Okay --- so WHAT ARE THE NEXT STEPS?

originally posted by: desert
a reply to: BuzzyWigs

If you don't want them hiring "illegals", then hold the companies accountable.

lol That's exactly what is left out of the equation! And for a darned good reason, as it takes the spotlight off those providing employment.

A few years ago (I remember posting it here), there was a campaign for "English Only" in Alabama, because the good people of Alabama suddenly found themselves with others who didn't speak English. The funny thing is, there had been for years billboards in Mexico in Spanish, "Mucho Trabajo en Russellville, Alabama" along with a special phone number to call so local recruiters could help them get to Alabama for jobs. These billboards could be found in towns all along the US-Mexico border.

Yes, it used to be billboards. With social media and the internet the lies and promises reach a much larger group over a much larger, global area. The gullible and the desperate make for dangerous companions. If we are so complacent and brainwashed that we can't see the flashing lights warning of the "Bridge Out Ahead" signs, then we are likely to crash and burn.

Desperate people do desperate things. Even good people will become monsters when we enter survival mode. There are hundreds of TV shows and movies that can give you an idea of what happens when one person stands in the way of life and death of the other, it is never pretty.

Someone said here earlier, at least I think it was in this post, that charity has to start at home. That is true on all levels. The most loving and generous person in the world can't feed a hungry child if they are unable to produce or prepare the food, and it is impossible if there is no food left to produce or prepare.

Annee is correct.

"Hand Ups" not "Hand Outs" - - I know from personal experience Free Hand Outs over time are not appreciated, they are expected. "That which is not earned, has no value"

The fact that part of the reason many come here, is because they have been led to believe they will receive free food, clothing, and homes, simply because they show up. When these people find out they have been deceived, they hold the people of their host countries responsible. They are now strangers in a strange land, angry, frightened and desperate. Add to that an increasing number of people going without basic food, clothing, and shelter in their homes of origin and you can see why these strangers are not just not welcome, they are seen as a threat.

It all falls down into the category of survival. That is one of the most important reasons all countries have to have some kind of control over immigration to their countries.

originally posted by: NightSkyeB4Dawn

The fact that part of the reason that many come here, is because they have been lead to believe that they will receive free food, clothing, and homes, simply because they show up.

That depends on what group you're talking about. Sponsored War displacement or illegal border crossing.

I believe there are now enough already settled groupings of people from every part of the world - - that in most cases they find their own kind. Which creates another problem. They remain in their culture - - rather then assimilate.

originally posted by: NightSkyeB4Dawn

Someone said here earlier, at least I think it was in this post, that charity has to start at home. That is true on all levels. The most loving and generous person in the world can't feed a hungry child if they are unable to produce or prepare the food, and it is impossible if there is no food left to produce or prepare.

My grade school principle "adopted" us.

She ran food & clothing drives for us. And even bought us shoes out of her own pocket.

Why us? Because my polio disabled mom got up every morning and went to work. We were raised by our gramma.

A family across the street from us on welfare? She wouldn't give them the time of day.

a reply to: Annee

The current system keeps good people down though.

It doesn't do "Hands Up" for those trying to be independent.

You have to be a complete loser to get assistance.

This isn't really true.
The "current system" is limited as to what they can do. They do case management (which is definitely a hand-up) by helping them find the services they need.....health clinics that charge on a sliding scale, and "no one is turned away due to inability to pay"....

The current system provides for social workers to visit the homes of brand new moms (and dads) who would like to learn about caring for their child so that the child thrives.....(or at least it did, 10 years ago).....

it provides support services "itinerant PRN" assistants for those who need help in a crisis.


Just like back when Reagan closed the "asylums" (not a bad thing in and of itself) and turned out the neglected and severaly incapacitated "mental patients" to their respective communities.

There was no appropriate "transitional" training. No state-wide (or nation-wide) instruction on what to do with them. Also no medication, no case histories....just, SET THEM FREE!!!!

And that failed. And then Bush came in with "faith-based initiatives" ---- and those work to some extent, except that the recipient has to comply.....and then you are indoctrinating people into

BELIEVE THIS NONSENSE OR DIE!

In November's issue of the Atlantic is a fascinating and astute article about how the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster is bucking the theocratic system. And lo and behold: in the print version, the image leads the eye to the text directly below the FSM's depiction.....

In 2005, the Kansas Board of Education voted to let public schools teach the creationist theory of intelligent design alongside evolution, arguing, among other things, that you couldn’t prove a supernatural being hadn’t given rise to life.

