Nicene Creed

I was just a moment ago wondering why it is that the Nicene Creed is more authoritative than the New Testament as it has remained the majority of Christians belief since the Council of Nicea, a mysterious Council indeed.

It was declared at that council that Jesus (pbuh) is God the Son and God the Father and the Holy Spirit form a "Holy Trinity" 3 entities constituting one l "God." Equal(s).

But it doesn't quite match what Jesus (pbuh) said himself.

For example in Mark:

"The Lord OUR God is ONE God worship Him with all your heart.."

Doesn't leave any heart for Jesus (pbuh) to be worshipped with, "All" is all and that means nothing is left once dedicated in full to the God of Jesus (pbuh) and "Our" God.

I would say it sounds like a conspiracy was afoot to enforce the law of a state religion making it essentially illegal to worship God alone with all your heart and impossible to do so.

Only Satan could concoct such a devious scheme, but the men at the Council with power were, willing, witting or not, complicit.

To make matters worse this forms one part of the two part "Greatest Commandments."


1. The Bible doesn't say Jesus (pbuh) is God, he denies it

2. Trinity is a human innovation in a religous context where it violates the scripture it says it comes from.

And for 1600 years almost every Church is Trinitarian. There has in fact been a huge conspiracy to fool people that the Bible does actually teach this.

But it doesn't.

That's a Conspiracy by definition.

Very interesting. I will have to look into this. I'm thinking of becoming a Christian, but still pray to God himself just in case...

a reply to: Disturbinatti

Bullcrap



In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made."

"And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth."

I said therefore to you, that you shall die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am, you shall die in your sins."

"Jesus said to them, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM.'"

"I and the Father are one."

"For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form."

"Jesus heard that they had put him out; and finding him, He said, "Do you believe in the Son of Man?" 36 He answered and said, "And who is He, Lord, that I may believe in Him?" 37 Jesus said to him, "You have both seen Him, and He is the one who is talking with you." 38 And he said, "Lord, I believe." And he worshiped Him."

a reply to: infolurker

Why did Jesus appeal to God then when on the cross? Why have you forsaken me?

If they were the same entity why the need to appeal?

Just asking...

originally posted by: WeLovePutin
Very interesting. I will have to look into this. I'm thinking of becoming a Christian, but still pray to God himself just in case...

What do you think would be the benefit of becoming christian? Especially in light of the OP.

a reply to: Disturbinatti

The nicene creed is basically an affirmation that you will accept any nonsense a priest might try to inflict on you.

Jesus said that his Father (God) was greater than he was while at the same time saying that they were "one".

The idea behind this is represented very well by a loaf of bread. You have the whole loaf then the slices of it.

Do you go to the store and say "I want some slices of bread"? Of course not, you say "I want a loaf of bread". The loaf is greater than the individual slices yet the slices are what constitute the loaf and vice versa.

We are each a slice of the universal loaf. The universe is greater than the individual yet the individual is still what contains and constitutes the whole loaf.

What are the 3 main aspects of a family? The father, mother, and child. Without the 2 parents the 1 child would not be there.

When 2 come together they are made into 1 which is the Trinity: Mother (what the church calls the Holy Spirit), Father and Son. The Mother representing the material or "outside" world, the Father representing the immaterial or "inner" world (thoughts etc.), and the Son being the "in-between" or image that is created at birth from a new perspective being formed.

Three characteristics creating one God which is life itself and light.

originally posted by: Terminal1
a reply to: infolurker

Why did Jesus appeal to God then when on the cross? Why have you forsaken me?

If they were the same entity why the need to appeal?

Just asking...

When Jesus went to the cross, He took the sins of all people, throughout all time, upon Himself. He bore our sins in His own body (1 Pet 2:24). He who knew no sin, became sin for us (2 Cor 5:21).

Sin does causes separation between Himself and the sinner. It appears that when Jesus took the sin of all people upon Himself, a separation came between Him and God that had never before existed.

So when Jesus cried out, “Why have you forsaken me?” it was because He was experiencing a temporary brokenness in His relationship with God the Father that they had never before experienced.

a reply to: Disturbinatti

I don't see the Nicea creed as more authoritative than the preserved word of God and never will.

a reply to: infolurker

So when Jesus cried out, “Why have you forsaken me?” it was because He was experiencing a temporary brokenness in His relationship with God the Father that they had never before experienced.

