Real Aliens? Real Spacecraft? Does the Extraterrestrial Hypothesis Still Hold Water?

a reply to: radarloveguy

"In the '90's I worked for a shadowy U.S government agency."

You should build a for pay website. People eat that sort of talk up. It's made some people very wealthy.

Kev

a reply to: Blueracer

You speak the truth.

Kev

Finally a break from politics.

Anyone else wonder what's happening with the UFO phenomena nowadays? Used to be much more interesting, content wise and UFO activity as well.

Have they left the Earth? Or are we just too busy looking at our phones, that we stopped looking up in the sky?

a reply to: Nikola014

NUFORC, just 1 reporting agency in 1 country had over 7000 reports last year..

And presumably only a small number of people make reports.

So what has changed?

Less sensational stuff in the newspapers?

Kev

originally posted by: liveandlearn
A very well written report and view op.

my only problem is that you started in 1940 and 50's. The post would have been enhanced had you discussed the many paintings from hundreds of years ago which show craft much as they were described in the 40's and 50's.

These early paintings of craft need to be addressed in any comprehensive discussion of UFO's.

Yes you do have a point there.

However I think a lot of those paintings and drawings are widely open to interpretation. I am not saying there aren't mysteries in the ancient and medieval world which may point to visitation in the distant past. But there are other people on ATS with a better grasp of that part of the subject than me. I also had to avoid rabbiting on for too long. I left USOs, foo fighters,secret space programs, the contactees, Nazi UFOs, ghost rockets and crop circles out of the post as well for reasons of brevity.

originally posted by: KellyPrettyBear

I do have to agree that it leaves out many of the good reasons that the ETH has little or no merit.
But it was a good start for 1990.

Kev

Something that Vallee left out? I'd sure like to hear it.

a reply to: TrueMessiah

I've posted quite a bit if it. But unfortunately im not at liberty to say which parts he agrees with and which parts he doesn't agree with. I always keep all confidences.

The good doctor doesn't talk about the ETH much anymore...it's been a completely dead topic for decades. Well dead for most serious researchers...it's still kicked around in pop culture.

Kev

originally posted by: fromtheskydown You have obviously put a lot of work into your posts but all I am getting from it is titles, a paragraph or two of info that is neither new or thought provoking...links to a lot of websites and then a kind of 'Over to you' question at the end and no actual opinions from yourself. My apologies, but count me out, as this thread actually offers nothing in the way of stimulation or information. It's kind of like a general summing-up something we already know.

originally posted by: Moresby

originally posted by: fromtheskydown
You have obviously put a lot of work into your posts but all I am getting from it is titles, a paragraph or two of info that is neither new or thought provoking...links to a lot of websites and then a kind of 'Over to you' question at the end and no actual opinions from yourself.

My apologies, but count me out, as this thread actually offers nothing in the way of stimulation or information. It's kind of like a general summing-up something we already know.

I second this.

You know, I'm seeing a lot of posts like this lately, criticizing people starting threads because they didn't necessarily write a 55 page thesis, or mentioned something that isn't brand new. It's discouraged me from starting more threads. The OP put in time and effort on this and deserves respect

Extremely well done post, OP.

This is a special case for me, perhaps seen before on ATS, but could not find it specifically (If anyone, IssaacKoi would have certainly covered it)...

The first UFO photograph ever taken, and a stereo image at that! Due to it's age, especially before any electronic capabilities, it needs an explanation as to what it possibly could be. The image shows depth, being in stereo, and probably extremely hard to hoax, it would seem.
(Do a cross-eye on it, if you can do this without invoking a headache.)

This photograph depicts a cloud formation over the summit of Mt. Washington in the Winter of 1870 - 1871. The image is part of an antique stereoview that happens to contain an unexplained cigar-shaped object. It is simultaneously the oldest and one of the best UFO sightings on record. Remember, there were no planes in the sky in 1870 and no digital manipulation. In 2002, this image was purchased on Ebay for $385.00 by Samuel M. Sherman, president of Independent-International Pictures Corp

Source: UFO Casebook and Oddee.com First UFO photograph

The counter hypothesis states that images like this must be explainable natural phenomena or mis-interpretations of common objects... Where would this fit into scenarios like that?

a reply to: KellyPrettyBear

...So what has changed?

Less sensational stuff in the newspapers?

I could name at least 3 UK tabloids that post UFO stories quite regularly in their on-line versions. But because they are generally nothing more than click bait it's not worth giving them much credit.

But I think the technology we have has changed things. It's basically a lot harder to make stuff up and lie when we have CCTV all over the place. Law enforcement and military officers often have vehicle and body mounted cameras and most of us own a mobile phone with a camera in it. And when things are recorded it's a lot easier to identify aircraft movements, rocket re-entries, meteorites and the position of the ISS and satellites above our heads.

