Plot holes in the bible and what the motivation for it would be

a reply to: whereislogic



There is no Lucifer who cares?

It was a misunderstanding or worse a deliberate misinterpretation.

We know that there is no Lucifer in Judaism, no rebel angel that is adverse to God.


There was one incident before the flood involving the "Sons of Elohim" who originally were understood to be Sons of Seth, the daughters of man of Cain.

Jubilees and 1 Enoch together confirm this.

Later they were reinterpreted as "Watchers" or in the Masoretic "Judges", literally, where earlier was Sons of Elohim, Judges replaced Elohim.

That's the source of the fallen angel myth.


Lucifer is plain stupidity. Halal ben Shachar is not a name​ but is a person, not Lucifer.

The King of Babylon.

Islam has Iblis, but not the myth of trying to usurp God's throne, just a refusal to bow to his creation and expulsion with a stay of execution sentence dooming him eternally.

It's independent of the Lucifer myth, unique to Islam.

The major Pot hole in the Bible is the introduction of genesis Chapter two, Lord God, The garden of eden and the story about Adam and the woman.

a reply to: spy66

That is explained thus...

Adam had a first wife, Lilith, who refused to be subordinate and was eventually made, or made herself rather by using the YHVH/Hashem, into a demoness, succubus like creature responsible for the death of infants and nocturnal emissions are even said to produce her children, are caused by her.

The story where Eve is from Adam's rib is a sequential tale, a tale of the dual and equal creation of man and woman from earth. Or an Androgyne, Adam Kadmon, Primal Man.

And a second where she is from his rib because of the "defect" in Lilith.

Rather sexist, but, it's the Bible.

Qur'an maintains their equality in even the forbidden fruit, equal blame is given, Eve is not blamed for Adam, Adam is for Adam, Eve for Eve.

a reply to: Martin75

Interesting point. How you phrased it suggests that you believe.

So you in turn are maybe saying why bother questioning it? then the obvious response is why not?

I have to say curiosity is the a real gift. If one never questions one will never know. It's true that in my search understanding may cause me either great grief/sadness/pain. I believe it would be better to understand then to remain ignorant.

Let's not forget that there are a multitude of people that truly know and understand the questions I'm talking about. Understanding these questions may give a much greater insight how countless other think and perceive the world. Now that would be a wonderful thing.

The plot holes that are in all my examples rely on is the fact that God is both fallible and regretful in the OT. From my understanding God is supposed to be omniscient and infallible therefore how can he make mistakes.

The reasonable answer was that OT God did make mistakes. If this were true all of my arguments get blown out of the water.

any who, if anyone has been reading the entirety of this thread you would know that Judaism, Christianity, and Islam have very similar stories and teachings. Although between them there are some variations currently I'm starting to read a number of books to give me some insight into the connections between these three. Once I have a better grasp of that then I might be able to ask some more interesting questions. It would be more related to the differences between them and why that might be. You'll have to wait and see.

As for a curious difference between the Quran and the Bible I came across this:

According to the Bible, after visiting Abraham, two angels go to the city of Sodom in which Abraham's nephew Lot is a foreigner. They tell him God will soon destroy the city because of the wickedness of the people. The men of the city, upon hearing that Lot is entertaining male visitors, converge upon his house and demand that the men be brought out so that they can have sex with them. Lot offers his daughters in their place, but the men insist upon raping the angels instead. After blinding the city's inhabitants, the angels tell Lot and his family to flee by night and to not look back. The following morning, God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah with a shower of fiery stones from the sky. Lot's wife looked back to see the burning city and was turned into a pillar of salt.[27]

The story continues further after the destruction of the twin cities, with Lot leaving Zoar (where he had fled for refuge) with his two daughters to live in a cave.[28] Fearing that all the men were dead, the daughters decided that in order to 'preserve the seed of their father' and procreate, they must have sexual intercourse with him;[29] they decide to get him into a drunken stupor so as to be able to 'lie with him' and obtain his seed.[30] And so they each sleep with their father (one each on successive nights), having intoxicated him to a point wherein he could 'perceive not',[31][32][33] and thus get impregnated by him. The Bible then continues "And the firstborn bare a son, and called his name Moab: the same is the father of the Moabites unto this day. And the younger, she also bare a son, and called his name Ben-ammi: the same is the father of the children of Ammon unto this day".[34][35] The Biblical story of Lot ends here

For the Quran:

According to the Quran, Lot (or Lut, as he is called in the Quran) was a Prophet. He was also a nephew of Prophet Ibrahim (Abraham).[citation needed] A group of Angels visited Ibrahim as guests[36] and gave him glad tidings of a son "endowed with wisdom";[37][38] they told him that they had been sent by God to the "guilty people"[39] of Sodom,[40] to destroy them[41][42] with "a shower of stones of clay (brimstone)"[43] and deliver Lot and those who believed in him. However, Lot's wife was specifically excluded, with the angels saying "she is of those who lag behind".[44][45] The Quran draws upon Lot's wife as an "example for the unbelievers", as she was married to a righteous man but refused to believe in his words; hence, she was condemned to the Hellfire;[46] otherwise, the story of them leaving the city proceeds much as in the Bible. The story of Lot in the Quran ends after describing the destruction of the city.

