Will the europeans ever be powerful?

Originally posted by jawapunk
All I have to say is that is is laughable that there is such an argument over whether or not Europe will be the next power, wrong

China is rising, the giant cometh, be prepared, and afraid

The argument is not about whether the EU is the next superpower, it is wether we are powerful? and the answer would be yes but in different ways to the US. The world looks to be moving towards a small number of larger powers. Rather than be worried about the EU and the USA fighting it is more likely to be China and India in the next 30 years. Two emerging superpower sharing a border and trying to spread their influence over the same area. Now that sounds safe!!!!!!


Edited to correct my lousy spelling.

[edit on 12-2-2005 by paperplane_uk]

Originally posted by Disturbed Deliverer
Considering most of what China has isn't even what the West was producing in the 70's, it is a big deal. I gave more then that, as well. Did you actually view both links?

- Yes I did, funnily enough you chose to dig at the French out of all that. Strange considering just how behind the times the kit they supplied was.

'course you'll be giving the US tech-transfers a complete 'bye' on this, right?

I believe a troll is someone who tries to get others riled up. I don't know how I ever did anything close to that. You, on the other hand, have been doing just that. Going around throwing insults in just about every paragraph hardly shows an ounce of responsibility.

- I'm very bored with your tactic of making numerous laughable totally wrong and ignorant claims which when you are called out on you promptly forget and drop - no Russian navy in WW2 for instance.

That's trolling IMO.

Go rake your points up elsewhere.





[edit on 12-2-2005 by sminkeypinkey]

- I'm very bored with your tactic of making numerous laughable totally wrong and ignorant claims which when you are called out on you promptly forget and drop - no Russian navy in WW2 for instance.

I didn't "drop it," I just start skimming through the post to save time. There's not much need to address most of your statements which just throw insults at me.

The Russian Navy was weak. They couldn't have held up against the Germans.

Yes I did, funnily enough you chose to dig at the French out of all that. Strange considering just how behind the times the kit they supplied was.

The French are the ones who want to open up sales with China the most. That's why I'm not ranting on things sold by Italy.

'course you'll be giving the US tech-transfers a complete 'bye' on this, right?

I believe I already addressed this a while ago.

Originally posted by Disturbed Deliverer
most of your statements which just throw insults at me.

- No they have been consistently pointing out where you have demonstrated your ignorance.

The Russian Navy was weak. They couldn't have held up against the Germans.

- Your original comment was "The Russians also had no navy." actually.
That hardly leaves much room for comparative merits, hmmm?

The French are the ones who want to open up sales with China the most. That's why I'm not ranting on things sold by Italy.

- ....or the missile the UK sold them.
Don't worry it's obvious what you are about with this ridiculous anti-French nonsense some of you Americans find so clever about yourselves.

Honestly it's just so sad, we Brits did all that for years but in a manner that was in fun and had some degree of stylish humour, the current US approach is simply going way to far, it's embarrassingly crass and very unfunny and really more than a little disturbing.

I believe I already addressed this a while ago.

- Of course. The latest aero construction techniques and materials, computer systems for flight control (including the entire FBW control system) and some of the most efficient most up to date engine tech is fine by you so long as it isn't French.

.....and you want to whine about a 1970's based ship radar (and then go on to imagine a loosening up of the current EU control means all sorts)!?

LMAO.

Like I said, can you spell 'hypocrisy'?

- Your original comment was "The Russians also had no navy." actually.
That hardly leaves much room for comparative merits, hmmm?

I think the only problem is your comprehension of the English language.

- ....or the missile the UK sold them.
Don't worry it's obvious what you are about with this ridiculous anti-French nonsense some of you Americans find so clever about yourselves.

You just completely ignored my explanation. I don't see the UK trying to go lift bans on China.

And the only reason I brought up what has been sold to China from Europe is because you made an ignorant statement that not even a single gun has gone to China from Europe.

- Of course. The latest aero construction techniques and materials, computer systems for flight control (including the entire FBW control system) and some of the most efficient most up to date engine tech is fine by you so long as it isn't French.

If only there was anything about the civillian planes which would allow China to kill people more effectively...

Like I said, can you spell 'hypocrisy'?

I believe I already said I wasn't happy with some of the dealings with China throughout the 90's already. If you weren't so anxious to throw insults at me or Americans in general, you might not have missed it.

If neither of you can comment to one another, without insulting use the ignore function. Be adults.

It's not hard.

