Will the europeans ever be powerful?

tell him that the kentucky mechanic doesnt know that every peice of rocket tech the US invented the germans got there first.
And by every type i mean every type, a2a, a2s , g2g and A2G missiles.

America was designing all of this on its own. We encorporated German technology. By your logic all of you Europeans stole planes from America because they were invented here...

Most likely from japan and korea, since most tech is comeing from there and most probably from russia to if there was an attack.
The US only gets its best tech from abroad you all know that

That's why all of Japan's military is downgraded American technology, right? Making a laptop is a lot different then making top of the line military hardware.

Well lets see, US task force engaged by defending forces with terain and ground support advantage.
Also the russians hold the key to takeing out your fleet, sun burn missiles

Yea, a single unproven anti-ship missile is going to destroy the entire fleet...

Haven't I already mentioned the new missile defense system being equipped to the American fleet designed to stop threats just like the Sunburn, as well as future threats? The SeaRAM is far more effective then the Phalanx. It has successfully intercepted supersonic anti-ship missiles 95% of the time.

I'm not sure why that is revelvant, corporations can hire people to work for them regardless of their nationality and that list certainly shows it. The list was of individuals not the companies they worked for. Just pointing out that Europe has a decent education system as do most other 1st world nations. That was the point of my post, all this my country is better than yours BS is rediculas.

How many of the people on your list were around in the last half century?

Originally posted by devilwaspTell me again how if we dont have the best tech, how we invented the jump jet?Actually no, the US is haveing to redesign the whole man to moon thing.

Well first of all the Jump Jets you now fly are actually McDonnell Douglas AV8B's or versions thereof now that your great leaders have decommissioned the Sea Harrier....but the F22 would have no problem with anything the Europeans have on the boards or in the air including the Typoon...

As for the moon, we are not necessarily wanting to go back to there, that is just the jump off point to mars.....moon? been there done that..

Originally posted by devilwasp tell him that the kentucky mechanic doesnt know that every peice of rocket tech the US invented the germans got there first.And by every type i mean every type, a2a, a2s , g2g and A2G missiles.

Well lets see the Germans use Sparrows, AMRAAMS, Sidewinders, yup I guess your right there, btw I wonder what SAMS they have on their ships? STANDARDS if you want to know.....at least long range anyway..

Originally posted by devilwaspMost likely from japan and korea, since most tech is comeing from there and most probably from russia to if there was an attack.The US only gets its best tech from abroad you all know that

You are mistaken and very bad I might add.......Japan is great at copying but not inventing......but it is all multinational corporations now anyway, I wonder why the Japanese bought AEGIS?

Originally posted by devilwaspJapan, ever wonder why everything comes out there first?

Like what?

Originally posted by devilwaspWell lets see, US task force engaged by defending forces with terain and ground support advantage.Also the russians hold the key to takeing out your fleet, sun burn missiles

If you understood naval warfare you would understand the comment of the RAM or even what the hell a shipwreck is... those are far more deadly and are not exported.......I understand Naval warfare and these two missiles are deadly but not near as much as you make them to be. You think the US would put $20 billion in hardware in harms way if they didn't have a counter to them? What you read is what the Navy wants you to know, they need more funding...



[edit on 14-2-2005 by edsinger]

"Well Klaus, what do you think of the great German engineering now?"

to which Klaus, good friend of mine said,

"Well just how many Steel mills are you Americans building these days?"

to which the Kentuckian said,

"Just how many Space Shuttles are you Kraut's flying these days?"

Latter that night over a beer, ol Klaus even admitted, that was a burn he had no recovery to........

How many you got flying Ed?



Anyway, this topic has gone sour, with alot of falseness and outright lies from both sides, which is why I stopped posting. If we are going to argue ladies, please back it up with some evidence, instead of this pointless swaggering.

Originally posted by Disturbed Deliverer

I'm not sure why that is revelvant, corporations can hire people to work for them regardless of their nationality and that list certainly shows it. The list was of individuals not the companies they worked for. Just pointing out that Europe has a decent education system as do most other 1st world nations. That was the point of my post, all this my country is better than yours BS is rediculas.

How many of the people on your list were around in the last half century?

If i knew a list of individuals of the calibre of the people in that list i would most certainly post their names. Now days most discoveries are made by larger groups of people or are not nearly as beakthrough as the discoveries made by the people on that list. I'm sure that any list of great minds in any century would include people from more than just one nation.

[edit on 14-2-2005 by Trent]

Originally posted by stumasonHow many you got flying Ed?

Well since safety is a concern that should be one about 2 months from now, but lets see 1970's technology 8086 chips......and how many have you FLOWN?

Originally posted by Disturbed Deliverer
By your logic all of you Europeans stole planes from America because they were invented here...

