched independently - plus a bunch of things I never thought of. I'm excited to be here. I'm sure I'll remember a bunch of stuff that I haven't thought to include here.

Let the hunt continue!

a reply to: TrueGoose

Aussie chess players call the synchronicity "swim trunks" although some of us Brits prefer the term astral Vortex.

We have either budgie-smugglers or 'boardies'.

Your response is so cryptic that I'm not sure if I'm welcome or not...

a reply to: TrueGoose

Wow, i'm an Australian also and I followed the exact steps you did!
I also called that library in that small town, what was it...Morwell? No wonder they thought you were crazy, heaps of people probably rang them for that book, and when you went in there maybe they thought it was you who kept ringing them? lol!
Then i got that torrent which only downloaded to 74%
I even called second hand book shops all across the country, and in London! all to no avail
BUT...My second language is german, and abra cadabra...in 1993 Ernst Meckelburg printed another copy, with Ken's permission. This was the second printing, the only other language The Vertical Plane was translated into.
www.amazon.de...

All of the messages from 2109, Ken, One and Tomas are in English. The rest is in German.

I'm interested in that BBC computer manual now, I'm gonna do some searching for it.

a reply to: TrueGoose

Welcome Goose! So nice to have you man welcome to the party! Anything you are able to contribute is welcomed no matter what. I was not aware of the forum with Deb in it, and am excited to check it out. I myself have written Ken multiple times, telling him what I intend to do and also have gotten no response. I'm not quite sure what to do, I am going forward but can't afford to defend myself in court. I am hoping my good faith effort and lack of any financial gain will cover me.

I really hope you get comfortable enough to share your anecdote. ATS can be a bit judgemental but for what ever reason this thread has been NOTHING but supportive and polite which frankly is an anomaly all on its own. In other words if there was ever a thread to confidently let your "crazy flag" fly its this one. It doesn't get better.

a reply to: TrueGoose

Goose I had not read those posts by Debbie! I am so happy you mentioned it, I now know exactly what I need to do.


I hadn't even realized that 2109 had a message I had missed and isn't on my DB. It is pretty damn juicy too!!

Jesus I still can't believe this is real sometimes. I mean I "know" it is, but it's just so F,ing crazy. Ive never been more certain that this is real and that it is soon going to get the attention it deserves.

I am at McD letting the boy play and will update DB and you guys with passage in a bit. It's far too long to type on my phone.

Heeeeere we go!

"Time, UFO’s, and most other types of the paranormal are in some way all connected:- In certain geographical locations there is what we call areas of convexual magnatism. These can be explaind by the magnetic lines that run around the earth. Imagine, if you will, circles running around the earth clockwise (these are positive lines of manetic forse- P.L.M.F) and also circles running anticlockwise around the earth (negative ‘’’’-N.L.M.F!). When two oppersite running lines are crossed (usually a permanent crossing rather than random) the light/time continuem is vastly distorted so much so that a “sensitive” indavidual may witness what you , may call a time scape, that is, a glims of a past event or that of a future event. Ah!, we hear you say, but you said matter could not travell in time, this is true as if matter were to travell by physical motion then mass around the moving object would be so dense that the earth and most other celestial bodies in your solar system would be consumed or inbalanced in such a way that they would decay rapidly. Then how: Imagine, again please, a person from the future happily floating along in his silver space ship crossing an area of convexual mag. All of a sudden his instrument pannel goes “shaky” he may feel slightly dizzy or naseaus a green mist (caused by aptnospheric distortion) forms around the vessal he then will proberbly fall into a “trance” state of such depths that his “soul” is squeezed through the light/time gate and is forced to project a physical mirror image of him/her self as a [word missing] of their place/time origin and their emidiate vicinity. This can occur sometimes for only several seconds and does only registers for that individuals subconscious but on-lookers, from the time which is “broken into”, will witness the very physical sight and actions of this “alien” from another time then, totally by confusion, elaborate on the facts. We are not saying that there is no other life outside your planet, on the contrey, there is life eles where, but the above phenomena is the most usual as space is infenite to the mortal and the chances of another race coming across the earth is not really in a braket of proberbillity. There was once a great phelosopher who likend time to an infinitely high block of flats each floor to represent events all piled on top of one another (vertically to represent the georgraphical location and lateraelly to represent event-each floor) A little correcting!, Finnish after." - Unsigned

Again Mods I am certainly not trying to plagiarize. There is no actual author I can assign the quote to, nor an external source I can quote. I don't think they will be in a position to complain anyway. Frankly if they do, please let me know lol.