Key differences:

In both the Bible and in the Quran, Abraham pleads for God to have mercy (Quran11:75; Gen. 18:24–33). In Genesis, God agrees to spare Sodom if just ten righteous men can be found there (but they are not found). In the Quran, God commands Abraham not to ask for mercy on them. 11:76

In the Quran, Lot is described a prophet, like his uncle Abraham. In Genesis (Genesis 19:1–29), Lot is not described as a prophet. In the New Testament, (2 Peter 2:7,8) Peter the Apostle describes Lot as a righteous man who was daily tormented by the lawless deeds he saw in Sodom.

In Genesis, Lot's wife leaves with Lot but turns around briefly and God turns her into a pillar of salt (Gen. 19:26). In the Quran, there is no mention of her leaving; rather Lot and his followers were commanded by the angels not to turn, but Lot is informed that his wife will turn and look behind (quran hud 11:123), and thus be destroyed with the rest of the two cities. 11:81

Following the destruction of Sodom, the Bible describes an incestous event between Lot and his two daughters, at his daughters' behest, in Genesis 19:30-38. The Quran does not describe any such event, and Muslims reject any such occurrence .[

No Plot holes here but its very interesting the difference between these stories. The Incest got me I don't remember hearing about that if you want to see the link for yourself here its is:
Wiki Link

a reply to: whereislogic

I'm open to discussion but in order to carry a proper dialogue your going to have to explain some things first.

You have a limited understanding how God's foreknowledge of events works

So please explain how it works.

"He created angels he knew would rebel just to send them to hell."

Well, that's totally based on misunderstanding or misinterpretations of what the bible is actually teaching about God and those angels that rebelled, or the Pagan concept of Hell that was adopted into Christendom, which is not Christianity.

Could you explain why Hell is not apart of Christianity?
Cloud you also explain the correct interpretation/understanding of this section?
Also in Christianity are Lucifer and Satan one and the same?

I'm currently unable to watch videos for various technical reasons. could you give a TLDR of the video you sent me.
sorry for the inconvenience.

a reply to: DiaJax
Here are some links to previous commentary I've made about these subjects with links in those comments to more commentary and articles where either me or others have done what you just asked for (you can also find the information without my help btw, the keywords are: Predestination; Fatalism; Foreknowledge; Foreordination; Free Will; Lucifer; Satan and Hell):

Do we really have free will? (ATS thread, more than 1 comment)
Belief in free will is equivalent to believing in...
Does going to heaven make you ... (see comment with links about hell)

Questions From Readers: • Is Lucifer a name that the Bible uses for Satan?
This is just the conclusion, for the evidence and reasons you'll have to click the link:

...
The pride of the Babylonian rulers indeed reflected the attitude of “the god of this system of things”—Satan the Devil. (2 Corinthians 4:4) He too lusts for power and longs to place himself above Jehovah God. But Lucifer is not a name Scripturally given to Satan.

a reply to: whereislogic

Thanks.

I only ask for the information because its not uncommon for someone to come into a thread and go "your wrong" and then just leave , without actually explaining themselves properly.

Also because I'm not a true believer you may be privy to information that might not be able to easily locate.

Finally because you are the one making the argument it would seem reasonable you would also be the one to provide information for your argument.

Thank you for this information.

a reply to: Martin75

Your whole trail of thought is flawed for one reason..free will.

You don’t get to tell someone their entire argument is flawed and just offer two words in explanation.

Can you even prove that free will exists?

a reply to: DiaJax
Don't miss out on this one:
Foreknowledge, Foreordination: Insight, Volume 1
I'd give you the highlights that are relevant to the bolded part in my quotation of you (opening of my 1st comment here) but there's just no succinct way of doing it. The key part starts at "Does God know in advance everything that people will do?" but I do not recommend skipping past "Factors to Recognize." before reading that section, it's not entitled that way for nothing. And then you might as well read the introduction as well and all the rest to get the full picture. At least I recommend reading all the way to and including the section that is entitled:

"Selective exercise of foreknowledge."

a reply to: whereislogic

Well looks like I got more reading on my plate. Thanks for this.

a reply to: whereislogic

Good stuff. But rather than sending the poor OP hunting after old ATS threads and exegeses by the Jehovah's Witnesses, could you just give us your view on one point about which the OP is curious: was the God of the Olf Testament omnipotent and infallible, or not?