Holy cow....well, "letting" isn't the same as "MANDATING", though....so... it's only that schools CAN DO THAT if they want to.
Which is child abuse.

A 24-year-old with a degree in physics named Bobby Henderson responded on his website that you also couldn’t prove a flying spaghetti monster hadn’t created the universe. Why not teach that theory as well?

THANK GOD FOR THE MILLENNIALS

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: NightSkyeB4Dawn

The fact that part of the reason that many come here, is because they have been lead to believe that they will receive free food, clothing, and homes, simply because they show up.

That depends on what group you're talking about. Sponsored War displacement or illegal border crossing.

I believe there are now enough already settled groupings of people from every part of the world - - that in most cases they find their own kind. Which creates another problem. They remain in their culture - - rather then assimilate.

In the book of life we all have our own chapter.
I have had people that were sent by family members to live with groups or relatives with the belief that they would be cared and provided for, while they went to school or got a job. They believed their child would then be able to send money home to care for their families back in their country of origin. Some of these families never heard from their children again.

I have had victims from South America, Africa, India, China, Poland, Russia, Thailand and the Philippines. We have had victims trapped by servitude, massage parlors, restaurants, agriculture, debt labor, and the list goes on. Some were sponsored, some came illegally, some came legally and never returned to their home countries when their Visa expired. Those that live in the cultural ghettos can be buried so deep that it is almost impossible to find them. These areas not only retain much of their old wold culture, they have developed new and criminal cultures. The people either accept the life they have been given, or are too far from home, too isolated, and too terrified to do anything about it.

The one thing they all had in common, is that they thought that America was the magical place where money flowed in the streets, and the place where they would be able to live the good life. Some knew they would have to work for it and where willing to work for it. Some were deceived and expected a Life of Riley. All thought that America held the keys to their success and happiness.

I don't believe the average American begrudges anyone the chance to fulfill their dreams. The average American is struggling to fulfill their own. The problem arises when someone takes their keys and drives off with their car. I doesn't matter if the car is broken down and in need of repair, or that they are still struggling to pay off the loan on it. It is not mean, selfish, or uncompassionate, if they refuse to hand over their car and if they fight to keep it.

a reply to: NightSkyeB4Dawn

I don't believe the average American begrudges anyone the chance to fulfill their dreams. The average American is struggling to fulfill their own. The problem arises when someone takes their keys and drives off with their car. I doesn't matter if the car is broken down and in need of repair, or that they are still struggling to pay off the loan on it. It is not mean, selfish, or uncompassionate, if they refuse to hand over their car and if they fight to keep it.

This is a spectacularly outrageous analogy of what it means to assist those in need.
No one who is that destitute pays income taxes ----- they pay sales tax when they shop. They pay local and state taxes when they pay their utility bills. They pay taxes, but saying that is akin to garnishing their savings is absurd.
Any person who is in those kind of dire straits has access to public assistance. "Donate your car to your local NPR station, so we can help those in need."

Your venom toward the very people who are trying to help you is misguided and a reflection of the hatefully skewed "picture" of this country that you have been fed. And that you are feeding to others.

Please cease and desist.

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

And more evidence that businesses and corporations wanted cheap labor and were willing to hire illegally. We hear 99% of the time of the worker being illegal, but 1% of the time that the business was breaking the law doing illegal hiring. Illegal employee, illegal employer. I guess that's the basic equation: illegal employee = illegal hiring.

originally posted by: BuzzyWigs
a reply to: NightSkyeB4Dawn

This is a spectacularly outrageous analogy of what it means to assist those in need.
No one who is that destitute pays income taxes ----- they pay sales tax when they shop. They pay local and state taxes when they pay their utility bills. They pay taxes, but saying that is akin to garnishing their savings is absurd.
Any person who is in those kind of dire straits has access to public assistance. "Donate your car to your local NPR station, so we can help those in need."

Your venom toward the very people who are trying to help you is misguided and a reflection of the hatefully skewed "picture" of this country that you have been fed. And that you are feeding to others. Please cease and desist.

I don't know where you saw me being venomous towards anyone, least of all towards people that are trying to help. As far as being misguided, I have worked in the career field of case management and victim services long enough to know that you can't build a brick house without bricks.

You can't educate or direct the homeless towards homes, shelters or services that don't exist. I spent 4 hours in a conference yesterday working with over 100 agencies, trying to collaborate on ways to tackle some of the most pressing problems of those in need in our community. We even have people who are writing for grants and pounding the beat on foot, looking for any donations that can be found. No corner is being overlooked, no stone unturned.