Once this is done, people can go on and attempt to discuss things without all the mud throwing and 'My Country is Best' bull that goes on.

It's a shame admins are not doing a better job to stop that sort of 'sh*t' because it ruins these forums.

Originally posted by Disturbed Deliverer
I think the only problem is your comprehension of the English language.

- Hmm, one moment you claim the Russians had "no navy" in WW2 which when the ignorance of this statemnt is pointed out swiftly becomes a "weak navy"; I think you are the one with the problem expressing himself properly.

You just completely ignored my explanation. I don't see the UK trying to go lift bans on China.

- 1) That is because your explaintion is laughably wrong and
2) Being part of the EU the UK will examine lifting the ban on seeling arms to the Chinese. (Especially seeing as the UK is one of the world's biggest arms exporters.)

And the only reason I brought up what has been sold to China from Europe is because you made an ignorant statement that not even a single gun has gone to China from Europe.

- Reduced to outright lies now are we, hmm?

My actual comment was "Please let us all know what technology France has supplied the Chinese, cos I have looked and cannot find a thing.

There is an EU directive restricting sales at the moment (basically to things China can make herself anyway) so please let us know where France has breeched this, hmmm?"

Clearly I was referring to a breech of the EU limitation, I did not claim "that not even a single gun had gone to China from Europe", actaully.

If only there was anything about the civillian planes which would allow China to kill people more effectively...

- Yeah a 1970's based radar system is the most heinous act of tech-transfer ever but you'll happily seel composite construction techniques, composite materials manufacturing techniques, computer control systems and the latest large turbo-fan engine tech.

.....and, according to you, absolutely none of that is any use beyond the civillian sphere?

Just how much medication are you on?

Like I said, can you spell 'hypocrisy'?

- Like I said, you want to justify your laughable digging at an entire nation (and Europe in general from time to time) cos they sold a mild update to an old 1970's ship-based radar system and yet you just regret the US tech transfers now going on.

Sheer hypocricy.

(and quit trying to kid yourself, I have chucked no insults around at Americans in general, I have just corrected you on your digs and general ignorance about Europe.)

Odium is right, I should never have fed the troll in the first place.

Away and try rack up points elsewhere.

[edit on 12-2-2005 by sminkeypinkey]

- Hmm, one moment you claim the Russians had "no navy" in WW2 which when the ignorance of this statemnt is pointed out swiftly becomes a "weak navy"; I think you are the one with the problem expressing himself properly.

I think you take the English language just a little bit too ridgidly.

- 1) That is because your explaintion is laughably wrong and
2) Being part of the EU the UK will examine lifting the ban on seeling arms to the Chinese. (Especially seeing as the UK is one of the world's biggest arms exporters.)

How was it wrong? The two nations pushing to lift the ban have been France and Germany. The UK will examine lifting the ban (as if that means anything...), but they've yet to come out for it.

My actual comment was "Please let us all know what technology France has supplied the Chinese, cos I have looked and cannot find a thing.

I don't care enough to go back through all of those posts to find a meaningless quote. Although, I'm pretty sure it was in your last post before that one. That was not the first post you responded to my claim of French dealings with China.

Either way, it doesn't matter. You said Europe hadn't been selling to China, and you were wrong. I did only bring up those sales because you said Europe hadn's sold anything to China since the embargo.

Clearly I was referring to a breech of the EU limitation, I did not claim "that not even a single gun had gone to China from Europe", actaully

You clearly didn't understand the embargo in the first place, and weren't sure exactly what was restricted.

.....and, according to you, absolutely none of that is any use beyond the civillian sphere?

Could you please explain what use it would have for a military. The engines and computers aren't as advanced as what China doesn't already have.

- Like I said, you want to justify your laughable digging at an entire nation (and Europe in general from time to time) cos they sold a mild update to an old 1970's ship-based radar system and yet you just regret the US tech transfers now going on.

That wasn't all they sold. You're downplaying it big time.

If you go take a look at a lot of the systems used across Europe, and even America, they aren't all brand new. A lot of what's still used is on the same level of that 1970's radar.

Americans dislike French because we saved their butts in WWII and went into Vietnam because they lost it, yet they continually cuss us and treat us like crap. Even during the Cold War, the French only went along with American ways because, well, it was the Cold War.

