Revelation 17...???

a reply to: the2ofusr1

Even Bart seems to come across as a walking contradiction who talks out of both sides of his face ....Could it be that that is all it is or is there something else that might explain Barts book ? $$ ...or some kind of a hate on for Christianity .....hard to say ..

Yeah, he's made a pact with the "Devil". I appreciate his research and his candidness. But, he walks both sides of the aisle. Bats for both teams.

So are you saying nobody knew Jesus or seen Him die and no one seen the resurrected Jesus ?

If the Bible gives an accurate account of a zealots execution by the Roman's, and a walking, talking, hurting, hungry and eating Jesus emerged 3 days later, then he didn't die, but survived his injuries.

Perhaps the Bible stretches the truth and loved ones and followers saw and felt the presence of a ghost. Or, perhaps the resurrection story was a concocted fairy tale to turn a man into a deity, in the manner of Julius Caesar's deification, or in the wake of Hercules, whom early Christians father would later compare Jesus to, in justification against pagan criticism.

No, I don't believe in the virgin birth, the various miracles that Jesus is said to perform. I don't believe in magical celestial spells in which a god incarnates and dies unto himself in order to forgive his creation for being what he created. So, no I can't reconcile fantastical biblical tales with reality.

a reply to: windword

Fair enough .Something you said earlier is partly true and that is this notion of not questioning the Bible .I was told something similar by a RCC Priest but it was more along the lines of I could never understand it and so needed him to explain it . I question all things and thought at the time that God would not create a message His creation couldn't understand individually . It was many many years later that I decided to read the book for myself . The priest was partly correct but the more I studied it and the more I believed it the better a picture emerged . Its a very large Mosaic with small detailed pictures . Its kind of a fractal in away . Layers and textures . It has a beginning and a end .It has a central piece to which all other pieces are stitched to ....Its something man was and is not capable of producing ,but is a part of . A study into the errors is another part of the Mosaic as well .Looking at the Gnostic writings is another texture of the Bible and the Dead Sea Scrolls put a patina of antiquity that makes it priceless . Even Bart must be amazed but what he has discovered studying it .

a reply to: the2ofusr1

He was amazed...

thats why he abandoned Christianity... After being a pastor, going through seminary... and preaching for years

a reply to: Akragon

I fell sad for Dr. Ehrman, even Dr. Metzger tried to help him before he died.

originally posted by: Joecroft
a reply to: NOTurTypical

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
Hey Joe, normally in prophetic language a religion is spoken of as a woman, a whore or prostitute is a false religion or worship practice. Oftentimes idolatry is spoken of as harlotry or fornication spiritually.

I think the majority of posters on this thread are in agreement that the Woman/Whore represents some kind of Religion…as I do myself…

But a false Religion equates to something evil…and if it’s evil why does the beast and Kings/Horns rise up against it…?


- JC

Evil will destroy evil.



My understanding of Revelation 17

Revelation is, was and shall be.

We are the Old People
We are the New People
We are the Same People

Call it as you will, the beast is God's enemy.

The whore is money. Money gives power to all who possess it. Any one can possess money, money is a whore.

The system the whore gives power to is Babylon; The banking system was invented in Babylon.

The horns are kings.

kings = heads
heads = ideologies including religions - Revelation is to humanity that believes as we will.

The ideologies will come to loathe the whore and seek to destroy it

Evil will eat itself.

a reply to: teapot

Evil will never destroy itself, Jesus said that a kingdom divided cannot stand. Satan won't destroy his own kingdom, the Lord will when He returns.

a reply to: DISRAELI

Originally posted by DISRAELI
But you include yourself when you say "we", especially when you do so unnecessarily and refuse to abandon it.

No that’s where you’re wrong. I didn’t include myself when I said the word “WE”, and there’s no possible way you could have concluded that from what I wrote…you’ve really just leapt to an assumption, one that isn’t true…

Simple example…let’s just say person A is against something and doesn’t agree with it etc…and states the following…

Person A…”Hey “We” shouldn’t join that movement that you guys think is great, because they are corrupt to the core…”

Person A is including himself, (by using the word “We”) but only because he’s part of that group, (part of the group, as in part of the community/Kingdom in which he lives in etc…) but he’s not following the corruption himself, which means he’s not part of the collective “We” that is following or is going to follow that corruption…

Simply put, when Person A says “We” he’s speaking from the perspective of the group and his community; but at the same time he’s not using the word “We” to also identify himself along with all of the group/people who are following the corruption…because Person A is not following the corruption himself…

It’s the same parallel for the Saints, in that they’re part of the Kingdom i.e. the “WE”…but they’re not part of the people (“We”) following the corruption…

Make sense…?

Or are going to continue to insist on how I meant the word “WE”…?

Originally posted by DISRAELI
When black Americans complain about the hisory of slavery, do they describe the old slave-owners as "we"? Do they not rather say "THEY used to enslave US"?

