After Orlando, time to recognize that anti-gay bigotry is not religious freedom: Neil Macdonald

a reply to: DBCowboy

Yeah, where were OP's judgey lamentations after Sandy Hook? Violence is not the answer, regardless of who dies or who does the killing.

Bigotry is connected with belief.

As ugly as it may sound to some people, there is a right to be a bigot. We are allowed to think what we want.

What is not to be tolerated is hurting someone physically because of what you believe.

originally posted by: HoldMyBeer
a reply to: DBCowboy

Yeah, where were OP's judgey lamentations after Sandy Hook? Violence is not the answer, regardless of who dies or who does the killing.

If the coward had targeted Christians, then would there be a mandate to stop criticizing Christianity?

Oh wait, ISIS does target Christians regularly.

They are targeting PEOPLE.

To limit OUR freedoms because of who they target, makes absolutely no sense.

How does a Muslim who swore allegiance to ISIS murdering 50 gay people turn in to anti-Christian bigotry on ATS? This does not compute.

originally posted by: ketsuko
Here are list of historical ways the religious have been handled when they get "uppity."

Making laws that deny a group of people their constitutionally-protected rights is not "being uppity".

originally posted by: ketsuko
There is no equivalence except in the language you find. If there was, you'd have had a ton of mass shootings carried out by guys like that one.

We don't have many mass shootings by Christians here in the US, but we do have Christians, as a very powerful force, making laws that deny millions of people their constitutionally-protected rights.

originally posted by: ketsuko
So the majority of us lose our freedom and rights because of the few?

You don't have the freedom to deny others their rights. What freedom are you losing? The freedom to.... ??? You have lost NO rights.

Even Hillary says "freedom to worship" instead of "freedom of religion." There is a HUGE difference between the two phrases.

That's because the religious in this country have defined "freedom of religion" to mean "freedom to deny rights". Freedom of worship is actually correct. You are free to choose your God and worship him in whatever way you see fit, as long as it doesn't deny the rights of others.

And when the state gets into the church, it never goes well.

It's the same for when the church gets into the state, which is what religious freedom laws are.

originally posted by: ketsuko
But his teaching on marriage to the Pharisees was very clear. It had to be. It is between a man and a woman.

If that's what you believe, that's fine. But forcing that definition on the rest of the populace is not fine.

It was really predictable that the Muslim mass shooting in a gay night club would somehow end up being the fault of closed minded Christians. And this site is supposed to deny ignorance?

originally posted by: TheBulk
How does a Muslim who swore allegiance to ISIS murdering 50 gay people turn in to anti-Christian bigotry on ATS? This does not compute.

Leave it to a persecuted Christian to turn an anti-bigotry post into an anti-Christian post! LOL...

But, hey, if the shoe fits.....bigotry is bigotry no matter what belief system it hides behind.

originally posted by: HoldMyBeer
a reply to: tothetenthpower

This thread is such absolute bull#. You do realize there are gay Christians?

Anyways, I don't care what anyone wants to do as long as it doesn't hurt someone else or violate the law. That includes sex or guns or religion. But, the upshot is, I don't want to be told how to think/feel about it, Nor do I want any of it shoved on me or my kids with some agenda driven media, initiatives, protests or asshattery like violence.

You're arguing the exact same position I'm taking.

~Tenth

originally posted by: windword
Leave it to a persecuted Christian to turn an anti-bigotry post into an anti-Christian post! LOL...

Unfortunately, much of Christianity today is about bigotry. Against other religions, against the people they judge as "sinners", against atheists, against women, against the government, against anyone who doesn't fall into line with their beliefs.

And that's OK, as long as they don't ACT to deny these people their freedoms. Think, say whatever you want, but leave me and my rights ALONE!

a reply to: Benevolent Heretic

And that's OK, as long as they don't ACT to deny these people their freedoms. Think, say whatever you want, but leave me and my rights ALONE!

For anybody confused about my point, this above, is exactly it.

The conversation I started was bout not allowing the religious, regardless of what kind they subscribe to, use their faith as a shield to discriminate against people.