A one-word answer if you wish, though more would be appreciated.

originally posted by: Disturbinatti
a reply to: DiaJax


Pastors don't want their flocks knowing what IS in the Bible.

More like Rabbis don't want their flocks using the New Testament to show that Jesus was spoken about throughout the Old Testament and is indeed God himself.

originally posted by: Astyanax
a reply to: DiaJax

This is the old testament and God says " I regret I have made Saul King". This strikes me as odd why would God regret anything.

It happens a lot in the Old Testament. The idea that God is omnipotent and infallible came a lot later in history. The God of the OT is just a garden-variety Bronze Age tribal deity. The only thing distinguishing Yahweh from the rest is that his followers worshipped him exclusively.

No surprise that most people don't understand the context of the word "regret" in these instances. From the beginning, it's been God's plan to allow people to make mistakes in order to learn from them. It has happened from the beginning, as in the Garden of Eden. All of it was part of God's plan for people to understand human error and the constant need for a savior, which they would never find in human form or by following fallen angels as pagan gods.

originally posted by: EasternShadow
Lucifer is a Latin word, derived from Hebrew, hê·lêl.

Isaiah 14:12 King James Version (KJV) : 12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

Isaiah 14:12 New International Version (NIV) : 12 How you have fallen from heaven, morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations!

Isaiah 14:12 New Century Version (NCV) : 12 King of Babylon, morning star, you have fallen from heaven, even though you were as bright as the rising sun! In the past all the nations on earth bowed down before you, but now you have been cut down.

Yeshayah 14:12 Orthodox Jewish Bible (OJB) : 12 How art thou fallen from Shomayim, O Heilel Ben Shachar (Bright One of the Dawn, Day Star, Lucifer)! How art thou cast down to the earth, thou, which hast laid low the Goyim!

Lucifer ( Morning star, Day star ) is not an Angel. It's a title to the King of Babylon in the eve of fallen Babylonian Empire. It has nothing to do with God, Heaven, Angel, Devil etc..

Some idiots later link Isaiah 14:12 to Luke 10:18 He replied, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven."

So the plot hole here is not created by God but by idiot men themselves.

Throughout the Bible, the name of Lucifer and Satan are used to describe the spiritual nature behind evil committed by others. Just like when Jesus stated to the disciple Peter, "Get behind me Satan", in Matthew 16:23.

a reply to: DiaJax

The only holes in the Bible are things like, "what does the abode of God, the third heaven look like", "why is it angles always look like men and never ever are said to have wings", "why is it in the second verse of the first book of the Bible there is a universal flood so vast there is water on and above the earth, while we are told in Prov 8:22-24 that water originally was never on the earth but in fountains" and "why is the earth older than 6,000 years?"

And after deep contemplation upon the word of God, the preserved word of God, not the plethora of renditions out there today, the only conclusion is it has nothing to do with man and his condition in the here and now. Which is what the Bible is for, mankind and God's reason for making it habitable for man in Genesis 3-31. The Bible hints but never delves too deeply in the other worldly biblical things that are outside the realm of man.

Prayer wouldn't be rewarding otherwise.

The baby boomers did it. "Figure it out yourselves you god damned ingrates". Why can't god do it?

Seriously.. Why would information be missing from a story? Ask the 9-11 commission. Oh yeah 911 didn't happen its a hoax just like religion so no need to get to the bottom of anything! Right!?

a reply to: BigBangWasAnEcho

I needed that!

a reply to: Astyanax
God is fittingly described as omnipotent. But it is important how you interpret or use the word "omnipotent". The God described in the bible is all-powerful or almighty, but He still can't do just anything you can imagine. God cannot lie. God also cannot act wickedly or make mistakes (i.e. He is infallible). God can also not be party to a lie (one of the main reasons he has not intervened yet on a global scale, it would make him party to a lie, the lie that humans can govern themselves succesfully without God's help and without following God's directions, Satan's lie). The only way to prove Satan wrong conclusively or provide sufficient evidence for the observer is to let it play out. For this God has set an appointed timeframe and according to the signs described in the bible we are nearing the end of that timeframe. One of the most significant prophecies related to this is the destruction of Satan's main tool for manipulating humans: false religion, Babylon the Great. Which occurs shortly before Armageddon (a battle). Something to keep your eyes on.