The Kingdom that the Kings are giving up, is made up of people though. The word “they” is all of them put together…and the Saints might not agree with it, but it will by proxy effect them too…

Originally posted by DISRAELI
All these people in Revelation ch17 are setting themselves against "the saints". That is the whole point of the picture. That is what they are being deceived to do. Therefore "the saints" cannot be counted amongst them, and will not call them "we". The saints are not associates in their own persecution

I agree, but the Saints are still living among the Kingdoms that are getting deceived, even if the Saints understand or know what the Harlot is, because presumably they understand what the false Religious system is, either now, or in the future etc…

But this is why I asked you that original question, as to what the Harlot could be i.e. what False belief system is it…? …So we’ve kind of come full circle from my first reply to your initial post…


- JC

originally posted by: NOTurTypical
a reply to: teapot

Evil will never destroy itself, Jesus said that a kingdom divided cannot stand. Satan won't destroy his own kingdom, the Lord will when He returns.

Evil will never be destroyed, it is a valid catalyst to cause changes within Positive/Negative systems charges (perception of the negative charge as evil is just faulty human judgement; personalizing bad outcomes when its actually a natural system in process. The basis of this system is to progress; not to trip itself up or destroy itself. Do you understand, to destroy Itself would be insane and pointless. If this creation came to conclusion (end) what was the point in catastrophic failure (runs contrary to natural processes) as there is always a success via small adjustments to the system.

ATTENTION THREAD PARTICIPANTS

I just want take a quick census of opinions…

If you’ve been following the discussion between me and DISRAELI you might have some idea as to what it is…

Feel free to read through our entire discussion if you wish to get a better sense of both opinions etc…


Here’s the question…

Is Revelations verse 17 just referring to the Kings only giving their Kingdom unto Beast…Or does the entire context of the whole chapter suggest that it’s the Kings and also the People who give their Kingdom unto the Beast…?

According to DISRAELI it’s ONLY the Kings that are giving their Kingdom unto the Beast… because according to his reasoning, it’s in direct context with the verse directly above it…i.e. verse 16…where it talks about the Horns etc…with the Horns being code for Kings…

According to me the People AND the Kings are giving their Kingdom unto the Beast…IMO… Because…

The overall context of the entire chapter, is stating that the Harlot is in the waters, the waters represents the people and the nations. The Harlot is deceiving both the People and the Kings…And verse 13 states that they are all one mind…

Also it makes perfect logical sense in my opinion, that Kings rule over the Nations and People, so those people are also going along with this action (even if a few Saints don’t agree with it etc.)

And lastly, it’s people that make up a “Kingdom” not just Kings…

So which is it…?

(A) The People and the Kings…

Or

(B) Just the Kings only…


Have a deep think about it and post your answer with some words explaining why you think that…

Also be aware that if you go with my option (A) DISRAELI may get angry and accuse you of being a part of the “Beast System Agenda” and of being Hostile…forearmed is forewarned…

Good Luck people…

Take care of yourselves and each other…


- JC

a reply to: Joecroft

I think it's just the Kings, the people in those kingdoms will have to choose to follow the beast themselves or lose their head.

a reply to: Joecroft
Who is betting upon who is preparing whose linens for burial first? Let me look at the basis of both rose cutting strategies; I will return.

a reply to: NOTurTypical

Originally posted NOTurTypical
I think it's just the Kings, the people in those kingdoms will have to choose to follow the beast themselves or lose their head.

Firstly the world is not now full of Kings in every Nation…that was only true in the distant past, it’s not relevant in todays day and age…

Also people appoint their rulers, to govern them, so they are just as guilty if they go along with it, by not standing up to it…

Edit too Add…The chapter states that the Kings are being deceived, which IMO is partly why they are giving up their Kingdom…But the people are also being deceived themselves …so they must also be giving up their/the Kingdom as well…

It stands to reason...IMO


- JC

a reply to: Joecroft


Kings is just a metaphor the prophet had for the leader of the nation, I wouldn't be dogmatic about that term. And Revelation says they give their authority to the Beast in 1 hour, that's another reason I believe it's just the Kings of the nations themselves, but seriously, most all of these nations are 95% Muslim anyways and desperate for their Mahdi to return, it won't take the people in the nation very long to get on board.

a reply to: NOTurTypical

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
Kings is just a metaphor the prophet had for the leader of the nation, I wouldn't be dogmatic about that term. And Revelation says they give their authority to the Beast in 1 hour, that's another reason I believe it's just the Kings of the nations themselves, but seriously, most all of these nations are 95% Muslim anyways and desperate for their Mahdi to return, it won't take the people in the nation very long to get on board.

Hold on I’m not following your logic here, what has the one hour thing got do with proving that it’s Kings only…???

Interestingly enough that verse states, that the Kings don’t have a Kingdom yet.

