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originally posted by: RomeByFire
Then you deflect the FACT that Obama has deported more illegals than any other president in the history of this nation, and tell me "I've been lied to." Okay, bud - enlighten me, then. Source me up, fam.
Somehow, the Obama administration is simultaneously responsible for the highest rate of deportation in 20 years and a 26 percent drop in deportation. What is going on here? As it turns out, changes in immigration law, terminology and classification are causing this confusion.
High deportation figures are misleading
But the portrait of a steadily increasing number of deportations rests on statistics that conceal almost as much as they disclose. A closer examination shows that immigrants living illegally in most of the continental U.S. are less likely to be deported today than before Obama came to office, according to immigration data.
originally posted by: Krazysh0t
This is why we used to compromise in this country, but these days the right seems to think that compromising is a betrayal to their party. Obviously some people go too far in their rhetoric, that's why we are supposed to seek a happy middle ground. Not bitch and whine until you get 100% everything you want.
If I could never hear the acronym "RINO" again I'd be a happy camper. The idea of ejecting someone from your party because they dared to compromise with a liberal is one of the most un-American things I've ever heard of.
I'm just trying to make it clear here that I'm not looking to have a political mud battle. You look like you are trying to give me an intelligent discourse here so I'd like to keep it that way. Not trying to offend either.
originally posted by: Grambler
First, I did not criticize Obama for anything until you brought it up. I was merely stating (as you have agreed) that even if we disagree with laws, if your caught you have to be held accountable. If Obama is doing this great, but that doesn't mean Trump or Hillary or anyone else still can't try to solve the problem better.
Regardless of how compassionate his executive actions were, my point was he made actions that went against federal laws about illegals. Read my previous posts, I don't agree with kicking out hard working non criminal illegals either.
As far as sanctuary cities. I know these aren't created by Obama. But he hasn't done anything to enforce the laws there, he has ignored this and allowed these cities to refuse to comply with federal law.
As far as border agents, maybe Obama did increase the number of them, I will take your word for it. But these agents are largely upset with Obama because they claim he is telling them to release illegals or not bother arressting them in the first place.
Wasserman Schultz said, "President Obama has the most border patrols and border security deployed at the border of any previous president."
She is correct that the highest number of border patrol agents has been under Obama: there were 21,444 in 2011. Wasserman Schultz was careful here and said "most" and didn’t talk about the growth rate. But it’s worth noting that the big growth was during Bush’s tenure: between 2001 and 2009, the number of agents posted nationally rose from about 9,800 to a little more than 20,000.
Other border security measures are not as simple to quantify. The key piece of infrastructure -- the fence -- was launched under Bush. Work on the fence and other border security improvements continued under Obama.
We rate this claim Mostly True.
www.washingtontimes.com...
Even dangerous criminal illegals are allowed to go free.
www.washingtonexaminer.com...
California has been ordered to release nearly 10,000 inmates by the end of the year to resolve a notorious overcrowding problem that's been brewing for decades.
The Golden State's prison crisis reached a fever pitch in 2011 after the Supreme Court said the overcrowding amounted to "cruel and unusual punishment." Now all eyes are on liberal Gov. Jerry Brown, who insists the public's safety will be jeopardized if he releases the inmates.
The mass release would only bring prisons down to 137% of their capacity.
And who can forget the mass child immigrant crisis, with children coming alone and claiming they heard Obama would let them live in America if the got there.
www.ibtimes.com...
And also, why is Obama given a free pass for his deportations, and yet the MSM and others like HIllary (not you) call other people who want to deport illegals racist?
The Obama administration has fired on all cylinders to ensure that it can respond to another surge, but critics say one of the most crucial aspects of dealing with the crisis -- namely, getting immigrants access to lawyers -- still hasn’t been settled.
But at the same time he IS enforcing them for violent criminals and repeat border hoppers. Selective enforcement isn't non-enforcement. I hope you understand this.
So what happens to the children that are citizens of the US but not citizens of their parent's country? Do we break up the families or send the children home with them, thus making them illegals in that country?
originally posted by: efabian
You are mixing two separate situations to logically justify your point here. The enforcement has to be seen in a case-for-case basis. Either you enforce the law in all of the cases, or the law does not have judicial validity. In law, a double standard of this nature renders the law meaningless due to the fault of objectivity.