All the good intentions in the world does not change the fact that you can't provide what is not available.

originally posted by: BuzzyWigs
a reply to: Annee

The current system keeps good people down though.

It doesn't do "Hands Up" for those trying to be independent.

You have to be a complete loser to get assistance.

This isn't really true.
The "current system" is limited as to what they can do. They do case management (which is definitely a hand-up) by helping them find the services they need.....health clinics that charge on a sliding scale, and "no one is turned away due to inability to pay"....

My personal experience says otherwise.

Daughter, told by doctor she could never get pregnant, with same guy for 6 years - never used birth control. Broke up, got back together for Last Hoorah! Miracle pregnancy. Did not realize she was pregnant - she only had periods about twice a year and she was overweight. At 5 months went to doc because of pain in side. Had 24 hours to decide to keep or abort as baby was practically crowning. Chose to keep. Had to be sewn in. Bed ridden. Could not work.

This daughter had been working steady since 13 years of age.

Case worker says to me: why are you here, why not her? "She's bed ridden". Caseworker: "I don't believe you". She compared my drivers license to my daughters, then said: "This is the same person, you're a fraud".

Then, seriously (I am not prejudice at all) - - and I am not making this up: Case worker says to me: "You are white, and have a work history - - you don't qualify". She also said to me: "If you tell anyone I said that, I will deny it"

Of course, I had all the medical records - - and the letter stating she could not work and was put on complete bed rest. I was not leaving until I got what I needed.

Baby came at just under 7 months, weighing 3 pounds. Spent several months in intensive care. My daughter requested a 6 months extension because of a premature baby. Denied.

Grandson today is 23, perfectly healthy.

This was in Los Angeles.

Give me credit for still supporting the system after my experience.

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

And that failed. And then Bush came in with "faith-based initiatives" ---- and those work to some extent, except that the recipient has to comply.....and then you are indoctrinating people into

BELIEVE THIS NONSENSE OR DIE!

That's a false characterization of what went on. "Belief" was never required. SOME faith based help came with a requirement of some minimal attendance at religious services, but it was minimal, and many didn't even require that.

When I volunteered to move into and worked at a homeless shelter sponsored by the Catholic Church in Chicago for a year, we didn't require any religious participation or affiliation at all from our guests. Nor did any of our sister shelters. In fact, during my year there, the only "religious" conversations I know of were held privately among believing members of the staff.

And as far as "good" goes, we fed, clothed and sheltered more people with less than any government sponsored program ever could. Of course we were neither "paid" for our services nor were we invested in perpetuating the cycle of poverty or a welfare culture.

a reply to: Annee

Unfortunately, you are not alone with your experience in trying to obtain government or state services. This is one of the reasons that many Americans are resentful of help going to immigrants, when they have to struggle, and are told they have to do without.

I have fought battle after battle for my needy patients, to be told over and over again that there was nothing that could be done because of lack of funding. It is hard to accept that as a valid excuse when they are giving the same needed services to immigrants while denying the needs of Americans, that have fought for our country and that have paid into the system.

It made me angry and I was often embarrassed when I was unable to explain their rationale to my patients. I am presently, involved with a battle with the government regarding an error in their calculating of my retirement check. I feel the frustration and the embarrassment in those case workers that are trying to make sense out of something that doesn't make sense. It is particularly embarrassing when we are sitting and listening to interpreters speaking for immigrants sitting next to me collecting those benefits that I was being denied, because the government has no money available for funding the benefits for Americans.

I sounds crazy, because it is. No one will believe you until they are faced with the same insanity. Rest assured they will not think you are lying soon enough.

originally posted by: NightSkyeB4Dawn

The one thing they all had in common, is that they thought that America was the magical place where money flowed in the streets, and the place where they would be able to live the good life. Some knew they would have to work for it and where willing to work for it. Some were deceived and expected a Life of Riley. All thought that America held the keys to their success and happiness.

No one should be that naive. I was very naive in my youth. The 2 most useless things a person can be is naive and shy.

Many immigrants, no matter what they believed, have become independent and successful. It can be done.

I'm a "Trim the Fat and Getter Done" person. Excuses just get in the way. It took me years to understand that.

I don't believe the average American begrudges anyone the chance to fulfill their dreams. The average American is struggling to fulfill their own. The problem arises when someone takes their keys and drives off with their car. I doesn't matter if the car is broken down and in need of repair, or that they are still struggling to pay off the loan on it. It is not mean, selfish, or uncompassionate, if they refuse to hand over their car and if they fight to keep it.