Why would he be experiencing said seperation when he was doing Gods will?

Said argument kinda falls apart when you actually look at the situation

originally posted by: Akragon
a reply to: infolurker

So when Jesus cried out, “Why have you forsaken me?” it was because He was experiencing a temporary brokenness in His relationship with God the Father that they had never before experienced.

Why would he be experiencing said seperation when he was doing Gods will?

Said argument kinda falls apart when you actually look at the situation

The Trinity is something we as humans dont understand.
Ak hates Jehovah, Muslims dont accept that Christ is the Messiah
Of course there is going to be a disconnect between what christians believe and those of other choices

Anyway
Answer: “And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?” (Matthew 27:46, KJV). This cry is a fulfillment of Psalm 22:1, one of many parallels between that psalm and the specific events of the crucifixion. It is difficult to understand in what sense Jesus was “forsaken” by God. It is certain that God approved His work. It is certain that Jesus was innocent. He had done nothing to forfeit the favor of God. As God’s own Son—holy, harmless, undefiled, and obedient—God still loved Him. In none of these senses could God have forsaken Him.www.christianitytoday.com...

So quite possibly it was about fulfilling prophecy

or maybe it was just a human response to the pain He was suffering, maybe as an indication to His church that while they may feel forsaken, there is a hope in the future.

I dont know who thinks the Nicene creed is any more authoritative than the New Testament other than yourself? thats a very strange comment/assumption to make
Why do you ask that
As a christian I dont believe it is my creed at all

Not that I dont agree with it, I just dont have religious creeds

originally posted by: WeLovePutin
Very interesting. I will have to look into this. I'm thinking of becoming a Christian, but still pray to God himself just in case...

You can't go wrong with that.

If you want to be a Christian, be a Christian.

The Bible doesn't support Church doctrine of Trinity or provide evidence that Jesus pbuh is God and provides proof he is not. Be prepared to be endlessly decieved and argued with even rejected for not accepting the Trinity that Jesus pbuh made clear isn't real that "Our God...."

Me, you, Jesus (pbuh) have the same God.

"Is one God."

Don't let the Nicene Creed deflect you from the truth of what is essentially a universal religion of love until Paul shows up and that's a different story but my advice is stick with the Gospels and the 12 Apostles because there is no 13th and someone claimed to be that and was rejected by "All those who are in Asia."

Meaning the Apostolic Churches of Revelation, the 7 Churches of Asia.

He admits this and James, Jude and 2 Peter all contain rebukes of Paul's doctrine of faith without works being salvation and his notion that angels ordained the Law when it was God according to all ancient and modern traditions including the Apocryphal Jubilees and the Torah itself.

Christianity doesn't like to address that either.

It's really hard to practice the religion OF Christ, Nazarene Judaism, Ebionitism whatever you want to call "Jewish Christianity" for 2 reasons that are related.

Nicene Creed and Paul's rambling letters being forced into the religion of the people he persecuted overtly then covertly then both.

I am a Muslim mainly for that reason. Paul and the Trinity.

The Qur'an actually doesn't much disagree with the Gospel and is closer to the teachings of Jesus (pbuh) than Christianity is in truth because of those 2 reasons and many more.

a reply to: infolurker



The Word was with Tontheon and the Word was theos.

Is what it really says.

In other words the Word was Divine.

Like John the Divine/Theos.

Not "God" as it is dishonestly translated.

Nice try though.


If you thought I was not prepared for every single possible objection you were mistaken.

It's not a challenge.

a reply to: Disturbinatti

I like the Qurans instructions on marriage...
Aisha comes to mind...

As to the op, the council of nicea was essentially a romanization of Christianity...
That is truly the entirety of its intent and the results were predictable..

Rome was the city of light and it stood to reason that any religion would do well to copy the Roman model...
Centralized power in Rome followed...you can't overstate the amount of influence Roman sensibilities had on early Christian doctrine..

-Chris

originally posted by: infolurker
a reply to: Disturbinatti

Bullcrap



In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made."

"And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth."

I said therefore to you, that you shall die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am, you shall die in your sins."

