Nicene Creed

a reply to: whereislogic


Why can't you just accept the truth?

Jesus pbuh factually refuted the possibility of multiplicity of God.

Why listen to corrupt men over someone you think IS GOD?

He isn't, but you don't listen to what he says you follow modern men, so I think you are very troubled and do realize it but you are making a serious error relying on mens lies to justify something I have proven fallacious.

You could simply just stop believing in extra Biblical innovations like Trinity and go on with your life, and you would be a disciple of Christ pbuh.

You are a disciple of ancestor worshipping, pagan-polytheists. Trying way to hard to make a lie truth because they fear truth.

They fear light.

Who are lying.

You yourself should be able to prove, if it was true, that Jesus taught the Trinity.

You can't, so seek the lies of men to convince you a lie is actually not with rhetoric, sophistry and deceit.

It's your life though I am just saying you don't need to be a pagan trinitarian and can still be a disciple which is better than being a Christian.

a reply to: Disturbinatti
If you're just going to keep misquoting what Jesus really said and insert "THE Lord" where Jesus never mentioned that word I'm just going to keep quoting God's word truthfully as Jeremiah 23:27 encourages and as Jesus was doing as well when referring to Deuteronomy and elaborating just a little bit:

Jesus answered: “The first is, ‘Hear, O Israel, Jehovah our God is one Jehovah, 30 and you must love Jehovah your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole mind and with your whole strength.’ (Mark 12:29,30)

Jesus said to love Jehovah your God. Not just as you say "Who says worship GOD." He's being very specific here as is the commandment at Deuteronomy. No confusion as to who we're talking about here: Jehovah.

By the way, Jesus in my language is spelled as Jezus, John in my language is spelled as Johannes, James is spelled as Jakobus, name spelling changes from one language to another, just as the divinely inspired bible writers who wrote in Greek used Greek letters that can be transliterated to Iesous if I remember correctly (instead of the English "Jesus"). They showed that it's OK to do that to get the message across. Jehovah is also the english rendering of God's name in the same manner the name Jesus has been transliterated and translated (both names also start with the same Hebrew characters, so you have to remain consistent with that "J" in English translations or when communicating in English, if we were speaking modern Hebrew I would use "Yehowah", Italian is "Géova" I think).

Mark 12:28

One of the scribes who had come up and heard them disputing, knowing that he had answered them in a fine way, asked him: “Which commandment is first* of all?” [*: Or “most important.”]

Isn't it interesting to see that the first or most important commandment has been warped and twisted to leave out the real identity of the God that should be loved by leaving out God's name (or obscure it, leave it vague and open to interpretation, changing it up by saying vague things like "HIM", bringing up other distracting stuff) by bible translators and those who continue to misquote what Jesus really said there?

a reply to: whereislogic


Frustrating how easy it is to prove the Trinity fallacious, huh? Because you can't argue with your Messiah and seek mens hypocrisy as a means of justification who tell you faith does that.

What kind of faith doesn't believe its Messianic Messenger pbuh?

"Sorry Jesus, but we are making you "God", like it or not."

I repeat it because you don't get it, understand the implications, and hope that you will. Audacious I know.

And because it refutes every pro-Trinity argument. It's a silencer to anyone possessing the capacity for logical thinking.

I found an effective strategy and I will use it because it's the only statement required to prove there is no such thing as Trinity.

It's far from ALL I do.

Read my comments you will see. Have.

You have never, however, refuted anything I said.

a reply to: whereislogic


And you avoid my questions like plague, don't really ever quote my words because next to your's they are obviously the truth and you just don't understand why God CAN'T be 3, but it is what He said, ALL the Prophets (pbut) INCLUDING Yeshua the Messiah pbuh.

You can't provide a shred of evidence of Trinity being taught by the Messiah. Because he refuted the possibility.

a reply to: Disturbinatti

I don't deny there are humans doing evil things.

But what makes god good? What makes Satan evil?
And doesn't the bible say somewhere towards "the end" before revelation the one looks like the other? Maybe that's a hint towards it's one thing.

