After Orlando, time to recognize that anti-gay bigotry is not religious freedom: Neil Macdonald

Neil MacDonald is a prominent Canadian journalist and writes a lot of opinion pieces, this one stood out for me.

The article begins by discussing the shooting at Montreal's École Polytechnique in 1989, where a young man killed 14 women before killing himself.

As Neil points out:

The atrocity, and its stated motivation, immediately triggered an angry and overdue conversation in Canada about misogyny and collective male guilt.

It was hard to swallow, but only a dullard could reject the logic outright.

And, at least partially as a result, open sexism and misogynistic humour became far less okay after Polytechnique, at least in polite company. It was a transformative moment.

And in the next paragraph, the hard part, the part nobody wants to talk about:

Now, after Omar Mateen armed himself, reportedly professed allegiance to ISIS and went hunting gays in an Orlando night club, could there possibly be a better time to have the same conversation about organized religion, and what responsibility it bears for the pain and misery and death inflicted on gays for so many centuries in the name of god?

At what point do we start having the national conversation that bigotry is not religious freedom. Not wanting to serve people because of your feelings towards them is not your right or your freedom in the 21st century. And I don't agree with Neil often, but this lat bit:

In any event, this much is singularly true: the worst mass murder in American history was directed at one group, and it was done by some one who had sworn allegiance to a fundamentalist religious group.

If casual misogyny and sexist humour helped create Marc Lépine, then organized religion must reflect on helping shape a culture that will this week have led to 50 funerals in Florida. It's not just the extremists who want to deprive gays of human rights.

I could not have said it better myself. As we've seen already, from some of the responses in the religious community, they are all but jumping for joy that this occurred in some circles or condemn the violence but not the outlook.

~Tenth

Are you saying this was a religiously based attack?

Are you advocating for the policing of thought?

I agree it's bad but I don't care if someone does or doesn't like anyone I care that they keep those idiotic thoughts to themselves.

What exactly are you advocating for?

a reply to: tothetenthpower

I think there is a broader conversation here about religion and its practices of discrimination, as I am atheist and fully believe a world devoted to technology instead of a sky fairy is the most productive world, and that the world has seen what it is like living under organized religion and it's time to move away from that as much as we can.

However, to take the spotlight off of the deadliest shooting (attack) in American history which was committed by an Islamic extremist I believe is dangerous, we ought to be talking about our war strategy, we ought to have a leader talking to us in a transparent way about why we are here, why we are attacked, and what we will do to snuff our enemies out, so while talking about bigotry and discrimination is great, it is not the core conversation we should be having after this attack on America.

originally posted by: onequestion

Are you saying this was a religiously based attack?

If it was ISIS inspired, then yes it's religious based.

Are you advocating for the policing of thought?

Nope, but actions based in bigotry yes. Such as passing 'religious freedom laws'.

I agree it's bad but I don't care if someone does or doesn't like anyone I care that they keep those idiotic thoughts to themselves.

That's what I'm asking, that they keep it to themselves, out of politics, out of policing, out of education, out of everything that doesn't concern just them and their toughts.

What exactly are you advocating for?

That we don't allow bigots to use their religion as some sort of shield against their feelings being hurt. And not allowing that to result in discrimination.

~Tenth

originally posted by: onequestion
Are you saying this was a religiously based attack?

Are you advocating for the policing of thought?

I agree it's bad but I don't care if someone does or doesn't like anyone I care that they keep those idiotic thoughts to themselves.

What exactly are you advocating for?

Do you live under a rock?

There has been obvious religiously spawned laws passed recently in the US in regards to people's sexual orientation and where they OUGHT or OUGHT NOT relieve themselves in public establishments based on antiquated ideas of sexuality.

Now that community pays the ultimate price because another religious law, incorrectly, dictates that they should not even exist! And now 50 of those individuals no longer do exist!!!

Indeed, think what you want, hate what you want if you are so depraved to do so. But to allow the state sanctioned organization of systematic approaches to hate another through organized religion is taking it tooooooooooo far.

