Did Paul Invent Christianity?

a reply to: ChesterJohn

Read the Bible and you will see plenty of times God killed more men by his means that by Israels men.

Which was my point...YHWH ordered MANY people to kill (for him). I know he also killed, but he also ordered many humans to kill for him. What happened to the commandment that say's "Thou shall not kill"?

There are more examples if you read the Bible enough to be familiar with it. (Which you aren't as I have shown you proofs of the Holy Ghost being a he and yet you choose to ignore the truth to hang on to the teachings of man over God's preservation).

How in the heck do you even think I could debate the Bible with you, if I was not "FAMILIAR" with it??? Good grief, dude.
I don't even have to look up "chapter and verse" most the time. Just quit "labeling" me. It's all you fall back on when you have no intellectual, honest response.

Yahweh is a figment of Scholars imagination His name is Jehovah and the true English transliteration of the Hebrew JHVH is LORD. And if yo knew anything when the Hebrews read the JHVH they never said Jehovah but the Herbrew equivalent to our English word LORD. It is this reading from them that the translators chose to follow rather than the literally JHVH/Jehovah. As the Jehovah Restored Bible does by making JHVH all Jehovah. The reason behind the Hebrews using LORD ever time the read JHVH was so they would not use his name in vain.

Um, I think the only reason you can even say that is because you hang on for dear life to the "King James" version of the Bible...correct? Do you think the translators that came up with the King James are the only translators who were actually "led by the HOLY GHOST", Chester?

Oh, and YHWH or YHVH IS the way it was written in Paleo Hebrew. The vowels were added in by the corrupt priesthood...WHO eventually led to the Bible we have today.

I'm really curious....exactly what church denomination do you affiliate yourself with?

originally posted by: kibric
a reply to: SethTsaddik

you need a good source of cadavers to practise necromancy

can i be Christian and still practise with my lifeless friends ?

Do you need my permission or something?

Go ahead.

originally posted by: galadofwarthethird
a reply to: SethTsaddik

Why are you asking me all these questions, it's not even my thread and my opinion about Paul is obviously low whether he existed or not?

Your right, it is not your thread. You were merely on the same page as my response and I being lazy and not wanting to read to the whole thing responded to you as a way to save the few seconds it would have taken me to go back to the OP and formulate a better answer.

But since were on the subject of Paul. How is it that your opinion of a possibly made up charter in a story is low?

Have you ever read a book?

With a villain you had a low opinion of?

I think you should be starting to realize about now how ridiculous that question was, if not, I feel bad for you.

Fictitious literary characters can be despicable too.

You do realize that if like you say you may believe its all made up or pieced together then having a low opinion on a possible fictional character is like having a low opinion of Rudolph the red nose reindeer and doubting that his nose was a bright as the tales tell it was.

Does it not seem a bit illogical to be so worked up over what may be a fictional character in a made up story.

Asked and answered.

But anyways, not sure what this whole thread was about. But not like it matters. We may be arguing about fairy tales here each and every one of them, completely or no so completely made up, and some of them not even that, but stitched together and poorly from other older tales, religion all of them and Paul may have more to do in common with a sales pitch then any grand mystery or truth. Trying to come to some sort of logical conclusion from all that is not only an exercise in futility but it is silly.

Now isnt that funny? All of history and so many interpretations all because of a sales pitch once thrown to get a peoples attention, it is after all what priests in them olden days from Rome to Greece and Egypt with there mysteries were, salesmen, selling something that gets peoples attention, peddlers of impossible dreams and far out stories. Who for some reason or other, got taken way to serious by people, and put down into coded law and memetic indoctrination rituals for all to follow.

I think all of history is like one big giant 3 stooges episode, if there is any actual God or Gods, there likely laughing there asses off at the futility and wacky things that the hairless ape animal gets up to. If they have asses that is after all its all just assuming, would not want to presume now would we? For all we know on the higher loftier realms were said god or god dwells they excrete waste materials by some other means or ways. Asses may be a thing of the past.

Sounds like you are "not sure" about a lot.

Things will improve.

a reply to: SethTsaddik

you forget that Israel for got to expel all the Canaanites out of the land therefore they remained some who were put in subjugation. Simon the Canaanite is just that a Canaanite. Any school child knows that if one is ca called Canaanite they are a Canaanite.

Mt 10:4 Simon the Canaanite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him.
Mr 3:18 And Andrew, and Philip, and Bartholomew, and Matthew, and Thomas, and James the [son] of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus, and Simon the Canaanite,

Simon the Canaanite is represented in the twelve as one who is a stranger but lives by the ways of JHVH in all manner of the Laws, customs and traditions of Moses. It would be one law for them as it was for Israel. seek the scriptures and see if what I say is true concerning the stranger who would live in Israel and under their laws.