Also we do the evil things humans do mostly for a reason, like food. What's this gods reason to only appeal to fear? Keeping us enslaved, tied into an unchallengable hierarchy?
And people pray for revenge. What thing could a god possibly do, if he were good in a scenario like middle east? Are they praying to Satan then because "God can't answer their calls"?
Maybe sometimes a god has to be Satan to end what the evil humans do?

originally posted by: Disturbinatti
a reply to: whereislogic
You could simply just stop believing in extra Biblical innovations like Trinity ...

It's kinda hard to stop believing in something you already don't believe in. I do not and have never believed in the doctrine of the Trinity. Which I think should be obvious from my commentary and earlier attempts to point that out in response to the way you are replying to my comments, so not sure what the malfunction here is.

I'm getting flashbacks to Full Metal Jacket but I don't want anyone to take the video below as an insult or personal (especially not the added insult from the Sergeant). But I am wondering the question just as emphatically or strongly...

Really puzzling, I even shared a video earlier with the title "Trinity Doctrine, A False Teaching Of Man...".

a reply to: whereislogic


Yeah, I understand all of that. But, the bottom line is that Christianity is rooted in Paganism, not Judaism as it's presented to be. Jesus is not the Jewish Messiah. It's been 2000 years since his supposed birth and death and yet we're still waiting for the prophecy to be fulfilled.

The Hebrew God is NOT a trinity, its 4 fold expression is embedded in Genesis 1.

Christianity is Pablum for the masses. It's the training that neophytes received before Eleusinian initiation.

a reply to: Disturbinatti

You know, the problem with Jesus is he likes to talk indirectly ( metaphorically ). His own 12 disciples sometimes don't understand what he is talking about. There is one instance where he turn away many people because he was literally talking about cannabalism. Many people asked him many times but he keep rambling about eating his flesh and drinking his blood without explaining what he meant by that. I'm having a big headache trying to understand what Jesus said in the entire Gospel of John. LOL.

16 “In a little while, you will see me no more; then, a little while later, you will see me.” 17 At this, some of the talmidim said to one another, “What is this that he’s telling us, ‘In a little while, you won’t see me; then, a little while later, you will see me’? and, ‘I am going to the Father’?” 18 They went on saying, “What is this ‘little while’? We don’t understand what he’s talking about.”

Jesus explain why,

25 “I have said these things to you with the help of illustrations; however, a time is coming when I will no longer speak indirectly but will talk about the Father in plain language. 26 When that day comes, you will ask in my name. I am not telling you that I will pray to the Father on your behalf, 27 for the Father himself loves you, because you have loved me and have believed that I came from God.

The biggest problem tho is trying to understand what is Jesus meant by, "Son of God." It is important because "Son of God" refer to one of three consubstantial persons in one essense or nature according to the trinity.

According to John, "12 But to as many as did receive him, to those who put their trust in his person and power, he gave the right to become children of God, 13 not because of bloodline, physical impulse or human intention, but because of God."

So, Son of God can refer to chidren of God which imply anyone can become Son of God who receive and trust God. This is later confirmed by Jesus,"16 Yeshua said to her, “Miryam!” Turning, she cried out to him in Hebrew, “Rabbani!” 17 “Stop holding onto me,” Yeshua said to her, “because I haven’t yet gone back to the Father. But go to my brothers, and tell them that I am going back to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.”"

John continues, "15 He made a whip from cords and drove them all out of the Temple grounds, the sheep and cattle as well. He knocked over the money-changers’ tables, scattering their coins; 16 and to the pigeon-sellers he said, “Get these things out of here! How dare you turn my Father’s house into a market?” 17 (His talmidim later recalled that the Tanakh says, “Zeal for your house will devour me.” ) 18 So the Judeans confronted him by asking him, “What miraculous sign can you show us to prove you have the right to do all this?”"

Jesus said, "My Father's house.." None of the Judeans question him who was his father, instead, they ask what is your right..? So this imply "My Father" is common address to God as common as any christians today addressing God as "Father".

So based on this, I would assume "Son of God" is synonyms to addressing one of devout to teaching God or a Rabbi ( Teacher ). This can be seen throughout the Gospel of John, many people addressing Jesus as "Son of God", as a Rabbi, or sometimes a messiah, instead of literally think him as Son of God in actuality.