- Well I suggest you take that one up with the Englishman Sir George Cayley and German Otto Lilienthal.

They invented it all first.
Everthing else that followed was about light-weight construction materials and refinement.

Originally posted by edsinger
Well since safety is a concern that should be one about 2 months from now, but lets see 1970's technology 8086 chips......and how many have you FLOWN?

- Hi ed, been a while. Recovered from your election politicing?

You can keep your 8086 chip sets etc. Pity you found so little use for the Shuttle's one outstanding and utterly unique attribute (the in orbit servicing, upgrading or return to earth of satellites).
Damn shame about Hubble being junked too, what a senseless waste.

Anyhoo, we Europeans prefer an advanced proper seriously heavy lifting system, to make a lot of money with it and to have reliable non-lethal systems where possible www.esa.int....

When we need to bother with a manned flight we'll hitch a ride with either you guys or the Russians and go use the parts of the Orbiting Space Station that are ours. Cos we were great when you wanted our funding, right?

Originally posted by edsinger
Well first of all the Jump Jets you now fly are actually McDonnell Douglas AV8B's or versions thereof now that your great leaders have decommissioned the Sea Harrier

Actually its built by BAe and A&AEE.
Look it up.

....but the F22 would have no problem with anything the Europeans have on the boards or in the air including the Typoon...

Ofcourse, thats cause it was desgned in the cold war.

As for the moon, we are not necessarily wanting to go back to there, that is just the jump off point to mars.....moon? been there done that..

Really, last time i checked there was quite a lot of controversy surounding it.
Any how, getting to the moon is an acheivement in its own, it doesnt matter who got there first its getting there that matters.

Well lets see the Germans use Sparrows, AMRAAMS, Sidewinders, yup I guess your right there, btw I wonder what SAMS they have on their ships? STANDARDS if you want to know.....at least long range anyway..
[/qutoe]
....why am i careing?
All I said was that the US copied german tech nothing else.

You are mistaken and very bad I might add.......Japan is great at copying but not inventing......but it is all multinational corporations now anyway, I wonder why the Japanese bought AEGIS?

I dont think so since they can quite easily make good tech.
Sony laptops and the such are among the best in the world.
AEGIS is regarded as the best in world, so your saying cause they have bought tech from other countries they dont invent thier own?

Like what?

Basically most of the tech in the world, from computer games to laptops and from cell phones to palm tops.

If you understood naval warfare you would understand the comment of the RAM or even what the hell a shipwreck is... those are far more deadly and are not exported.......I understand Naval warfare and these two missiles are deadly but not near as much as you make them to be. You think the US would put $20 billion in hardware in harms way if they didn't have a counter to them? What you read is what the Navy wants you to know, they need more funding...

Whoa there, now your saying you coat your ships in RAM paint. A shipwreck is a sunken boat, wtf are YOU on about?
Lets see what defenses does the US task force have against sunburns?
NONE, the phalanx and sea sparrow are all.
Also if you understand naval warfare then you would understand that any missile attack is deadly if not dealt with quickly.

Originally posted by Disturbed Deliverer
America was designing all of this on its own. We encorporated German technology. By your logic all of you Europeans stole planes from America because they were invented here...

And by my logic america stole the designs from europe since we invented the first plane but never got it flying.

That's why all of Japan's military is downgraded American technology, right?

Lets see, and what sanctions have been on japan for makeing weapons?

Making a laptop is a lot different then making top of the line military hardware.

If you have the tech to make a laptop you have the tech to make a top of the line weapon, unless of course you think military programmers are specially trained by the militray and they dont use civilians to write the codes.....

Yea, a single unproven anti-ship missile is going to destroy the entire fleet...
[/qutoe]
No defense are there, and as you keep saying the SAM missiles dont stand a chance at stopping them....

Haven't I already mentioned the new missile defense system being equipped to the American fleet designed to stop threats just like the Sunburn, as well as future threats? The SeaRAM is far more effective then the Phalanx. It has successfully intercepted supersonic anti-ship missiles 95% of the time.
[/qutoe]
This new missile is completely diffrent from other ones, it is faster and dealier, hell the seaRAM doesnt have time to fire before its been hit.

Just a quick question. Does anyone on here really believe that if Europe had the Money and Political will to build a space shuttle they would not have the technological capability to do so?????? European Technology is not always in the Milatry field but things like engine manufacture, marine and offshore, telecoms etc.

Originally posted by paperplane_uk
Just a quick question. Does anyone on here really believe that if Europe had the Money and Political will to build a space shuttle they would not have the technological capability to do so?????? European Technology is not always in the Milatry field but things like engine manufacture, marine and offshore, telecoms etc.