What ever happened to Mollochino?

Which by the way in Italian has the meaning of "one having an evil eye" or "a man with an evil eye." It comes from then root word Mollochio adding the "n" makes it "a person with" or "a man with"

To protect yourself from this Italian superstition is to buy a horn. You have seen it on people necks many times.



superstitions are something we Christians do not give ourselves over to, seeing we are in Christ and those things no longer affect us. broken mirrors, black cats crossing the path, crack on sidewalks, needing round fruits on the new year, rabbits foot or any other.

This is why Paul found the Athenians very superstitious, as they have a shrine to worship so as not to be affected by that god for doing wrong to them. The one Paul showed them was known as "the Unknown God". They covered all their superstitious beliefs for their own benefit.

He is still unknown to many today but can be known in and by the person Jesus Christ who died on the cross for all men to have forgiveness of their sins, you can accept this and be saved or rejected and be damned the choice is always up to each man before he dies.

ATTENTION:

THE TOPIC IS NOT EACH OTHER OR OPINIONS OF EACH OTHER!
If this continues anyone involved will be Posting Banned for a few days to stop it - FINAL WARNING.

Do not reply to this warning.

originally posted by: ChesterJohn
a reply to: SethTsaddik

no it is I actually accused Allah, not Jesus/Jehovah for it i s he that needs men to do his killing for him'

Same thing, same God. Allah is Arabic for The God as apposed to an idol god, which would not be Allah as it applies to the God of Arabic and Arabic speaking Christians too.

Abrahamic faiths are Judaism whose major Prophet is Moses, a revered Prophet in the Qur'an, Christianity whose main Prophet and Messiah is Jesus son of the Virgin Mary and they are also revered in the Qur'an and throughout Islam, the third Abrahamic religion, as are all the Prophets up to Mohammed.

Ishmael was Abraham's first son, had 12 sons like Jacob with 12 tribes that became the Arabs. Persians are not Arabs but are Semites, as are Arabs and non Askenazi Jews, who are Caucasian Japhethites. Still Jews though. They converted centuries ago.

Yes that's right both Arabs and Persians are Semites. Descendants of Shem.

Arabs through Abraham.

None of which matters as I'm white and a Muslim and there are black Jews, Samaritans who use only the Torah and Joshua, Arabic Christians who worship Allah and Issa/Jesus and Jewish atheists. Sabbatean Frankists and Yohhanite Christians who mimic the Mandaeans and Sufi Muslims who utilize the Bible as well as Zoroastrian, Hindu scripture and neo Platonic philosophy who inspired modern day Kabbalism and the medieval Zohar that even Renaissance Catholics and modern Christians used/use.

Muslims shelter Arab Christians who have been persecuted by the militant IS. They don't hate them and have always lived together peacefully. Same with Jews in most times and places, Palestine being the exception not the rule and not like that prior to 1948 when Palestinian territories were annexed by now Israel, unprovoked.

Regardless.


If you say that about Allah you say it about Jehovah/Yahweh or God, plain and simple. It's not a matter of opinion and something you can debate, it's a matter of fact.

Saying that they are not the same is incorrect on a factual level, any Jewish, Christian or Muslim scholar will say the same thing if they want to work and/or be taken seriously.

Besides that you have no ability to change the fact that the same God as Jews and Christians is also worshipped by Muslims.

None whatsoever. End of story.

The bible reveals that Jehovah is capable to defend himself and needs not man.

So does the Qur'an.

I nor Islam ever said he needed man, you did.

Drone arr used by Men but not in the name of any god.

If people are at war it's not over religion.

Definitely not just not on the side you are on while the other side's religion is a factor.

It doesn't work like that.

There was an invasion that could have led to change had it been handled better. We left a power vacuum, in an already Muslim nation, so anyone who fills that vacuum is going to be Muslim and to blame 1.5 billion people and your own God (whether you like it or not) and not acknowledging any of the facts like it doesn't matter who or why drones kill.

They kill. Innocent lives more often than not. Religion is irrelevant at this point. It just happens to be the religion of the nation most at war right now but we are involved in half of that war with Muslims on our side against other Muslims and responsible for mass destruction and evacuation of entire cities. Millions displaced.

Wake up and read a news article or watch a documentary before you go off blaming Islam for ISIS when you are talking to another American who knows it's a result of our failure in Iraq that was for reasons that turned out to be lies.

an Islamic just drove a truck through a market killing Innocent men women and children.

Never has a Cristian do that to Islam while on their holy days.