The biggest problem and confusing part come later. Not only Jesus claim himself "Son of God" in actuality ( which redeem him death warrant ) but He is the God. Pilate confronted Jesus,

36 Yeshua answered, “My kingship does not derive its authority from this world’s order of things. If it did, my men would have fought to keep me from being arrested by the Judeans. But my kingship does not come from here.” 37 “So then,” Pilate said to him, “You are a king, after all.” Yeshua answered, “You say I am a king. The reason I have been born, the reason I have come into the world, is to bear witness to the truth. Every one who belongs to the truth listens to me.” 38 Pilate asked him, “What is truth?”

Jesus mentioned his Kingdom in Heaven. Now that a serious claim. But there are other more. His apostles worship Jesus, not as Messiah, but as a God. They said,"My Lord, My God"

It's difficult to understand what is Jesus actually trying to say beside his sacrification. He made a lot of contradicting statement about his own status. Sometime he claim himself just an ordinary son of man bath in angel's light. Sometime he claim, 15 “I am the real vine, and my Father is the gardener". Sometime he says, "3 And eternal life is this: to know you, the one true God, and him whom you sent, Yeshua the Messiah."
But that's not all.

24 Someone who doesn’t love me doesn’t keep my words — and the word you are hearing is not my own but that of the Father who sent me.
44 Yeshua declared publicly, “Those who put their trust in me are trusting not merely in me, but in the One who sent me. 45 Also those who see me see the One who sent me.

See.. He likes to talk in circular manner. I'm having very hard time trying to understand this circular statement. Jesus said, "Father who sent me.Those who see me see One who sent me". I take it as, father send him but he is also the one who send himself.

Other time Jesus said, "19 I’m telling you now, before it happens; so that when it does happen, you may believe that I AM"
He said that NOT ONCE, but few times exactly the same "I AM" in contexts when that "I AM" is suppose to be God. It's really puzzling.

I dont know what to make out of this. Make what you will. I can only certain, Jesus is not the teacher we tought he was. He was a lousy teacher with circular talking. He was born a lamb of God spesifically for sacrification. His sole purpose is salvation. But there will other who teach us everything.

25 “I have told you these things while I am still with you. 26 But the Counselor, the Ruach HaKodesh, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you everything; that is, he will remind you of everything I have said to you.

But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I don’t go away, the comforting Counselor will not come to you. However, if I do go, I will send him to you.
8 “When he comes, he will show that the world is wrong about sin, about righteousness and about judgment — 9 about sin, in that people don’t put their trust in me; 10 about righteousness, in that I am going to the Father and you will no longer see me; 11 about judgment, in that the ruler of this world has been judged.
12 “I still have many things to tell you, but you can’t bear them now. 13 However, when the Spirit of Truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own initiative but will say only what he hears. He will also announce to you the events of the future. 14 He will glorify me, because he will receive from what is mine and announce it to you. 15 Everything the Father has is mine; this is why I said that he receives from what is mine and will announce it to you.

a reply to: EasternShadow

I don't think Jesus has a problem (pbuh) to begin with but he speaks in parables, yes.

It's not a problem though it is how he kept from casting pearls before swine.

And doesn't change anything regarding Trinity and the idea that it's a problem that he uses parables is only if you can't understand what he means.

If Christian leaders weren't all either liarsor incredibly inept at reading and interpreting the Bible it would not be a problem, ad you see it as a problem I can agree with you that it is but only because of deceviers in the Church and a total lack of comprehension even at the highest levels of theology because 2,000 years of lies just don't go away easily.

It doesn't have aught to do with Trinity worship, or cancel his pbuh denials to equality with God.

Or make God 3.


There actually are many preachers who are well aware of the massive deceit they are perpetrating but $$$$$ rules them and they don't really care because they probably don't even believe in the Bible.

They don't follow Jesus pbuh but PAUL.

Paul, "If my FALSEHOODS abound to God's glory why am I being judged a sinner?" the false Apostle who doesn't know and never met Jesus pbuh. I would say to Paul: ''Because GOD SAID LYING IS A SIN."

And what need has a (self proclaimed) apostle to lie when he allegedly recieves revelations from Jesus pbuh who doesn't lie?

Because he is a Herodian Jew, which is what Benjaminite is an idiom for as Benjamin wasn't a tribe that existed then it was simply applied to the Herods like Arche-laus/Acher-Saul which means "Another (King) Saul."

Who was half Benjaminite half Canaanite and the Herods Syrians or Edomite.