Isn't Bransons SpaceShipOne a shuttle of sorts or could be perhaps even be better than existing shuttles with further improvements and modifications. He is a British citizen if I'm not mistaken, although I'm sure he has people from many countries including America working for him. He would no doubt sell tech to the British government if they did want to persue a space shuttle that can go to space and land under it's own power.

[edit on 14-2-2005 by Trent]

Originally posted by Trent

Originally posted by paperplane_uk
Just a quick question. Does anyone on here really believe that if Europe had the Money and Political will to build a space shuttle they would not have the technological capability to do so?????? European Technology is not always in the Milatry field but things like engine manufacture, marine and offshore, telecoms etc.

Isn't Bransons SpaceShipOne a shuttle of sorts or could be perhaps even be better than existing shuttles with further improvements and modifications. He is a British citizen if I'm not mistaken, although I'm sure he has people from many countries including America working for him. He would no doubt sell tech to the British government if they did want to persue a space shuttle that can go to space and land under it's own power.

[edit on 14-2-2005 by Trent]

Is US tech though (Burt Rutan) so kind of defeats the point.

I stand corrected, i saw something on the news about it once but it was short and didn't go into much detail.

Actually its built by BAe and A&AEE.

Sorry Devilwasp, I am afraid that I am going to have to disagree with you. Unfortunately, the Harriers we use now are designed (updated)by McDonald Douglas/Boeing, with BAe building them under license.
We have bigger and better things to be getting on with (A380,Typhoon,Mr Bush's Helicopter......)

The Hawker Siddeley Harrier and the AV-8A are the first generation of the Harrier series, a successful close-support and reconnaissance fighter aircraft with V/STOL capabilities. The Harrier continues to serve today as the Harrier GR7 and GR9 and AV-8B which are built by BAE SYSTEMS and Boeing. Ironically, the current operational British Harriers (GR7 and GR9) are license-built versions of the McDonnell Douglas (now Boeing) version, respectively the AV-8B Harrier II and AV-8B+ Harrier II Plus.

Harrier

Sorry dude..........

stupid lying site! Never trust that site again....
I knew they where built under liceanse but I though BAE had a hand in helping build em.

They invented it all first.
Everthing else that followed was about light-weight construction materials and refinement.

They made some gliders, not planes. And they weren't first.

And by my logic america stole the designs from europe since we invented the first plane but never got it flying.

If it doesn't fly, it's not really a plane. The first real planes were made in America.

If you have the tech to make a laptop you have the tech to make a top of the line weapon, unless of course you think military programmers are specially trained by the militray and they dont use civilians to write the codes.....

Just because civillians make laptops and civillians are involved in military projects that means a person involved in one could do the other...? That's not logical at all.

It's a lot more complicated to design military weapons.

No defense are there, and as you keep saying the SAM missiles dont stand a chance at stopping them....

I never said that. I said that SAM's had been unreliable, especially Russian ones. There's no proof radar has been developed that can detect stealth. No one has been able to explain to me how these Russian's SAM's could detect stealth. Russia has no way of testing their SAM's on planes anywhere near the level of the B-2 of F-22, or even F-117.

This new missile is completely diffrent from other ones, it is faster and dealier, hell the seaRAM doesnt have time to fire before its been hit.

Not true. The SeaRAM has already intercepted supersonic missiles about the same speed as the Sunburn. It is not nearly as great as you make it out to be. It's speed is somewhere between mach 2.3-3. The SeaRAM has intercepted missiles that go up to mach 2.5 with 95% success rate.

Originally posted by Disturbed Deliverer
If it doesn't fly, it's not really a plane. The first real planes were made in America.

They had the theory.

Just because civillians make laptops and civillians are involved in military projects that means a person involved in one could do the other...? That's not logical at all.

Not really, military PC's I've seen are older than PC's civies have.

It's a lot more complicated to design military weapons.

Ofcourse, but to write a military program requires the same level of programming skill.

I never said that. I said that SAM's had been unreliable, especially Russian ones. There's no proof radar has been developed that can detect stealth. No one has been able to explain to me how these Russian's SAM's could detect stealth. Russia has no way of testing their SAM's on planes anywhere near the level of the B-2 of F-22, or even F-117.

Yeah, you said anything under 75% reliable is a failure, also we are not on about stealth we are on about missiles.

Not true. The SeaRAM has already intercepted supersonic missiles about the same speed as the Sunburn. It is not nearly as great as you make it out to be. It's speed is somewhere between mach 2.3-3. The SeaRAM has intercepted missiles that go up to mach 2.5 with 95% success rate.

The speed of the missile doesnt matter, the range its detected at matters, the way the sunburn works it cna popup on a target complety unnotticed and hit it with less than 30 seconds reaction time.

Originally posted by devilwaspActually its built by BAe and A&AEE.Look it up.