That currently seems to be a world issue.

I grew up in an all white Christian neighborhood. There was a Mexican "area" - - we just stayed away from. I could get all arrogant that I am better, superior, etc. I understand it, but its not who I am.

Now I live in a very mixed (both cultural and race) neighborhood. When I look back at my childhood - - all I can think of is - - what I missed in not having/knowing this diversity.

I think I am raising a better child in this diversity.

originally posted by: NightSkyeB4Dawn

originally posted by: BuzzyWigs
a reply to: NightSkyeB4Dawn

This is a spectacularly outrageous analogy of what it means to assist those in need.
No one who is that destitute pays income taxes ----- they pay sales tax when they shop. They pay local and state taxes when they pay their utility bills. They pay taxes, but saying that is akin to garnishing their savings is absurd.
Any person who is in those kind of dire straits has access to public assistance. "Donate your car to your local NPR station, so we can help those in need."

Your venom toward the very people who are trying to help you is misguided and a reflection of the hatefully skewed "picture" of this country that you have been fed. And that you are feeding to others. Please cease and desist.

You are exactly right.......


I don't know where you saw me being venomous towards anyone, least of all towards people that are trying to help. As far as being misguided, I have worked in the career field of case management and victim services long enough to know that you can't build a brick house without bricks.

You can't educate or direct the homeless towards homes, shelters or services that don't exist. I spent 4 hours in a conference yesterday working with over 100 agencies, trying to collaborate on ways to tackle some of the most pressing problems of those in need in our community. We even have people who are writing for grants and pounding the beat on foot, looking for any donations that can be found. No corner is being overlooked, no stone unturned.

All the good intentions in the world does not change the fact that you can't provide what is not available.

You really don't recognize that I am on your side?

I was in that same job ---- for 12 years. I totally get what you are talking about.

a reply to: NightSkyeB4Dawn

Sweetie, please recognize that I am agreeing with you....Please.

a reply to: Annee

Then, seriously (I am not prejudice at all) - - and I am not making this up: Case worker says to me: "You are white, and have a work history - - you don't qualify". She also said to me: "If you tell anyone I said that, I will deny it"

While not a shocker, this scenario is indeed representative of the current climate of American political web activity.

originally posted by: NightSkyeB4Dawn
a reply to: Annee

Unfortunately, you are not alone with your experience in trying to obtain government or state services. This is one of the reasons that many Americans are resentful of help going to immigrants, when they have to struggle, and are told they have to do without.

Oh, I'm sure I'm not alone.

I do not support long term free hand outs. If you don't do something to earn it - - it has no value. I know.

I grew up in poverty, but my mom married a millionaire when I was 13. I think she tried to overcompensate by buying us stuff and paying our bills, etc.

I realize now how it stunted my development in taking care of myself. At first you are appreciative, but it doesn't take long before it becomes expectation.

-------------------------------------------------------------

For humanity, I think every person should have basic needs met. Food, shelter, education, etc.

How to do it is the big question. Gender separated tent cities - - not a bad idea to start. BUT - - and that is a SERIOUS BUT - - there must be a realistic way for every person to earn their way out to something better.

Realistic incentive programs - - with realistic rewards. Lackeys? "No room at the Inn".

a reply to: imwilliam

Yes. Good. Thank you. I woke up this morning thinking of Catholic Charities, who provided me with much-needed talk-therapy, and the guy never ONCE brought up "religion." No "religion" required. That was twenty years ago.

dp

originally posted by: BuzzyWigs
a reply to: imwilliam

Yes. Good. Thank you. I woke up this morning thinking of Catholic Charities, who provided me with much-needed talk-therapy, and the guy never ONCE brought up "religion." No "religion" required. That was twenty years ago.

Catholic Charities and the Catholic Church are separate.

Mormon's and Catholic Charities work very closely with each other.

-------------------------------------------------------------

I gotta say - - in my Mormon years - - they actually get it right.

Charity really is a major core of the Mormon belief.

If they'd just get rid of those Old Fart Elders - - who are more out of touch then the Catholic Pope.

a reply to: imwilliam

Yes. Like I said: Catholic Charities is apart from the Evangelical "Salvation Army" or "Goodwill" traps.

I am a huge fan of Pope Francis. What I am upset about right now is people saying that "Catholics aren't Christians," and "the Pope is the anti-christ".....

it's delusional, sick, and counterproductive.

Thanks for chiming in.