This is proven, that he is a false prophet, by his teaching that idol meat is Kosher which is specifically condemned BY JESUS pbuh in Revelation.

So he obviously wasn't in communication with Christ pbuh if he was teaching blssphemous doctrines.

Especially since he gave his word he wouldn't do that in Acts to James and that it was a decree of the Holy Spirit.

The problem Christianity has is absolutely an issue of honesty and truth regarding Trinity.

It should have, like Unitarian Churches, confessed that the Romans were wrong.

Faitj isn't just blind.

It's trusting thay your Messiah tells the truth and realizing he'd like you to do the same.

I have seen so much sophistry, insults out of frustration to counter my facts with, all it showed is the Trinitarian either packs knowledge without which there is no truth.

The words are plain the Messiah speaks and yet everyone wants to call Jesus pbuh a liar.

Which is EXACTLY what alleging in the face of incontrovertible evidence to the contrary , thay Jesus pbuh is God is.

Why do people have such a foul need yo lie?

Being wrong is one thing. If you have never seen the sky and think it's blue that's forgivable.

If you are shown the sky and STILL say that you are void of truth and a son of lies.

And you've all seen the proof some denied it some didnt.

All Christian Trinitarians are liars or have never read the Bible because there's no trinity in the Bible

And Jesus is not God.

a reply to: Peeple



What makes God good?

What makes Satan evil?

You are joking right?

God is good because He is good and no reason other than that is necessary.

Satan is evil because he does evil things.


I am sure you thought that a profound question but that is a mistake as if you don't know good from evil you can't avoid evil.

Do you know the difference?

The definitions of the words?

It should be self explanatory


God gives life and eternal life satan leads to Gehenom.

And Trinity worship.

a reply to: EasternShadow
Things get easier when one doesn't try to read a Trinity into Jesus' words.

Jesus perfectly reflects the Father’s personality; hence, living with and observing Jesus is like seeing the Father. After all:

He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; (Col 1:15).

The "I AM" argument is so lame, plenty of people say "I am" all the time. But when other people use the phrase somehow it's not as significant?

John 8:58 (one of the common verses used in relation to this argument) really says:

Jesus said to them: “Most truly I say to you, before Abraham came into existence, I have been.”

No relation to Exodus 3:14,15, which really says:

So God said to Moses: “I Will Become What I Choose* to Become.”* And he added: “This is what you are to say to the Israelites, ‘I Will Become has sent me to you.’” 15 Then God said once more to Moses: “This is what you are to say to the Israelites, ‘Jehovah the God of your forefathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.’ This is my name forever, and this is how I am to be remembered from generation to generation.

1st *: Or “Want.”
2nd *: Or “I Will Prove to Be What I Will Prove to Be.”

The "I AM" translation of the bolded parts is extremely poor in both cases. Only useful for that lame argument that implies that "I AM" is God's name or a title applicable to God and then tries to cherrypick a few times Jesus happened to use the very common phrase "I am" or a grammatical variant like "I was" or "I have been" (often intentionally mistranslated as was done with John 8:58 in many bible translations where you read "I AM" there at the end, which creates a sentence with bad English syntax and grammar showing what is going on here for those who can see this very clearly). God's name is given in Exodus 3:15 as "Jehovah" and "I AM" doesn't appear at all in Exodus 3:14,15 as either a name or a title or a description of what that name means. It's only used at the end of verse 15 there and what that sentence means should speak for itself, it's normal English, not confusing at all. God's name is Jehovah (in English, we're talking English here, I'm also saying Jesus and John) and that is how he is to be remembered from generation to generation.

“In a little while,” Jesus says, “the world will see me no more, but you will see me, because I live and you will live.” (John 14:19) Not only will Jesus appear to them in bodily form after his resurrection but he will, in time, resurrect them to be with him in heaven as spirit creatures.

Source: Jesus​—The Way, the Truth, the Life

a reply to: Disturbinatti
The Nicene Creed is not "more authoritative" than the New Testament. The Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox communions would probably consider it equally authoritative, as an element of Sacred Tradition. Anglicans consider the Bible to be the ultimate authority, but the Nicene Creed "ought thoroughly to be received and believed; for [it] may be proved by most certain warrants of Holy Scripture." High church Protestants probably feel the same. Evangelicals don't even pay attention to the Creed, but generally agree with it. The point is, the Creed's authority is either equal to Scripture because both are expressions of Sacred Tradition, or it is derived from Scripture because it can be proved by Scripture.