Here I agree that some new processes have to be put forth to deal with this uncharted area. Personally, I do think that some sort of compromise should be done.
1. The illegals in these situations could be granted some sort of legal process to fast-track them to citizenship.
2. BUT I would eliminate the "anchor baby" loophole for new children from illegal immigrants. Note that a constitutional amendment (or a redefinition) may have to be done here.
With the above, the issue could be dealt with legally and future immigrants will be discouraged to come illegally.
originally posted by: Krazysh0t
Well this is hard for Obama to do. He can send federal troops to a city and try to force them to cooperate, but if the city resists still it can figure out tons of ways to do so.
I mean it is the same thing as the DEA sending federal agents to raid dispensaries or grow operations in states before the marijuana experiment started. If a state didn't want to comply, they could just refuse to provide any police support to the DEA when they do their raids and there is nothing the federal government could do there. Besides, I guess, withhold federal funding from them, but that is a decision Congress has to make not the President.
So here's a thought. Congress can always withhold funding from these sanctuary cities. With the Republican lead Congress, why haven't they tried to do this yet, instead opting to blame all of this on Obama? It's not like Congress is powerless here either.
Wasserman Schultz said, "President Obama has the most border patrols and border security deployed at the border of any previous president."
She is correct that the highest number of border patrol agents has been under Obama: there were 21,444 in 2011. Wasserman Schultz was careful here and said "most" and didn’t talk about the growth rate. But it’s worth noting that the big growth was during Bush’s tenure: between 2001 and 2009, the number of agents posted nationally rose from about 9,800 to a little more than 20,000.
Other border security measures are not as simple to quantify. The key piece of infrastructure -- the fence -- was launched under Bush. Work on the fence and other border security improvements continued under Obama.
We rate this claim Mostly True.
Are you aware that this has to do with prison overcrowding? Obama doesn't do it because he likes it. It's necessary because we don't have the space to hold them. In fact, Obama isn't the one responsible for this even happening. SCOTUS is because they ruled it cruel and unusual punishment to put all those illegals together in overcrowded prisons.
How can you hold Obama responsible for people south of the border being misinformed? Even your source claims that the Obama admin was trying to prevent that from happening again in 2015 (and since we are halfway though 2016 I guess it worked)
originally posted by: Grambler
Why couldn't Obama pass executive orders to stop these cities from getting federal funding? He passed other immigration orders, so why not this?
As far as congress, 100% agree with you, they are terrible. The truth is like I said, the Democrats do not want to deport illegals or punish them (most of them) and the Republicans like the cheap labor. They are certainly to blame. My criticism of Obama by no means take away from the fact I feel congress has been worthless on this issue.
Fair enough. I still think though that the border agents are upset at Obama, hence there support of Trump. If Obama is deporting as many people as is suggested, why are they upset with him? They seem to claim that the administration is telling them to release people, and not even bother arresting them in the first place. What good is a huge amount of agents if they are told not to dteain people?
But even if the prisons are overcrowded, why not deport them? To just release them into the country is ludicrous. Even if this isn't Obama's fault, it is still a serious issue that needs resolved, hence why its a bad idea for people like HUllary to clame anyone suggesting deportations is a racist.
Secondly, Obama or congress could end the war on drugs, and release non violent drug offenders. This would free up tons of space. And why are places like California choosing to release dangerous illegals instead of non violent drug offenders. This makes no sense.
Again, one of my points is that trying to answer these tough immigration questions doesn't make one a bigot. Does it upset you that Hillary and many others on the left and in the MSM call people on the right that want to deport people racist but don't levy that accusation at Obama?
Again, it doesn't matter if Obama was responsible, it shows the need to make strong immigration action. If there were more deportations and a clearer stance that these people would not be left in, they would come. The article I cited also shows that many politicians wanted to give these children amnesty. This, combined with the fact that ICE agents are saying the Obama administration is telling them to let people go would help lead to the perception that these kids thought they could stay.