I'm not in support of the state taking down organized religion. But I am all for the people rendering it a thing of the past.

Deny ignorance.

a reply to: tothetenthpower

You said it better. 100% agree.

It's interesting that with this massacre I've seen the theme of religion pop up more than with any of the other similar events in the past. (Or as far as I can recall.)

Usually there is the first outcry against guns (gun-laws) or the lack of help for people with mental problems or anti-Muslim sentiment. But this time round the question on many people's lips is "Is religion the problem?".

And I'm yet to understand why this exact incident allows for parallels to be drawn between religion based bigotry and mass shootings?

Perhaps it's video's like this (I hate to give this guy any more traffic, but this Muppet's absolute ignorance and hate should be shown to the world):



You do realize that this topic will once again be used as "proof" for "The war on Christianity"?

If only those hateful Christians, Muslims, Satanists, Mormons, Atheists, etc. realized that there is no War against their religions. There's a war against their hate. If they use their religion as a shield for their hate, that shield will get damaged...

And I thought there should be a "Separation of church and state" to begin with?

originally posted by: onequestion

Are you advocating for the policing of thought?

No, i don't think he's advocating that at all. Simply that needless hate can lead to horrible #. You don't have to agree with someone's lifestyle, but advocating hatred toward those people seems just as bad as advocating thought policing.

He's also saying that there is a correlation with folks that identify as strongly religious and their utilization of their religiously backed beliefs as a justification for seemingly needless hatred. However, there are obviously plenty of people who identify as this that and the other religion who use their religious beliefs as a path to peaceful and other beneficial ways of living.

Personally, i don't think religion is the problem. I'd say the problem can be explained through modern psychology, historical trends, and more or less the evolution of our species.

You never, ever, further freedom for anyone if you ban it from others.

The right to choose who one wants to be with should be protected. So should the right to be free from persecution---based either on liftsyle choices or religious practices.

To deny bigotry, one often has to practice bigotry.


Me, I don't have any answers frankly, but more loss of liberties certainly isn't it.

a reply to: Sparkymedic

Slippery slope between being bigoted towards religion and gays
Hate is hate no matter how you disguise it

I'm not a Christian, but school gave me a bit of a grounding in the New Testament etc.
I can't really square the "Judge them not lest ye be judged" bit with, well, judging people like gays for what they do with their lives. Especially since they aren't hurting anyone else.

Just seems to me that Christianity is still conflicted between the pre and post reformation teachings.

(If there is one thing Islam needs, it's a proper reformation to ditch most of the bad stuff associated with it).

a reply to: tothetenthpower

Regardless of whether the attack was religiously motivated or not, it's indisputable that many/most of the mainstream religions of the world remain intolerant towards the gays. The more they breed a culture of intolerance, the more people like this will keep committing such heinous crimes.

We, as a society, need to move past these petty differences and united to fight for our common good rather than the right to isolate and regulate those who don't share our own social and/or religious philosophies.

a reply to: tothetenthpower

Out of curiosity do you feel the same about musicians who won't play in States they don't like, or cake shops that won't make anti gay-marriage messages on their cakes? Or do you just feel that a certain point of you should be enforced?

And once again we seem to have pivoted to talking about Christians even though it's Muslims who keep murdering people. It seems the anti-christian bigots will use any excuse to promote hate against their favorite scapegoat.

a reply to: Gemwolf

What a coward. "I don't advocate for violence," but it's perfectly fine for someone else to do so as long as it's for my cause! Pretty disgusting.

Anyway, if someones belief bends them to the destruction of others, then do not sit behind said shield and cry foul when it's their turn to strike a blow.

a reply to: Gemwolf

You do realize that this topic will once again be used as "proof" for "The war on Christianity"?

Let them try and defend themselves in that way. Let's see the religious leaders of American try to claim that wondering if their bigotry against LGBT helped radicalize an American man to kill 50 people, is a war against Christianity.

That should go well.

here's a war against their hate. If they use their religion as a shield for their hate, that shield will get damaged...