Look at the holy grail of ufology - Roswell. There are absolutely no pictures or film from that whole episode except for this roll of pictures taken of the 'alleged' debris.



There's no pictures from the supposed crash site even though the RAAF brazenly announced they had a flying saucer. Nowadays someone would be out there and the whole world would see something on TV before the day was out.

The Lonnie Zamora case in the 60s if it happened today would surely have been recorded by the onboard camera on the patrol vehicle.

I'd also say that events like the Norway spiral in 2009...



and the Russian meteor explosion from 2013 ....



Had these events occurred 40 perhaps even 20 years earlier would have almost certainly generated massive UFO stories. But because of modern technology and the thawing of relations with the Russians we were able to match the Norway spiral to a missile test that went horribly wrong and confirm that there was a meteor over Russia.

Not only that we could all see it for ourselves.

I suspect many of the highly popular stories of UFOlogy's ever present past have prosaic explanations like the above too. But because of a lack of data we will never resolve many of them.

a reply to: charlyv

Here is that image in a much higher resolution:

Hi-Res Picture Link

It has been explained on here before as nothing more than a measuring instrument in the snow (a ruler)

......You are looking at a ruler placed on a snow-covered cairn to scale an object in featureless terrain. Yes, it is that boring. No mystery zeppelins here........

See : www.abovetopsecret.com...

Also the provenance of the photo has been researched and documented here : The Oldest Known UFO Photo Refuted

This is actually one of those old UFO stories where the data was available to resolve it once someone actually did the ground work.

Oops.

a reply to: mirageman

Mirageman anyone new or somewhat new or even long time researchers can benefit from this extraordinarily informative and great OP!


I'll put this in my favorites to always refer to when I need condensed information

Great work and fine contribution to ATS!

a reply to: mirageman

As you have a lot of knowledge about this subject, would you mind telling me/us your personal opinion about Roswell?

originally posted by: Moresby

originally posted by: fromtheskydown
You have obviously put a lot of work into your posts but all I am getting from it is titles, a paragraph or two of info that is neither new or thought provoking...links to a lot of websites and then a kind of 'Over to you' question at the end and no actual opinions from yourself.

My apologies, but count me out, as this thread actually offers nothing in the way of stimulation or information. It's kind of like a general summing-up something we already know.

I second this.

But you see my friend everybody doesn't know everything you know or I know. Just think of the many people who could benefit from this excellent summary of the UFO lore and phenomenon that the OP and other posts here have done.


You want exotic answers or esoteric UFological conversation that's new, then why not post it yourself.

Getting to the crux of the matter, I believe one reason for the contact since 1945 has to have something to do with the acquisition of nuclear energy by humans.


There are other reasons for this alien contact that have to do with eschatology…and that's what's scary.


Eschatology: any system of doctrines concerning last, or final, matters, as death, the Judgment, the future state, etc.

I believe these “aliens” are actually part of the—here’s a big word for you-- firmamental architecture of reality doing some physical labor intensive work for the universe, or God if you may, having to do with our destiny

Their like the walls or the wind and the walls and wind do not talk

But were getting a glimpse or big hint

Something really really big is happening soon

a reply to: Nikola014

I''ll certainly give you an opinion my friend. But the most important one, of course, has to be your own after you weigh up the evidence yourself.

All we can really verify about Roswell is that something came to earth on the Foster Ranch sometime around mid June of 1947 and was discovered by rancher Mac Brazel. Many of us know the headline from the time "RAAF Captures Flying Saucer on ranch in Roswell Region"



But far less people know about the details of what was found in the news from a day later.

Brazel related that on June 14 he and 8-year-old son, Vernon were about 7 or 8 miles from the ranch house of the J.B. Foster ranch, which he operates, when they came upon a large area of bright wreckage made up on (sic) rubber strips, tinfoil, a rather tough paper and sticks.

Roswell Daily Record July 9th 1947

So the UFO was made of rubber, tinfoil, paper and sticks?

Now maybe this was the start of a real cover-up and Mac Brazel was threatened and told to say this to the papers by the military. But the story died there and then for 30 years after it was announced that all that was found was a weather balloon. There were never any reports of aliens until the 1980s.

Of course it would show great foresight. There was no Freedom of Information Act back then and even the term flying saucer had only really been coined a week or two before by Kenneth Arnold. There is no way it was associated with space aliens back then by the majority. So you have to get everything in context of the times.

Fast forward to the late 1970s and Jesse Marcel claimed the debris he found was 'not of this world'. He never made any mention of dead (or live) aliens at the scene.