We do not like that France feels for some reason that, with its little powerless self, it has the right to boss around a country that is far more powerful and successful than it, and constantly treat us so badly. They act as if they are so much classier or intelligent or something, yet, look at how they treat people like Lance Armstrong, a man who repeatedly has tested negative fo drugs despite constant testing by (who else!?) the French. When racing, the people screamed in his face and threw stuff at his face. Yes, that is a very classy way to treat an athlete who obviously is very good. But because he happens to be from America, yet kicks butt in one of France's msot popular spectator sports, they hate his guts.

Those are the some of the main reasons Americans dislike France.

Originally posted by Broadsword20068
Americans dislike French because we saved their butts in WWII and went into Vietnam because they lost it, yet they continually cuss us and treat us like crap. Even during the Cold War, the French only went along with American ways because, well, it was the Cold War.

We do not like that France feels for some reason that, with its little powerless self, it has the right to boss around a country that is far more powerful and successful than it, and constantly treat us so badly. They act as if they are so much classier or intelligent or something, yet, look at how they treat people like Lance Armstrong, a man who repeatedly has tested negative fo drugs despite constant testing by (who else!?) the French. When racing, the people screamed in his face and threw stuff at his face. Yes, that is a very classy way to treat an athlete who obviously is very good. But because he happens to be from America, yet kicks butt in one of France's msot popular spectator sports, they hate his guts.

Those are the some of the main reasons Americans dislike France.

Pretty lame reasons like.........
I mean come on cant the US make up a decent excuse?
I dunno mabye shooting some american or somein?

Pretty legit excuses I'd say. Why else should we dislike the French (unless you think one shouldn't dislike someone else unless that someone else comes and bombs you first or something).

Pretty lame reasons like.........
I mean come on cant the US make up a decent excuse?
I dunno mabye shooting some american or somein?

Others on here seem to think its acceptable to dislike American culture because its too popular. It's ok for people in France to resent us because our culture has spread throughout the world. How is that any better?

Originally posted by Broadsword20068
Pretty legit excuses I'd say. Why else should we dislike the French (unless you think one shouldn't dislike someone else unless that someone else comes and bombs you first or something).

I do believe if they havnt hurt you then you have no reason to hate them.

Others on here seem to think its acceptable to dislike American culture because its too popular.

So you should lower yourself to thier level?

It's ok for people in France to resent us because our culture has spread throughout the world. How is that any better?

I think they hate you since you seem to hate them, and the fact many are angered with what you do and for the reasons you do so.

[edit on 12-2-2005 by devilwasp]

I think they hate you since you seem to hate them, and the fact many are angered with what you do and for the reasons you do so.

Europe has been hating America since the not too long after WW2. Our actions don't always have something to do with it, either. Sure, I can see why Muslim nations might hate us. Western Europeans have no damn excuse as far as I'm concerned. It seems that its more jealousy over there than anything. The Gaullists in France, who Sminkeypinkey thinks are justified, are just flat out jealous of America's power. They have been doing things far worse then what America has, like their active support in genocide in Rwanda.

Western Europeans like to blame America for most of the world's problems. They don't like to admit the fact that they have been involved in most of the "wrongs" they blame solely on America, and that there are a number of things they've done completely on their own just as bad as anything America has done.

So you should lower yourself to thier level?

I don't care much about Europeans. I don't come into contact with them. I don't really care what they think. I certainly have no reason to hate them unless they get in America's way.

Originally posted by Disturbed Deliverer
Europe has been hating America since the not too long after WW2. Our actions don't always have something to do with it, either. Sure, I can see why Muslim nations might hate us. Western Europeans have no damn excuse as far as I'm concerned. It seems that its more jealousy over there than anything. The Gaullists in France, who Sminkeypinkey thinks are justified, are just flat out jealous of America's power. They have been doing things far worse then what America has, like their active support in genocide in Rwanda.

So, thats why we have followed you into war side by side?
Also the french have done nothing worse than what america has done.

Western Europeans like to blame America for most of the world's problems. They don't like to admit the fact that they have been involved in most of the "wrongs" they blame solely on America, and that there are a number of things they've done completely on their own just as bad as anything America has done.

So you should lower yourself to thier level?

Yeah, britain caused this entire mess I will admit that, thats why we are not completly out of the blame, BUT america has added fire to these problems time and time again.




[edit on 12-2-2005 by devilwasp]

So, thats why we have followed you into war side by side?

Your governments did so when it was in their interests. Have your people really agreed with the wars?

This right now isn't about governments. It's about the people.

Also the french have done nothing worse than what america has done

What has America done that's so bad? I don't know of America ever supporting genocide like the French have.