The Trinity predates Nicea, of course. The triadic baptismal formula comes from the New Testament, as does the identification of Jesus with both the Logos and with God. In the second century, the Apologists began working out the generation of the Logos, and Irenaeus the economic Trinity. More technical language was developed after that. The Council of Nicea didn't invent any of this stuff. The Council's purpose was to address Arianism, which was a novelty.

a reply to: Disturbinatti

There are millions dieing from violence, starving, getting killed by mundane things like dirty water...where is this "good god"? Why doesn't he help?
Or is to be found anywhere?
So why is your god good? What has he done to make you believe?

a reply to: Peeple

If you think I am going to feel guilty because of something I can't control you are nuts.

If you are a Christian yourself you are stumped by the utter inability of anyone to prove that Jesus pbuh is God or Trinity.

. People have been dying since...ever. People have been at war since 2001. Slandering Islam since 2001. Who am I kidding centuries.

Bet you didn't know forced conversion is a crime in the Qur'an, I bet you think Islam really is represented by the deeds of ISIS.

Women aren't oppressed. Except in Western sponsored S.A. where IslamISM Wahhabism is the law of the land.

Iran is a beautiful country, happy people. Educate women, but still gets slandered. And I am not even Shia but I don't care Christians are mostly liars I'm sorry if that upsets you however it's true.

Or too lazy to read the New Testament and ACTUALLY do what Jesus pbuh said to.

But you think I don't see propaganda every day slandering my religion at the same time these people die?

They blame victims. Christians, not all, just most. They lie. Number 1 group of people who lie about religions but especially mine.

I am just sticking to the facts you are trying to enrage me because I exposed deception.

I don't care about exposing liars you make me want to do it more.

Sabbatean Jews running Saudi Arabia who are loyal to Zionists and America forms a...Trinity.

A real one!

You aren't supposed to be allowed to charge interest in Islam but Saudis do. They are Sabbatean. They rewrote the law do banks could oppress the Arabian peninsula like in other countries.

Islam doesn't oppress women. Believe in killing over matters of religion. But Christians need to justify their hypocrisy so they believe anything negative and never stop lying.

I am not going to feel guilty because I can without lying or propaganda prove Christianity is pagan idolatry because worshipping people falls under said definition and trinity is polytheism.


Get a job ya bum.


So now you want to cry about it? Maybe if the Christians of America instead of creating massive amounts of propaganda to slander my religion worried about the lives people of which you speak a long time ago I would hear you out.

Actually I would not. Debating isn't a crime.

Honesty isn't a crime.

This is a debate and you are just foolish for thinking that you are doing anything different than me.

You are online.

I am too.

What's your point? You don't like my non war related topic and bring it up thinking that I am going to suddenly feel guilty for telling the truth?


NEVER!

a reply to: Disturbinatti

No. Just pointing out that at some point god will have to pick sides. Show a flag, like "wow he really made a life & death miracle happen here" story might be proof he decided to "step in".
Where are those stories? I only see people suffering. Why is that?

a reply to: Peeple

I am pointing out you are a fool.

Stay on topic from now or you will be ignored.

This is a religous debate.

Not a political or war debate.

a reply to: Disturbinatti

I am on topic. The ultimate question you are asking is "who is good, who is evil? If god is real is he good and Satan evil?", then I say, cards on the table, whose position is the most benefitting in this life I currently have to live, why do I have to be patient and hope I die tomorrow? How is that beneficial for my "good gawd"?

As catholic I'm alienated by this

hand in hand with this


Schizophrenic? Or saying the suffering is good, because otherwise I would be obsolete? Her purpose in life is to make people happier, therefore her subconsciousness supports the people being more miserable than she is? To keep the "customers" of her "feel good kick" coming?
Or is it simply because God is a dick?

a reply to: Peeple

Asked and answered

a reply to: whereislogic



I already explained to you the difference between saying ''I am" and " I am GOD."

You care nothing for the truth, ignore it entirely.

As I told seede more words don't make you more right.

Neither do fallacious arguments you are only repeating, because you can't figure out how to show that what you believe is what Jesus pbuh said and taught.

It is not and I'm well past proving it but willing to do it again and again and again.