And the part you quoted said Obama was trying to prevent another surge, which is of course true, but that doesn't mean he wasn't partially responsible for it in the first place. I am willoing to spread the blame around, all of the politicians that encouraged illegal immigration for whatever reason, both Republican and Democrat, helped send the message that these kids thought they could stay.
Well as we all know most laws are enforced selectively. How often do we hear about someone getting off for affluenza and other stuff? Sure in a perfect world all the laws would be applied equally to everyone, but that isn't the case and you know. I'm kind of glad that our current system allows for nuance. Not everyone deserves to have the book thrown at them.
I'm sorry, but this is a TERRIBLE idea.
For one you are wrong and this won't discourage people from coming here illegally. Fleeing desperate situations has little to do with gaining citizenship for you or your children.
For two, these children would become stateless people. They would have no citizenship anywhere and would end up being a legal nightmare. Don't believe me? Just look at the other countries that have applied this boned-headed idea.
Here's an article about it:
Born Stateless
and here is another article on how ending birthright citizenship would vastly expand government and government bureaucracy:
Why Ending Birthright Citizenship Would Create A Nightmare For Everyone
originally posted by: Krazysh0t
Because Obama doesn't control federal funding. Congress does.
Like I said, the overcrowding prison thing is the issue. If you catch someone and don't have space to put them anyways SCOTUS says we can't keep them. Unfortunately these border agents are merely blaming Obama, who is following SCOTUS' ruling, instead of looking deeper at the reasons for these executive actions and orders.
Deportation costs money. You need to process and catalog them (for cases of repeat offenders), you need to pay someone to ship them over there, transportation costs, you need to arrange for the receiving country to pick these people up, and you need a place to hold these people until all these things are done. It's not a simple matter of "just deport them". That is too simple of a way to look at it.
You keep bringing this red herring up again and again. I. DON'T. CARE. what people call you. The right seems to have new and colorful slurs for anything liberal every other day and I deal with it just fine. You can deal with people calling you or other right wingers racist. Hell why are you complaining about being called racist? Where's your complaints about right wingers and all their demeaning slurs towards leftists?
So forgive me for the callousness here, but you need to police your own camp before you should start leveling accusations at the other side for argumentative misconduct.
You know what I think should be done instead of trying to actively punish people (since I don't believe punishment is an adequate deterrent towards criminality)? I think we should be actively improving our legal immigration avenues. Reducing the costs of immigrating, not making it a nightmare to do so (why do potential immigrants have to go to the US embassy in their home country to process their immigration paperwork?)
We should maybe work with the countries that all these people emigrate from to improve the standard of living there. If they like it in their home country, they won't want to leave. Things like that.
I tire of always "fixing" our problems like a hammer hitting a nail. I'm for nuanced approaches, but nuanced approaches require knowledge, critical thought, and being informed. Unfortunately it is easier to just go with the simple approaches so here we are again fighting the "immigration battle" for the umpteenth time in our country because we haven't learned from the last times we've done this song and dance.
originally posted by: efabian
Tricky slope indeed with the subjectivity while enforcing laws here. But immigration laws do affect regular citizens, ergo, no law should be enforced in a way that it negatively affects the regular citizens of the US. By negative I mean issues like the increased tax burden, wage stagnation due to oversupply of workforce, etc..
It will eliminate any means for the illegals to gain citizenship through their children, ergo making it harder to force the hand of the legal system.
About the first article, if you read through it you would see that even the judge in Poland stated that if the parents kept pushing this citizen issue, she would end up deported to Romania. Ergo, there are means for her to be a Romanian citizen. But conveniently, the article does not give details about the so-called Romanian laws that does not let her be a citizen under the circumstances.
This leads me to believe that the article is more of a biased presentation of the facts to further the issue that the parents want Poland citizenship for her, not Romanian. No objective argument is done.
Now, the second one does bring some interesting points. I concur with the bureaucratic issue and it does indeed make the redefinition a nightmare, so I'll desist from my initial position.
But if a process to fast-track the illegal parents of children already in the US is to be put forth, there has to be another way to limit the availability to future illegals. If another solution to do this is not found, well there is no way to make a compromise with the parents of illegals and if they are deported they'll be leaving orphans here in the US sadly.