No government involved in raids against Islamic terrorist is doing so in the name of any god.

If you are a friend to the west then do tell how is we can stop these terrorist?

Iraq was attacked because a president took action against false lies given by the intelligence agency.

So who re our friends in the middle east, and how do we stop the Islamic terrorist?

Are you willing to speak out against the terrorist?

At this point I see no point in communicating with you because you are just not someone who knows what's going on, you only want to slander Islam and paint it as a religion of terrorists.

There are people like that, but thankfully most people know better than to fall for that. 1.5 billion Muslims in the world and a major majority don't even know a terrorist. Hate terrorism and know it is used to slander their peaceful religion but have to go about their business because you don't know any better.

originally posted by: ChesterJohn
a reply to: SethTsaddik

you forget that Israel for got to expel all the Canaanites out of the land therefore they remained some who were put in subjugation. Simon the Canaanite is just that a Canaanite. Any school child knows that if one is ca called Canaanite they are a Canaanite.

Mt 10:4 Simon the Canaanite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him.
Mr 3:18 And Andrew, and Philip, and Bartholomew, and Matthew, and Thomas, and James the [son] of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus, and Simon the Canaanite,

Simon the Canaanite is represented in the twelve as one who is a stranger but lives by the ways of JHVH in all manner of the Laws, customs and traditions of Moses. It would be one law for them as it was for Israel. seek the scriptures and see if what I say is true concerning the stranger who would live in Israel and under their laws.

That was never my point, I didn't forget.

My point was Simon only lived in Phoenicia, which is what Canaan was called then, and that as A ZEALOT he was without question a Jew/Judean/Israelite.

That you attempted to say the 12 apostles weren't 12 in number because of the 12 tribes do to Simon being a Canaanite, which doesn't make sense and isn't true as in genetic Canaanite but his place of residence or something completely lost and meaningless but likely residence.

Zealots were Jews, Simon was a Zealot. His being called a Canaanite, for whatever reason, doesn't void the symbolic reason for there being only 12 apostles. Matthias replaced Judas and was the final apostle for #12.

Because there were 12 tribes. There could not be 11 tribes so Benjamin was spared, 13 so Ephraim and Manessah were 1/2 tribes, until the captivity there was 12. Never more.

So neither can there be a 13th apostle. It's not possible. Revelation confirmed it in the New Jerusalem vision too.

Paul is out, not an apostle by anyone's standards but his and never called one by one. A liar and false prophet, Biblically speaking he doesn't have the minimum of witnesses to be believed.

a reply to: SethTsaddik

Zelotes was not what he was, if you read the term properly, it is a name by which he was called Zelotes, Pronounced not Zealots but phonically dzay-lo-tace (Zaylotase) in both Greek and English

Luke 6:15 Matthew and Thomas, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon called Zelotes,

It is a Canaanite name transliterated into Greek then into Enlgish. Be cause scholars think they know more than God they add an 'a" such as you did and make it and English word Zealot.

The Hebrew "Kana" is Canaanite, someone who is a native of the Canaanite tribe. Not the area but by blood.

So he is identified as a Canaanite and he has another name, like others apostles did, and it was Phonically pronounced Zaylotase or as it transliterates in spelling from Greek Zelotes, not the ridiculous addition of an "a" scholars wanted it to be Zealot, meaning one who is zealous. Zelotes and Zealot are two different words and two different meanings. To bad scholars show their stupidity because they lack understanding of the plain preserved English Bible. For the meaning you must go tot ha Canaanite dictionary but unfortunately most were destroyed.

It is not pronounced Zealot, is is pronounced Ze-lo-tes (dze-lo-tace/ze-lo-tase depending on your accent).

Simon was added to the twelve as a stranger in the land of Israel. That live under the same laws as Israel, but he still remained a Canaanite and not one of the sons of Israel.

Ex 12:49 One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.
Nu 15:16 One law and one manner shall be for you, and for the stranger that sojourneth with you.
Nu 15:29 Ye shall have one law for him that sinneth through ignorance, [both for] him that is born among the children of Israel, and for the stranger that sojourneth among them.

You failed to search the scriptures to see what I say is true, and until you fully believe in the Bible, you will fail to see that Allah and Jesus/JHVH are not the same God. Allah is a false god or demigod and always will be.

a reply to: SethTsaddik

Have you ever read a book? With a villain you had a low opinion of?

Actually maybe, but I cant think of one. Villains in books and movies are scripted to be that way. Most if not all has little to nothing to do with real life, and if it did it probably would just be awkward if nothing else.

Fictitious literary characters can be despicable too.

Yes they can, but it says nothing for the fictitious literary charter and everything about the ones reading about them.