I think you have been proved wrong here like I said but be glad the Pegasus engine is still UK

Originally posted by devilwaspOfcourse, thats cause it was desgned in the cold war.

No it is the technology in it that makes the difference, 90% of its capability is in the systems and the Japanese even cant touch it...

Originally posted by devilwasp
Really, last time i checked there was quite a lot of controversy surounding it.Any how, getting to the moon is an acheivement in its own, it doesnt matter who got there first its getting there that matters.

And that was with 60's technology, unless of course you think it was a hoax.

Originally posted by devilwasp
....why am i careing?All I said was that the US copied german tech nothing else.

No, they IMPROVED it...........The Germans had good technology yes but who had little man first?

Originally posted by devilwasp
I dont think so since they can quite easily make good tech.
Sony laptops and the such are among the best in the world.
AEGIS is regarded as the best in world, so your saying cause they have bought tech from other countries they dont invent thier own?

Let me explain something, lets take that SONY Laptop you speak of, hmmm it either has a Intel or an AMD chip correct? How about PCI express? need I go on? And another thing, I mentioned that the Space Shuttle uses 8086 chips, well so do modern power plants and such, why you ask? Known reliability and no need for more power in the uses that they are tasked in doing. If you think your SONY laptop is top of the line, you had better take a trip to the NSA, when I had my brand new 100MHz pentium a few years back I was playing online against someone with an 800Mhz chip who shouldn't have been online with it.......

Originally posted by devilwasp
Basically most of the tech in the world, from computer games to laptops and from cell phones to palm tops.

Lets make this straight...they BUILD them.....ok? R&D is not a US monopoly by any means, but we do have the best, bar none.....

Originally posted by devilwasp
Whoa there, now your saying you coat your ships in RAM paint. A shipwreck is a sunken boat, wtf are YOU on about?Lets see what defenses does the US task force have against sunburns?NONE, the phalanx and sea sparrow are all.Also if you understand naval warfare then you would understand that any missile attack is deadly if not dealt with quickly.

Look you are barking up a tree that you cant climb m8, RAM - Rolling Airframe Missile, Shipwreck - "Carrier Killer" ask a CVN captain which he fears most? And for the record, the attack 'profile' of a sunburn is not new at all it is just the first at that speed, the shipwreck is much more of a pain

Shiipwreck

And what do we have that can shoot it down you ask? Well lets see since its launch parameters are well within the Hawkeyes detection range and the Standard missile has plenty of reach to engage it, the ones that happen to get through would be handled by AMRAAMS from superbugs and RAMS.......sea sparrows suck I will agree...

And I do understand Naval Warfare, go check out Harpoon if you would like to learn some yourself....


And btw, do you know what a Prowler can do to your precious sunburns?

Originally posted by devilwasp
The speed of the missile doesnt matter, the range its detected at matters, the way the sunburn works it cna popup on a target complety unnotticed and hit it with less than 30 seconds reaction time.

Thats crap, their isn't anything that is going to get near a Carrier at 100 miles at the most without being known except for a submarine but that is even iffy at best...

What the heck is up with you people and the US having no defenses against this Sunburn missile. I have talked with Navy officers that said the US has several defenses against the Sunburn actually, and while of course you can never be completely sure unless you yourself are in the know, I seriously, seriously doubt that the U.S. is going to publicly state what it has to counter the newest threats.

In the Gulf War, the whole media was in a frenzy over a lot of the "new" military technology being utilized in that war. In reality, a good deal of all that tech the U.S. had had since Vietnam. It was just it was only publicly announcing that tech to the media in 1990.

The United States military does not announce what it has to counter threats in various ways. There is not a law saying it must release publicly all of its elite defenses. The U.S.'s ASW capabilities, the features of naval ships, etc....a good deal are all classified.

Also, I forget who it was, a naval officer in Washington I believe, said, when questioned about the Sunburn, that "...the U.S. Navy can do its job there, Sunburn or no Sunburn."

[edit on 14-2-2005 by Broadsword20068]

Just to clear a few things up, The Wright Brothers were the first to reach a very specific goal, that is sustainable, controllable, powered flight. Othered had achieved each of these areas before but never together. So they should truely be honoured, but it should also be remembered that they did not do it all alone but built on a lot of other peoples work (they had a guy from the smithsonian collected everything ever written about flight for them including the work of the English and Germans guys you mentioned). It also should be remembered that they were only the first by a matter of months and within a few years most of their design ideas had been superceeded by other peoples work. Very little of the wright flyer design made it into what is now the standard pattern for a plane (tho NASA are playing with the wing warping idea again)


The NSA have a great deal going with Intel, whereby they get access to all their prototype chips before they go to the domestic market. It has been estimated that they currently are about 3-5 years ahead of what we can get hold of.