Real Aliens? Real Spacecraft? Does the Extraterrestrial Hypothesis Still Hold Water?

a reply to: 111DPKING111

Im thinking more along the lines of frustration from the lack really good casesl Most of them have a good deal of uncertainty, especially for the more skeptically minded.

It depends how you view what "a really good case" is of course. If, you want a UFO to be an alien spacecraft then there really aren't a lot of 'good cases'. You then have to explain the lack of information being due to conspiracy theories and become wrapped up in a world where every 'person in authority' who says UFOs are not alien craft cannot be trusted whilst those who do are heroes for getting the truth out.

Or you can take a different view and forget about trying to prove UFOs are alien spacecraft. There is a history that you don't learn in school (at least not very often). The early years after the WWII were fraught with paranoia about what the Soviets were up to and the very real threat of nuclear war. The 1947 UFO flap resulted in a number of studies and the military were deeply concerned about what might be going on. Although public reports died down for a while the 1952 UFO flap, of which the 1952 UFOs over Washington DC featured prominently and resulted in a real 'cover-up' of sorts. The UFO topic was then used to cover many military projects and may have even been used as a psy-op against the Soviets. Think how many UFO stories come from the military or involve the military.

There are also the really weird cases like "The Warminster Thing" in mid-60s England which seem to be more of a social phenomenon but with rather dark overtones. Then you have the involvement of our friends from the intel agencies and discovering their motivations for dipping into the topic and even the involvement of occult groups (which I am not particularly fascinated by).

There's plenty to study if you take a different mindset from the majority view that UFOs = aliens. Even though it takes just one case to change everything!

a reply to: Wolfenz

...Truth Arnold Did NOT Mention ... they were the Shape of a Disk he described it more like a crescent shape with a tail in the middle ..

That is correct he only described them as "skipping like a saucer". Below is a sketch made based on his description of the craft he saw. The press coined the "Flying Saucer" term shortly after.



But I am not sure of the point you are trying to make by posting the old magazine covers. Could you clarify?

a reply to: mirageman

What's fascinating is that Arnold saw the picture you posted, but
the reporters started going on about "disks". Then the people
started using the tops of Coleman gas lanterns and other objects
on strings to fake pictures.

People tend to see what is seeded in their mind ahead of time.

This HAS been tested.

Kev

a reply to: mirageman

This is an excellent thread, as always.

I just want to demolish one argument against the ETH (and a few other) hypotheses.

It's Too Far To Come

The idea here is that with such huge distances between stars and current mainstream physics prohibiting faster than light travel it's very unlikely 'they are coming here'.

It's an outdated and embarrassing argument.

1) Probes Can Get To 'Them'
We are probably only 20 years off being able to make probes that, eventually could arrive at stars with life on then. Decent artificial intelligence and a distinct lack of a need for masses of fuel will mean that even we can and will be sending probes 'out there'.

2) We Are Being Brainwashed About AI and The Singularity!

Everyone from journalists to entrepreneurs, scientists to coders are wanting us to believe that an A.I revolution is already here. Many of them speak of a singularity event, where we become the machines, who have solved all major problems on earth. Put simply this phenomena sees every biological civilisation that reaches the right level, transitioning to a digital life form.

Think about that, digital life forms, with no real 'time limits'. If FTL is possible, they will solve it. If not, the journey time isn't much of an issue.

In fact, unless the "singularity" is nothing more than a PR brainwashing campaign for some unknown purpose, somewhere between a few and all advanced civilisations become digital life forms. Let me say that again, unless the experts are wrong about the 'Singularity', then we have a number of digital, possibly sentient lift forms have to exist out there.

------

Both these factors demolish the FTL restriction on 'them' visiting us. Which means they either don't care about visiting us, or they aren't out there at all, or they are paying a visit someday!

Personally, I don't believe in the traditional ETH, but I struggle to discount the above.

So are we about to face a digital mind from the 'other', or is it on it's way, are we creating the first one?

Or is digital technology going to come to a rapid impass. An evolutionary dead end perhaps.

originally posted by: mirageman
a reply to: Wolfenz

...Truth Arnold Did NOT Mention ... they were the Shape of a Disk he described it more like a crescent shape with a tail in the middle ..

That is correct he only described them as "skipping like a saucer". Below is a sketch made based on his description of the craft he saw. The press coined the "Flying Saucer" term shortly after.

But I am not sure of the point you are trying to make by posting the old magazine covers. Could you clarify?

Sure ..

Even though .. Kenneth Arnold did not Claim the Shape a Flying Saucer .. just the Movement ...

yet there been Artists that Created from Covers to ( inside ) Illustrations in Old Pulp Magazines

Since the 1920s and even before in Modern Electronics and Air wonder Stories ..