12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

In fact there isn’t a single verse which states when the Kings receive a Kingdom…

- JC

a reply to: NOTurTypical
Most of the clues regarding which beast Babylon the Great is riding (and the one that turns on her because God has put it into their hearts to carry out his judgement, which is btw an answer to one of the questions in the OP, allthough I think someone already gave that answer, the OP himself already acknowledged being aware of it by quoting it, so the question was a bit odd actually) can be found in chapter 13 where multiple beasts are described.

The one Babylon the Great is riding is the image of the beast (note that the image doesn't have diadems, this is a clue as to what it represents). Also knowing what the 2-horned beast (2 horns like a lamb, pretending to be 'the good guys') represents; the one that breaths life into the image of the beast helps a lot with identifying what the image of the beast represents. See the details on page 186-199 in the book I linked to in my previous comment. Chapter 17 starts on page 236.
In the video below discussing Revelation and Daniel sometimes the word "monstrosity" is used instead of "beast":

a reply to: Joecroft

Well, think about this. If every person in the kingdom of the 10 kings also bows down immediately to the antichrist then there won't be anyone losing their heads over refusing to worship him.

a reply to: NOTurTypical

a reply to: vethumanbeing

So the Revelation is wrong then? There will be no new heaven and no new earth where death and pain will be no more?

originally posted by: teapot
a reply to: NOTurTypical

a reply to: vethumanbeing

So the Revelation is wrong then? There will be no new heaven and no new earth where death and pain will be no more?

Sure there will. Why would you think there wouldn't be? After the white throne judgment and after the Earth and universe are destroyed and re-created the new Jerusalem comes from heaven to Earth.

a reply to: NOTurTypical

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
Well, think about this. If every person in the kingdom of the 10 kings also bows down immediately to the antichrist then there won't be anyone losing their heads over refusing to worship him

But the people who are the Saints live in the Kingdom(s) with everyone else, so logically they will be the ones who lose their heads, for presumably making a stand against it…

The people who accept it or who don’t realize the deception (which is the very nature of what being deceived is) will be the ones who keep their heads…

- JC

a reply to: whereislogic

Originally posted by whereislogic
Most of the clues regarding which beast Babylon the Great is riding (and the one that turns on her because God has put it into their hearts to carry out his judgement, which is btw an answer to one of the questions in the OP, allthough I think someone already gave that answer, the OP himself already acknowledged being aware of it by quoting it, so the question was a bit odd actually) can be found in chapter 13 where multiple beasts are described.

Yeah, I quoted it, but I was wanting a better explanation other than just “God put it in their hearts” to do it. I wanted people to think a little bit deeper as to the reasons why…and it’s also connected to my other questions, that I've asked throughout this thread…So there’s nothing odd about it at all…

Speaking of odd though…

From the extract you quoted in your first post…below…

We read, however, that ‘by her spiritistic practice all the nations were misled.’ (Revelation 18:23) This makes it clear that the great harlot must be a worldwide religious entity.

Which religious entity? Is she the Roman Catholic Church, as some have maintained? Or is she all of Christendom? No, she must be even larger than these if she is to mislead all the nations. She is, in fact, the entire world empire of false religion. Her origin in the mysteries of Babylon is shown in that many Babylonish doctrines and practices are common to religions around the earth. For example, belief in the inherent immortality of the human soul, in a hell of torment, and in a trinity of gods is to be found in most Oriental religions as well as in the sects of Christendom. False religion, spawned more than 4,000 years ago in the ancient city of Babylon, has developed into the modern monstrosity that is called, appropriately, Babylon the Great.

Indicating the non-Christian origin of many of apostate Christendom’s doctrines, ceremonies, and practices, 19th-century Roman Catholic cardinal John Henry Newman wrote in his Essay on the Development of Christian Doctrine:

“The use of temples, and these dedicated to particular saints, and ornamented on occasions with branches of trees; incense, lamps, and candles; votive offerings on recovery from illness; holy water; asylums; holydays and seasons, use of calendars, processions, blessings on the fields; sacerdotal vestments, the tonsure, the ring in marriage, turning to the East, images at a later date, perhaps the ecclesiastical chant, and the Kyrie Eleison [the song “Lord, Have Mercy”], are all of pagan origin, and sanctified by their adoption into the Church.”

Rather than sanctify such idolatry, “Jehovah the Almighty” admonishes Christians: “Get out from among them, and separate yourselves, . . . and quit touching the unclean thing.”—2 Corinthians 6:14-18.

According to “true Christianity” people who don’t accept the Trinity are generally considered to not be “true Christians”…

Assuming you believe in this extract above to be true, then you appear to suggesting that Christians have been deceived, but that you somehow are following the right version…how so…?

You appear to be “Christian” (apologies if I’ve got that wrong) so according to you which Christian denomination is the true one…?

- JC