Oh and I am quite sure that all of this is a big joke that just got taken serious. In fact deathly serious, does not say anything about the joke. Only about those who took it deathly serious.

a reply to: galadofwarthethird

I am not one to let personal theories like my thinking Marcion entirely invented the guy dominate a thread about a separate issue, I made a thread FOR that purpose.

I am giving Christianity the benefit of the doubt as the Pauline epistles regardless had an impact, historical or invention of men.

So it doesn't matter because by the time anybody cared he was or would have been dead, in the first century he doesn't exist to history.

It really makes no difference at this point whether he existed or not. And I am free to argue from either perspective as neither can be verified.

Your whole line of questioning is just pestering. Good talking to ya.

a reply to: ChesterJohn

I am not going to debate whether or not Simon the Zealot was a Judean or Jewish because he definitely was, whatever he was called a Zealot or zealous for the law.

But either way he was a Jew and zealous.

And your initial premise and subsequent attempts to justify it, that because Simon was called Canaanite, which ignored the fact that his zealousness obviously means he was a Jew, are hilarious. That and the fact that he was an apostle of the Jewish Messiah should have been a hint but you spoke before you thought.

You know he was Jewish. If you don't you are the only person who I have ever met who would suggest otherwise due to it being ridiculous.

And untrue.

And as there could only be 12 tribes and apostles and we're only 12.

Regardless of Simon's being a Jew.

Sorry, and they were all Jewish.

Especially zealous old Simon.

I think ultimately the Bible must be held to its own standards.

I seem to remember a law of two or three witnesses somewhere mentioned as a way to prevent liars and false prophets, people of the sort, from claiming divine authority and using it to fool people.

Maybe for Christmas someone could show me Paul's even one witness. Eye witness, not later were told about but witnessed Paul speaking to Jesus.

I know I would be disappointed if I wished for that!

a reply to: ChesterJohn

The ultimate point of this thread, questioning whether Paul was a true disciple or the founder of his own movement that broke away from and had different beliefs than Jesus, James and the apostles, disciples of the Nazarene and the Nazarene himself, is answered best by your "gospel of the kingdom of grace" belief that has nothing to do with Jesus and comes from only Paul.

And Paul was not an apostle. Not of Jesus.

Paul was an apostle of Paul. He went among people who knew no better and preached a lie, namely, that he was an apostle of Christ, God and had the "true gospel." I doubt he had much success as his biggest fan was the heretic par excellence Marcion whose movement posed the biggest threat to Rome's and the garbage letters of the virtual nobody Paul were uncared about until the mid to late second century.

He just wasn't one of the 12 apostles, there were only 12 with the only replacement being Matthias for Judas and fin. No more apostles after that.

Making Paul a liar with nobody to back him up. The closest thing in the Bible is "brother" in 2 Peter and that is the status of even the lowest member of the church, and a courtesy that is followed by less than complimentary words so not a pledge of support in any way, never mind being an apostle like the 12.

How arrogant and childish of Paul to pretend he had an imaginary friend ''Jesus" who gave him ''revelations.". Assign himself a title that was not given him.

The apostles must have thought him insane and sent him off into Rome not caring if any Romans listen to him and probably thought he was hilarious at first. I guess they underestimated the ignorance of the average Roman citizen and a century or 3 later the ignorant are in power in the Roman version of a Jewish Messianic movement and love the nonsensical ramblings of Paul and started to pretend they made sense. Soon the Jewish faction that went back to Jesus would be exterminated so no one could claim legitimacy over Rome.

Paul was just an undiagnosed schizophrenic with a pen, whose letters never even got sent and were just put somewhere until he died and then Marcion found them.

With no witnesses.

a reply to: SethTsaddik

I never said the 12 apostles represented the 12 tribes of Israel you and molocchino did.

originally posted by: ChesterJohn
a reply to: SethTsaddik

I never said the 12 apostles represented the 12 tribes of Israel you and molocchino did.

I am well aware that I said this and never denied it.

Or said you said it.

You can't even follow along with a simple train of thought that began with me bringing up your previous blunder in not having a clue that the 12 apostles were 12 for a beyond obvious reason.

That reason being the 12 TRIBES. 12 Tribes, 12 apostles, but I guess you not seeing the obvious or true is what I have come to expect from you as you are not the most well informed person I am used to it.

At least TRY and follow along. When I accuse you of something get it straight, what I accuse you of now and then is NOT KNOWING WHY they were 12.

Which you remarkably demonstrated just now, to the point I don't need to.

Thanks!

Now go back to not knowing a thing about, yet still hating, Islam.

You are good at that. Debating Christianity?

Not so much. You do it a disservice by trying.