Telling of a Flying Disk Space Craft .. as Identical Description as what is Known as Disk Shape UFO

So Practically the Modern stuff you know of about E.T.s and Ufos
was mentioned in some shape or form
way before the year 1947 ( Roswell Crash ) and the Modern UFO Craze in the 1950s
From Science Fiction Pulp Magazines .. Super Science Fiction , Amazing Stories, Astounding Stories , Air Wonder Stories , to name a Few , The Ones i had Shown ( the Pics ) are from the 1930s and late 1920s


Here is My Thread
about those flying Disk and Foo Fighters aka typical Sphere shape Spacecraft
and even Beam me ups and Alien Abductions and in those Pulp Magazines

Ufos & Foo Fighters in Pulp Mags before 1950s
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Place a Real Pulp Mag from those Times in your hands..

or Download them Digitally from Archive.org--


Here is the Site ( Enjoy )

The Pulp Magazine Archive
archive.org...


So Either .......

The Artist and Authors ( Scifi Writers ) before 1947 ( roswell )

1) made it Up in there imaginative Mind
2) heard the Tales from other people the talked too family friends etc..
3) Actually Seen or Experienced the Aliens and the Craft
4) a mixture of the 3

But those magazines DO EXIST and the The Artwork and the Stories are There..

a reply to: KellyPrettyBear

It's like in your other thread where you specifically asked not to discuss the Skinwalker Ranch and then a whole bunch of people went on to mention it.

I think it proves that we are not all connected at all on a subconscious level. We go with whatever picture is forming in our heads and then run with that until we are corrected.

a reply to: ctj83

Oh I'm 100% on board with the ETH for the future.

In fact, I think that WE will be the first in this part of the galaxy to fly around and destroy other worlds, like we have destroyed this one.

But as you say.. the ETH is a very weak hypothesis for what we are observing over the past few thousand years.

Kev

a reply to: mirageman

It depends how you view what "a really good case" is of course.

I would put a really good case as one where we are certain something occurred that is beyond our technology/means to replicate like Portage County or the Levelland case you just did. Of course not everyone thinks those are good cases, but at least for me, there are elements in both that defy explanation.

If you want a UFO to be an alien spacecraft then there really aren't a lot of 'good cases'.

I personally think it would be great if all UFOs were explainable, hopefully the powers that be are handling the situation the best way possible, maybe just staying out of the way...

You then have to explain the lack of information being due to conspiracy theories and become wrapped up in a world where every 'person in authority' who says UFOs are not alien craft cannot be trusted whilst those who do are heroes for getting the truth out.

There are many cases that could be alien spacecraft, but the level of confidence in them isnt so great, HOWEVER that confidence problem would go away for many of them if we didnt have this...

NSA says it lost its unredacted files...
Secret agreement to hide reclassification
Missing evidence
Missing gun camera footage

Its academic that information is being covered up(ball lightning, really?), no need for conspiracy.

The UFO topic was then used to cover many military projects and may have even been used as a psy-op against the Soviets. Think how many UFO stories come from the military or involve the military.

I wouldnt mind being wrong, hopefully this is all there is to it.

originally posted by: mirageman
a reply to: KellyPrettyBear

It's like in your other thread where you specifically asked not to discuss the Skinwalker Ranch and then a whole bunch of people went on to mention it.

I think it proves that we are not all connected at all on a subconscious level. We go with whatever picture is forming in our heads and then run with that until we are corrected.

I agree with you.. we are NOT connected on a subconscious level, per se anyway.

It's my contention that there is a gate-keeping mechanism between our minds.

There certainly do seem to be times that the proper conditions exist to allow for
spooky stuff.

But it's not "on" 24x7x365.

Occultists and others are deluded into thinking that they can control the machinery
so to speak.. but it's not true.. nobody understands the gating-mechanism very
well yet.

I also think that we are in this transitional phase.. perhaps like in "Childhood's End"
by Arthur C. Clarke.

Kev

a reply to: ctj83

Yep with intelligent enough AI and enough resources you can explore the universe for eternity. Possibly one day knowing all there is to possibly know.......How boring would that day be?

But would a digital species have the same motivations as a flesh blood species? Would we still have emotions and gut feelings? An instinct to survive? Would we have the same motivations for furthering our knowledge? How do you program those things? Would you even try to? The future remains unwritten (at least it seems that way!).

Maybe we will find out, like you say, when someone (or something) pays a visit. Or when we eventually become the visitors.

a reply to: mirageman

if you asked me if the UFO Alien Craze Still Hold Water ...

My Answer :: Not as Mush as it Did ...

The The PhotoShop and CGI kinda Killed it

as things are now Cloudy because of it

find some old Reels ( film ) or Vintage Footage
before 1964 ... or Documentary Books ...
to see the actual truth ...