Do you not think Marcel, the base intelligence officer, would be 'gathering intelligence' and know about the retrieval of any alien bodies, autopsies etc?Would the the retrieval of bodies be kept secret from the base intelligence officer? Just as the design and release of top secret Mogul balloons from Alamogordo were kept secret from the military personnel at Roswell AAF.

Sheridan Cavitt, who was with Marcel in the debris field that 1947 July day, flatly denied what he saw was anything other than a balloon in a written statement.



So even the beginnings of the whole damned story start with conflicting information. Which man out in the field do you believe?

Despite a few rare mentions in UFO lore Roswell was a passing footnote for ufology until 1978. The alien stories from Roswell only start in the 1980s. Many 'witnesses' were discredited later. Glenn Dennis and Frank Kaufman being two of the major ones. The story expanded from one crash site to two or more. Not one tiny piece of the 'memory metal' found (but strangely destroyed into pieces despite Marcel's assertions) has ever been found to exist.

The USAF of course didn't come out this well. They didn't exist at the time the incident happened but parts of their 1990s explanations seemed a little odd. They claim the cover up was to conceal a top secret Mogul balloon. Even though which exact one still remains inconclusive. They tried to say alien bodies were crash dummies which were not even used in 1947.

I think there are a lot of problems with the Roswell story that will possibly remain unanswered even 100 years after the incident. I remain unconvinced that anything alien was involved. The evidence just isn't there. It relies almost totally on anecdotal evidence.

Unfortunately whatever really happened has become shrouded in modern mythology.

a reply to: fromtheskydown

My apologies, but count me out, as this thread actually offers nothing in the way of stimulation or information. It's kind of like a general summing-up something we already know.

It is a tough task, everyone is going to come to the thread with different beliefs/skeptism based on the cases they believe/dont believe.

Most UFO sightings are over in a few moments with no good way to corroborate or know for sure what really happened, which ones do you take seriously and what conclusions have you come to?, Not sure why you find a thread like this so objectionable? Seems reasonable to take stock of what we have learned and where each of us is at.

Personally I think the more solid cases like Portage County, Westall, Colares, Levelland , and Belgium should motivate one to look back at the other cases to start and draw some conclusions.

Lots of ideas out there, time travel and other dimensional theories are imo just fantasy couched up in scientific terms, I have an easier time believing fairies are responsible. Im not in love with the ETH, just dont see much else worth considering.

Some of the best evidence is recent evidence, and indirect.

The Kepler satellite has identified over 1000 potentially Earth like planets, and when the ratio of planets found to stars investigated is applied galaxy wide, it is estimated there should be over a billion in our galaxy.

www.washingtonpost.com...

The Rosetta mission found evidence of RNA, one of the building blocks of an Amino Acid (which is the building blocks of Proteins.... etc) on a comet. That's not even a planet.

en.wikipedia.org...(spacecraft)#Search_for_organic_compounds


As for intelligent life, humans are the smartest on Earth, but Octapus/squid, crows/ravens, and Kangaroos all show signs of being on the same evolution path, if they were left to it long enough.



I think the problem for people believing is the inability of UFO-ology to give us a complete story.

We've got multiple alien races. Greys, Saurians, and even "Nordics human". I suspect that, if there are actually humans among the aliens, then it's a probably a colony that was started by alien visitors.

Perhaps they saw humans as useful as slaves or workers, and instead of conquering Earth, they just took a few out into space with them, and let them reproduce into a colony, and eventually they became one of the races of space travelers. (This would be like, 50,000 years ago.)

Maybe they just took genetic material and grew them in test tubes, so they would grow from infancy in the aliens' culture, completely severed from human society. (And maybe they still do, by way of abductions?)

Perhaps Earth itself is just a wild life preserve. Inconsequential. A "natural heritage site". There might be more humans living off world than there are here on Earth. Maybe the off world humans are the ones who deny access to all the others? Or limit it.

Like one of those indigenous tribes in South America along the Amazon river. Still untainted by modern society. And some people would like for them to never be contacted. Except Earth is that on a planet scale, one planet among millions or billions.



It's ego-centrism that makes us ask questions like "why don't they make contact?" We can't understand why they wouldn't want to appear on the Oprah show and be celebrities.




I don't know specifically whether Roswell was or was not a true sighting/crash. I don't know whether abductees are lying. I presume that at least a few are.

I think the rise of abduction reports coincides with the rise in awareness of other unmentionables, such as incest and other forms of child abuse. Or homosexuality. Probably the reason we didn't hear about it before that era is the same as the reason we didn't hear much about the other issues.