And that's exactly my point with this thread. Their shield cannot be used anymore to claim bigotry and intolerance as some tenant of their faith.

That time has long passed. I don't think that religion in General is an issue, I mean look at Canada, we hardly deal with these issues here because nobody is really interested in discriminating against specific groups and those that try, are generally not paid attention to and forgotten easily.

I don't know why the same isn't done in the USA, but I have a feeling it has a lot to do with the media.

~Tenth

This seems to be the preferred left-wing talking point after the shooting. Everywhere I go it's left-wingers ranting about Christians and "religious freedoms". What we have is another extreme Muslim who decided to murder people and left-wingers just can't deal with reality. It's almost as if their programming is forcing them to deflect. Instead of dealing with reality they're letting their anti Christian bigotry got their narrative.

a reply to: TheBulk

Out of curiosity do you feel the same about musicians who won't play in States they don't like, or cake shops that won't make anti gay-marriage messages on their cakes?

One of these things is not like the other. The first is a musician practicing political activism the best way they can, by denying a state revenue based on it's chosen path of discriminating against people.

The other is just religious people who want to discriminate against gays. So, I don't know how to answer your question.

And once again we seem to have pivoted to talking about Christians even though it's Muslims who keep murdering people. It seems the anti-christian bigots will use any excuse to promote hate against their favorite scapegoat.

Ah there's the feigned outrage. The issue at large is since America is a 'christian country', and this man was American, he was likely more influenced by the mainstream religions of America in his line of thinking. And since they heavily discriminate and act intolerant of LGBT, well, you see where I'm going.

I'm not anti-christian or anti religion, I'm anti bigotry. It just so happens that a large swatch of Christians feel the same way and therefore get a lot of attention for it. If you'd like people to stop being mean to Christians, have Christians stop being mean to others.

~Tenth

a reply to: tothetenthpower

Absolutely agree with you.

As a Christian, it upsets me greatly that persons who profess to faith, fail often to express love, only opposition, toward those who have alternative lifestyles. Tis as if they believe all who fall outside their ideals, to be avatars of Satan, when all they are is people, as flawed and damaged as are we all. The reality is that there is no us and them, there is only us. Humanity. We are all paddling the same canoe here, and we should respect that fact enough to respect the free will choices of our fellow human beings.

After all, God gave us free will, he did not create mere puppets, but thinking, feeling individuals. We are not meant to judge others, precisely because we have free will, we are not perfect servants of God, none of us, not the Pope, not your local vicar, or any churchman or churchwoman in Christendom. Casting judgement is not within our remit. We should be appalled that our fellow human beings have been assaulted and murdered, and make no comment nor harbour any unspoken opinion of the people who were killed, the community that was assaulted, because for everyone we damn, we damn ourselves.

We would be better placed offering love and support. That is our duty as Christians.

originally posted by: tothetenthpower


One of these things is not like the other.

Says the guy who's comparing not taking part in an event with mass murdering 50 people.

Ah there's the feigned outrage. The issue at large is since America is a 'christian country', and this man was American, he was likely more influenced by the mainstream religions of America in his line of thinking.

HE WAS A MUSLIM!

And since they heavily discriminate and act intolerant of LGBT, well, you see where I'm going.

Right because his mosque preached death to gay people. A mosque is where Muslim go to pray.

I'm not anti-christian or anti religion, I'm anti bigotry.

No you're not. You're fine with bigotry as long as it's directed towards a group you don't like, be it Americans or Christians or right wingers. A Muslim as murder 50+ people and you cant even bring yourself to say "Muslim" All you can do is rant about all the people you hate.

It just so happens that a large swatch of Christians feel the same way and therefore get a lot of attention for it.

No this is a broad generalization you thought up based on your hatred and bigotry towards Christians.

If you'd like people to stop being mean to Christians, have Christians stop being mean to others.

A Muslim murdered 50 people. This has nothing to do with Christians. A Muslim murders 50 people and you're here whining about your scape goat "being mean".