Why before 1964 ?

The Johnson Administration
tried to Silence the Craze

Truman, Eisenhower, Kennedy,
were well aware and wanted to take some cuts and have
the Public taste bits of of the Leak..

Even tho the Were not sure of themselves .. of who owned these Crafts ( or did they )
but it was During the high peak of the Cold War...

a reply to: Wolfenz

Thanks for that. I see what you mean now. The press may have coined "Flying Saucer" in 1947 as a term but the idea for the shape of such a craft was certainly not new.

Although these were considered 'pulp' magazines/comics there were certainly some interesting minds behind both the stories and artwork to go with them and I guess influenced the masses just as modern sci-fi does today. Although, as you state, what was the influence behind the stories/pics?

Some of them are actually pretty cool as well. Thanks for the links.

a reply to: mirageman

I didn't want to bias this, but I consider the current glut of 'Singularity' articles to not be what they seem. They aren't literally about the possibility of an A.I. Singularity happening imminently, even though that is what they say. They are about something else. Perhaps more sinister, perhaps more mundane and commercial?

If A.I is possible, it is going to comprise some if not all of the 'aliens' we encounter in the future.

Personally, I think the one thing we can say is that we will (can) be able to send sub light speed probes to planets most likely to contain life.

So the light speed aspect of the ETH is most certainly an obsolete argument against them coming here.

Where that leaves us, I don't know!

a reply to: 111DPKING111

I think a lot of information is redacted because those in power simply want to avoid anything they can prevent getting out into the public domain. One thing revealed may lead to another. There are other topics like MK Ultra, The Tuskegee Study, Operation Northwoods, Iran-Contra etc, etc that have been revealed as real conspiracies.

But if the UFO topic is really related to ET, and someone on planet Earth knows that, then it has been kept totally watertight since whenever the discovery was made. Wikileaks has revealed very little to us and these supposed whistleblowers like Corso, Lazar, Goode, Bushman etc. always leave us nothing tangible to go on.

Ive seen things in the sky and ive work in one of the biggest aircraft manufacturing towns in the planet.I can identify planes by look,sounds, lights and many other ways.its just imposdibke to think there is no other species out in the universe. Now most sightings are Miss identified planes or secret experimental aircraft,blimps,personal mini aircraft and hoaxes. But...... Even if 1 percent are unexplained that's alot.I just wished our governments would have a group seriously and openly look into this.open to the public.nice article Tho

a reply to: mirageman

But if the UFO topic is really related to ET, and someone on planet Earth knows that, then it has been kept totally watertight since whenever the discovery was made.

There are lots of good stories from pilots, but not with the kind of evidence you would like to back them up.

Thinking back to your cow snatching thread, one would think something about whats going on there would leak out, but whoever is doing it, has managed to keep it hidden really well.

Not saying its not a fair point though, I dont think its insurmountable though. Especially with the media at large that treats the topic like a joke, there is a built in cover up, not enough Panettas in the world.

Hopefully he gets around to a tell all book and clues us in a little.

a reply to: mirageman

What's more scary is once it has surpassed us, how do we understand the stuff it figures out? There will be some concepts we'll understand over time, others we'll never be capable to comprehend.

We're creating something we don't understand and like you point out in some of your questions, it will never understand us or approve what we do (at least if it isn't done right).

a reply to: mirageman

Actually references to ''Discs'' go a lot further back than that - hundreds of years. Look in Aubeck and Shough ''Return to Magonia''. For example Ch 16, ''The Electric Disc'', Minnesota, 1899

originally posted by: Bloatis123
a reply to: mirageman

Actually references to ''Discs'' go a lot further back than that - hundreds of years. Look in Aubeck and Shough ''Return to Magonia''. For example Ch 16, ''The Electric Disc'', Minnesota, 1899

That's an interesting point and how it relates to the modern age of mass media. No doubt mass media may have influenced people's perceptions. And they are not all saucer shaped there are many different shapes seen apparently.
Before the age of mass media a lot of incidents may have gone totally unreported and unknown outside a small area or group.
Now we have radio, TV, internet, reporting centres etc but before all that who would people tell, the local townsfolk at the pub or inn probably. And they probably wouldn't use terms like flying saucer it might be more like strange things in the sky and blamed on spirits or witches or something. Certainly there were a lot of very strange beliefs and superstitions in centuries past which they may have used to explain and talked about differently depending on the time.
And now we have the age of home computers, digital cameras and photoshop where it's so easy to hoax just about anything it casts doubt.

I think it is far more likely that 'UFOs' are government black project aircraft.

As for there being aliens who may or may not be visiting us, that is difficult to answer when they might be extra/interdimensional and unable to be observed with our current technologies - or maybe they are, but not in the way you would expect..