"Jesus said to them, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM.'"

"I and the Father are one."

"Of my own power I can do nothing."

''About the times...only the Father knows."

''Only God is good."

Not third person speech he was talking about God. He denies equality and is only "one" with his (metaphorical Father as the Holy Spirit was Mother in Gospel of the Hebrews) "Father" in Islam, that is, to do God's Will the literal definition of Islam, submission (to God's Will).

Not equal. At this point it's polytheism to worship a created being dependent upon God.

Not equal. Jesus pbuh gets his power FROM God but isn't God.

Ever hear of a metaphor?

He also said "God is ONE."

Not 2 or 3.

"For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form."

"Jesus heard that they had put him out; and finding him, He said, "Do you believe in the Son of Man?" 36 He answered and said, "And who is He, Lord, that I may believe in Him?" 37 Jesus said to him, "You have both seen Him, and He is the one who is talking with you." 38 And he said, "Lord, I believe." And he worshiped Him."

Such an odd statement since "Son of man" is a regular Hebrew idiom for son of Adam, a human.

Not an idiom for God. Ezekiel was called that too. Is he God?

Something tells me you didn't provide Chapter and verse for a reason.


You have done nothing at all in the way of proving the unprovable because it's impossible to reconcile Trinity with the words of Jesus pbuh even when you take them out of context as is always done.

To no truthful effect.

I am curious...did people think that this was actually debatable?

That shows how far removed from comprehension of or even knowledge of the contents of, the Bible, Christians are.

A deliberate mistranslation in Luke, a misunderstanding over the meaning of a son of Adam/man, and some curious but far from claims being God statements siezed upon for their obscure subtext and context are the best anyone can do to "prove" Trinity is real.

It never actually does though and often, like with John 1, proves the OPPOSITE.

If the Bible said it, Nicea's Creed, there would have been no need for the council or Creed.

a reply to: Disturbinatti

Why do you say this
Its a lie
Its not church doctrine its new testament scripture, a new testament that Muslims dont believe in.

Not James, Jude and 2 Peter contain rebukes of Paul's doctrine of faith without works, they agree with faith without works leads to salvation.
They just say WORKS is EVIDENCE of SALVATION, proof of salvation
They dont say works leads to salvation, GET THAT, They dont say works leads to salvation
You are reading it the wrong way around, like a Muslim who hates christianity would

The Quaran is a book of dung that Muslims worship as much as their prophet.
Idolaters of the book called the quaran, their paper messiah

I dont know who thinks the Nicene creed is any more authoritative than the New Testament other than yourself? thats a very strange comment/assumption to make
Why do you ask that

As for the Trinity, its traced back to Judaism, yeah those peoples you or your religion at the very least want dead...
OT
Genesis 1:26
Genesis 19:24
Isaiah 6
Isaiah 40-55
Isaiah 45:23-24
Micah 5:2
NT
Mark 2:5-12
John 1:1
John 5:18
John 8:58
John 10:33
John 12:41 + Isaiah 6
John 19:7
Romans 14:11
Philippians 2:1-2
Philippians 2:9-11
Revelation 22:3
www.bible.ca...

But hey, you just go on trashing our God.
Its ok by me, you Muslims have no respect for others as I have noted by your actions

a reply to: Raggedyman

The Trinity is something we as humans dont understand.

thats because its not biblical... but Christianity tries to shoehorn it into the bible

a reply to: Raggedyman


Why don't you slow down.

Show me "Trinity" or that Jesus pbuh didn't say "The Lord OUR God is ONE God worship Him with all your heart "

And we can talk.

"Our" is stating that God is His God as He is to us. Simply put Jesus pbuh HAS A GOD.

So can't BE God. Simple stuff really.

I see you are a fundamentalist who actually thinks the Bible says these things so I won't worry about you. If you can't tell that Jesus pbuh denied being God I can't help you.

Only Allah/God/Hashem can.

originally posted by: Akragon
a reply to: Raggedyman

The Trinity is something we as humans dont understand.

thats because its not biblical... but Christianity tries to shoehorn it into the bible

Thank you!

The Bible is NOT the source of Trinitarianism.


Egypt is. They always worshipped in trinities. Even in Hellenistic Egypt.