Yeah, britain caused this entire mess I will admit that, thats why we are not completly out of the blame, BUT america has added fire to these problems time and time again.

You've been the ones asking America to take action many times, like with Iran in the 50's. You've also been taking your own action since then. You aren't any better then we are.

Originally posted by Disturbed Deliverer
Your governments did so when it was in their interests. Have your people really agreed with the wars?

We did in afganistan and we didnt have any intrests in korea now did we?

This right now isn't about governments. It's about the people.

We, dont like what you do but when you are attacked we stand by you.

What has America done that's so bad? I don't know of America ever supporting genocide like the French have.

How about giveing chemical and biological weapons to a country that would use them on the civie population?
How about supporting terrorism?

You've been the ones asking America to take action many times, like with Iran in the 50's. You've also been taking your own action since then. You aren't any better then we are.

Yes, we admit that.
Or atleast those of us who care do....
We have done wrong, we cant justify it or explain it but we can sure as hell identify and try and stop other countries doing the same.
By god our country has blood on its hands but the least we can do is stop others from doing so.

Maybe with all the muslims coming in to Western Europe now, it could explain why there is increasing resentment (sp) towards America from here. I respect America and the majority of its citizens, but I don't think you do yourselves any favours by talking as if you own the World and you can treat anyone/thing on it how you like.

Your country needs to get its act together before the rise of other superpowers, otherwise you're going to be put in a very sticky position in the near future.

BTW: I fully support war against Afganistan, Iraq and Iran, whether it be for money or peace, because that area has been in caos more or less since the day man occuped it - might as well get what we can now before they destroy themselves. Same goes for many of the African countries

Watch out for Pakistan though, they are backstabbing son-of-a-****** if you ask me. You may find it more beneficial building an alliance with India

Just my 2-cents worth

We did in afganistan and we didnt have any intrests in korea now did we?

The Cold War was not just America and Russia. You Europeans were right along side with us. The Korean war was just an extension of that. It's going back pretty far, as well.

And there's been minor aid in Afghanistan. You could be giving far more. Althought I'd say the people did support that, or at least most. I'm going to bet that there was still a large chunk of people in Europe against our action in Afghanistan.

How about giveing chemical and biological weapons to a country that would use them on the civie population?
How about supporting terrorism?

We didn't give weapons to Saddam. He bought his weapons from France, and Russia. I believe it was France who also was building Saddam a nuclear reactor. And you British were supporting Saddam just like America was. You aren't any cleaner there then we are.

As for supporting terrorism, I guess you're talking about the 80's with Afghanistan. What we did there wasn't supporting terrorism. It wasn't morally wrong, either. Those guys were terrorists. Most, believe it or not, were just normal Afghanis. The extremists were just part, and they gained power after during the power struggle. The only mistake America made there was not sticking through and helping the Afghanis after the Soviets were forced out.

We have done wrong, we cant justify it or explain it but we can sure as hell identify and try and stop other countries doing the same.
By god our country has blood on its hands but the least we can do is stop others from doing so.

If you identify it, why aren't you stopping your own countries right now?

Your country needs to get its act together before the rise of other superpowers, otherwise you're going to be put in a very sticky position in the near future.

And you British will be right there along side with us, probably being torn between your fellow Europeans and the Americans...

Watch out for Pakistan though, they are backstabbing son-of-a-****** if you ask me. You may find it more beneficial building an alliance with India

I'll trust Pakistan more then most European nations at this point. I see the Pakistani leader risking his life to support America. Chirac won't even risk an election to help us, and we're supposed to be a lot closer then we are with Pakistan.

We've been building relations with India for sometime, though.

Partially agreed, DD. The main reason I support American actions at the moment, is because I trust Western "anything" over muslims. I would rather the Communists from the Cold War or Nazis from WW2 take over the West rather than anything that tolerated Islam.

If America goes down, hopefully, China, India or Russia will take its place. I am against all forms of organized religion, but Islam takes the cake. These countries seem like the least likely after America to tolerate the Islamic religion.

At the moment, it seems Western Europe is being flooded with muslims, mainly those been brought up with it and told never to question it - heck, most muslims I've spoken to haven't even read the Qu'ran, yet they are happy to fight to have Islamic rule in our countries and the PC go along with it.

Call me racist, call me fascist, but that is my informed opinion after much research and experience

[edit on 12/2/05 by NoobCommando]