~Tenth

originally posted by: windword

originally posted by: TheBulk
How does a Muslim who swore allegiance to ISIS murdering 50 gay people turn in to anti-Christian bigotry on ATS? This does not compute.

Leave it to a persecuted Christian to turn an anti-bigotry post into an anti-Christian post! LOL...

This is going to blow your mind, but I'm not a Christian nor do I believe in religion.

originally posted by: tothetenthpower
a reply to: Benevolent Heretic

And that's OK, as long as they don't ACT to deny these people their freedoms. Think, say whatever you want, but leave me and my rights ALONE!

For anybody confused about my point, this above, is exactly it.

The conversation I started was bout not allowing the religious, regardless of what kind they subscribe to, use their faith as a shield to discriminate against people.

~Tenth

Meanwhile Muslims are mass murdering people while you deflect. Your post is transparent and it's disgusting.

originally posted by: Benevolent Heretic

originally posted by: windword
Leave it to a persecuted Christian to turn an anti-bigotry post into an anti-Christian post! LOL...

Unfortunately, much of Christianity today is about bigotry. Against other religions, against the people they judge as "sinners", against atheists, against women, against the government, against anyone who doesn't fall into line with their beliefs.

Oh really? It sounds like you're making bigoted, broad generalization about people to deflect from the fact a Democrat Muslim just murdered 50 gay people.

a reply to: tothetenthpower

The only way your point could be confusing is if people purposely twist it to serve their agenda of victimization. And there's been plenty of that in this thread.

The whole idea that Christianity is putting forth in this county is that LGBT people, simply by demanding the same rights as everyone else, are "forcing" something (acceptance, tolerance, a "lifestyle" or normalization) down their throats. When the very opposite is true. Christianity, through these bigoted laws, is forcing the LGBT community to live as second-class citizens, without claim to the same rights the rest of us have. And that "normalizes" the idea that it's OK to deny others their rights, as long as it's based on religion.

I don't know what they think these laws are going to do to "fix" the "problem" of the gays, because the only thing it actually does is brings their hateful agenda to light.

originally posted by: Benevolent Heretic
a reply to: tothetenthpower

The only way your point could be confusing is if people purposely twist it to serve their agenda of victimization. And there's been plenty of that in this thread.

Says the person deflecting from their favorite victimized group, a Democrat Muslim who has just mass murdered 50 gay people.

a reply to: TheBulk

originally posted by: windword
Leave it to a persecuted Christian to turn an anti-bigotry post into an anti-Christian post! LOL...

This is going to blow your mind, but I'm not a Christian nor do I believe in religion.

Fair enough, let me rephrase;
Leave it to an apologist for persecuted Christians to turn an anti-bigotry post into an anti-Christian post! LOL...

originally posted by: tothetenthpower
a reply to: Benevolent Heretic

And that's OK, as long as they don't ACT to deny these people their freedoms. Think, say whatever you want, but leave me and my rights ALONE!

For anybody confused about my point, this above, is exactly it.

The conversation I started was bout not allowing the religious, regardless of what kind they subscribe to, use their faith as a shield to discriminate against people.

~Tenth

How can people be so willfully dense?

You said this in your OP, but apparently everyone jumped to their own false conclusions about what they think you said.

You said:

At what point do we start having the national conversation that bigotry is not religious freedom. Not wanting to serve people because of your feelings towards them is not your right or your freedom in the 21st century.

Hello, people?

a reply to: Benevolent Heretic

Y'all have FORCED your daffynitions on Christians by political clout.

Might does not necessarily make right.

That's what the Jihadi's believe.

Y'all's will

will prevail for some years to come.

Much bloodshed will result.

Eventually, a Higher Authority will declare HIS will.

And there will be no argument.

a reply to: Benevolent Heretic

The only way your point could be confusing is if people purposely twist it to serve their agenda of victimization. And there's been plenty of that in this thread.

Indeed... and that goes both ways. For example, by tarring all Christians with the same broad brush and ignoring the MANY Christians who lovingly embrace ALL of God's beloved children, including the LGBT community.