I have a couple thoughts on the explanation, and a possible insight.

According to that statement nothing can travel in time with physical motion. That sheds a lot of light on the contrariety between the earlier statement that "things" could not travel in time.

So that means that when Lukas/Thomas was trading items like pictures, chalk, pen, and papers with Ken and Deb what ever was allowing them to travel back and forth was not physical motion. Not that it helps us at all but it clears up that very concerning point that I had pretty much glossed over till now.

My first thought without digesting this line of thought too much is to wonder if that speaks at all to the "realness" of the physical items from an objective view. What is special about those items that they were able to make that journey? Why couldn't a person have been able to travel back and forth as well? We don't know how that was happening, as Thomas never specified how he was doing it. I don't know maybe I just need to let this marinate on my subconscious a while, and maybe there is nothing there at all and I am just grasping.

In any case there is a photo of one of the PG incidents that made me wonder about something. In this particular photo that I know is already online but which I will post here too, the PG event consisted of what seems to be most or part of a room full of furniture all half hazardly piled up in a corner. Almost like it was all sucked into that spot rather than being stacked like normal. I highly doubt this is due to a consequence of time traveling with physical motion, only it was furniture instead of all the planets in the solar system. That is probably why this is a dumb hypothesis for that particular PG. Just made me think.

Ill update with that photo in a minute. Heading back home now.

So we have Time, UFO, and most Paranormal all happening for the same reason give or take. That certainly is not a new idea for us here at ATS. In fact there are some great threads here about Jacque Valee and his late in life theory that UFO's were not nuts and bolts craft ( I am paraphrasing). We have our own (no longer unfortunately) Jeff Ritzman who is still very respected by many here that eventually left he UFO field due to his belief that there was something less nuts and bolts and more paranormal related happening, that was disturbing him enough to quit (I am going by memory here).

The explanation offered form this unknown entity who Ken assumed was 2109 (I believe I can verify form mispellings,I thought it was best to not correct them thank goodness) certainly seems to fit the bill for a lot of unexplained events. At the very least it seems to explain a lot of Ghost sightings and what not.

I remember being about 9 or 10 years old way back in 1989 or 1990 coincidentally, driving with my uncle and 2 cousins in the mountains of Montana and having the thought that "Aliens or UFO's were just Time travelers". Granted in my mind I believed they would probably be nuts and bolts and living organism instead of "shadows". I imagined that in the future Humans developed into a different kind of creature, and that maybe they needed to return to our time to correct or change something in order to benefit them in their current time. Like imagine if they altered their genetics in order to become space faring citizens, but in doing became un-healthy or damaged. Maybe they lost the ability to see what they "came" from so needed to come back to before the changes in order to sample our DNA or something.

Now I am not suggesting that is real or valid or that I believe it now almost 30 years later. I am also pretty confident that I couldn't have been the first person to imagine that kind of scenario, so it certainly isn't an original idea. It is just an anecdote to bring up the point that I believe it would be worth while to try and look back at old "cases" and stories of events and phenomena in this new light. The amount of information available to all of us now compared to 1989 is incomparable, and I can't help but feel the pieces are all out there if we can put them together. I know I have stated this more than once already, and I am sure you are all tired of hearing it. It just feels like there is something itching somewhere but I can't quite find it to scratch.

I can't wait to see what you guys can come up with from that excerpt. Does it give us any clues to the true nature of 2109? I think I am a bit over loaded at the moment and can't seem to parse it all.