The whole idea that Christianity is putting forth in this county is that LGBT people, simply by demanding the same rights as everyone else, are "forcing" something (acceptance, tolerance, a "lifestyle" or normalization) down their throats.

All of the following are LGBT-Affirming Churches in North America:

Affirming Pentecostal Church International
Anglican Church of Canada
The Anthem Network
Association of Welcoming and Affirming Baptists
AXIOS - Eastern and Orthodox Gay and Lesbian Christians
Baltimore-Washington Conference of the United Methodist Church
Catholic Apostolic Church in North America
Christian Church (Disciples of Christ)
Community of Christ
Ecclesia Gnostica
Ecumenical Catholic Church
Ecumenical Catholic Communion
Episcopal Church (United States)
Eucharistic Catholic Church
Evangelical Anglican Church In America
Evangelical Catholic Church
Evangelical Lutheran Church in America
Evangelical Lutheran Church in Canada
The Evangelical Network
Friends General Conference
Friends of Jesus Fellowship in America
Global Alliance of Affirming Apostolic Pentecostals
Inclusive Orthodox Church
Independent Catholic Christian Church
Independent Greek Orthodox Church of the United States
Metropolitan Community Church
New York Annual Conference of the United Methodist Church
Old Catholic Church
Pacific Northwest Conference of the United Methodist Church
Presbyterian Church (USA)
Progressive Christian Alliance
Reconciling Pentecostals International
Reformed Anglican Catholic Church
Reformed Church in America (NOTE: Somewhat. Varies by congregation and classis.)
Restoration Church of Jesus Christ (Salt Lake City, Utah, USA) — a Latter Day Saint denomination
Rocky Mountain Annual Conference of the United Methodist Church
Swedenborgian Church of North America
The Progressive Episcopal Church
United Catholic Church
United Church of Christ
United Church of Canada
Unity Fellowship Church Movement
Unity Church

The last one, Unity School of Christianity, is my church. Where I was baptised at 6 months old. They were "LGBT-Affirming" before it was even "a thing." I knew and loved and worshipped with gay people before I even knew what gay is. The first man I ever mourned was a gay Black man. But you will lump me -- and thousands, if not millions, of others -- into the same pot because you refuse to see past the politcal propaganda and divisive tactics. There's a reason the most hateful "Christians" get all the political/media attention.

Imagine if we stopped giving the hateful people the attention... imagine if we focused on those with love and compassion and good will in their hearts... imagine if we showed people a better way and gave them better options...

Unfortunately, as long as people continue to play the divide-and-conquer game, that cannot happen.

a reply to: Benevolent Heretic

Actually, the whole thread has demonstrated wholesale ignorance of a key FACT of religion and belief. The range goes like this per extensive research over several decades:

There are the

1. INDISCRIMINATELY ANTI-RELIGIOUS,
2. OTHER ATHEISTS/AGNOSTICS,
3. EXTRINSICALLY RELIGIOUS,
4. INTRINSICALLY RELIGIOUS,
5. INDISCRIMINATELY PRO-RELIGIOUS,

BIGOTRY in word and behavior is WORST, by a significant margin, with the INDISCRIMINATELY ANTI-RELIGIOUS.

The next worst at bigotry are the indiscriminately pro-religious. However, they are significantly less bigoted than the indiscriminately anti-religious, IIRC.

Other atheists and agnostics mostly just don't care much about any of it one way or the other. They don't get their emotions triggered one way or the other.

The EXTRINSICALLY religious are the next most bigoted. These are the folks who make loud noises but take their religion off like a coat on Monday morning to cheat their brothers and sisters like the blazes in business. They may SOUND extremely religious but do not walk the talk.

The INTRINSICALLY religious are by more than one or two standard deviations THE LEAST bigoted in word and deed. These are the folks who walk the talk; who say what they mean; mean what they say; truly care for the widows, orphans, abused gays; etc.

All this blather about RELIGION WITHOUT making these distinctions is simply inaccurate and ignorant.

don't know how that post happened. duplicate