Autogynephilia: The Elephant in the Transgender Bathroom

I wish some of our European friends would weigh in. They did on another thread a while back, and I believe their toilets in restaurants, and public places are for pay. Even in a restaurant you must pay to use the toilet.

I noticed in the finer restaurants and hotels in Manhattan, each bathroom had an attendant. She just sat in the bathroom and cleaned it. Offered you a hot towel when you left and opened the door for you. (for tip).

Maybe it will come to that. Pay toilets with an security guard attendant, and pay to enter, and maybe even sign in. Photo ID, please.

And then we can wallow in our stupidity knowing we did this to ourselves.

eta: Seems like I remember some of them saying most of their public toilets are shared by both genders anyway, and they were uncertain as to why Americans are in meltdown mode over this issue.

a reply to: Gryphon66

have you looked at the history of all the mental health that was forced upon them in the past?
we've screwed with their hormones, gave them electoshock treatment, shamed them, prayed it out of them, beat them, heck the nazis even tried to genocide it out of their society, the mental health community has decided that there is nothing that they can do..

And there you go again. Big sigh. Safety has been my concern from the beginning -- not yours. It was, in fact, your scorn and contempt for the safety of women and children that literally made me cringe and made me step back, because I honestly don't know how to respond to that (at least not in a productive way), and I refused to feed that fire.

Safety is the ONLY legitimate concern. I'm glad you finallly acknowledge that and stopped trying to ignore or excuse it.

And that said I shall ignore you again.

originally posted by: Gryphon66
So, ignoring the ridiculous sniping and misrepresentations ... we've clarified the issue here:

Men are dangerous.

So since men are not going to be less dangerous with laws that discriminate against Trans* folks ... the focus of all this IF THE ISSUE IS REALLY SAFETY AND PRIVACY and not just payback for losses in the "Culture Wars" ... then (and how many times have I said this, have others said this and still it is patently ignored by the authoritarian apologists) ...

The issue is safety and privacy. Let's concentrate on making these facilities safer and more private for all.

That has nothing to do with hackneyed opinions about who has the right to be who they are, what ancient backwater discredited theories have to be dredged up and what wild illogical connections have to be made to justify blatant and open discrimination ... let's make these spaces safer for ALL!

Who's with us?

You want numbers OK I just spoke to my daughter last night about the issue of date rape and this is what she told me.

In the 4-1/2 years she has been an ADA she alone has been involved in 198 cases of date rape. These include the just met at a bar cases. Of those 171 were claims made by women who say they woke up in the morning in bed with a strange man with no idea how she got there. Of that 171 cases 136 were reported 2 or more days after the fact. Of those 136 cases 112 were convicted based on the fact that the guy claimed not to know either. When the jury was interviewed in a few of those cases that made the news ( As in collage campus cases etc. ) the jury members said they felt he lied because how could the GUY NOT know how she got into HIS bed. That's 112 men in 4-1/2 years who went to prison for a sex crime in just this 1 city just because neither could remember what happened that night. All because the jury felt that the a guy would remember and so took advantage of her. And before you get in a snit I'm NOT saying he didn't do it or that SHE lied about what happened. There were men on those jury's too, mostly over about 40 who never delt with the issue. NO I'm not saying it didn't happen 40 years ago or 4 days ago, only that rapes went largely unreported then unlike now. That was for the most part due to the fact that the law tended to attack the women's history and try to make it her own fault. For example it wasn't until recently that the law decided that YES a man wife or even a hooker can be raped ( NO I'M NOT CALLING A MANS WIFE A HOOKER. ) Only that they both still have the right to say NO.

That anger you're feeling right now, remember it because that is how men feel every time some A-hole makes a stupid remark like you just did "Men are dangerous." My feelings are that there are 112 20 something men sitting in prison who's only crime was not getting a sighed consent form from the girl while she was sober and her friends or family found out and now she's trying to save face by claiming to have been too drunk to give consent as was therefore raped. That said I may very well be wrong, I don't know because I was not there. But to simple say that Men are dangerous pisses us off just as fast as if a man said that all women are whores. I would also say that most men get pretty pissed off when they sit in a bar for hours buying some girl drinks just to then be told to F-OFF I don't owe you anything. ( NO I DON'T THINK SHE OWES HIM ANYTHING. ) However, though I don't think she owes the guy anything, I do know that more and more young women are heading out to party with their friends with no intention of sleeping with a guy but every intention of making him think she will JUST to get him to buy her drinks. If you don't believe that just go to any singles bar and see how many of the women there have money on them, or even a credit card. For that reason I feel that those guy have every right to get mad. ( JUST MAD NOT VIOLENT ).

As for ME I got pissed about a post that say's that some states are safer for women because of the lack of morals with the man in those states, and my point was very simple. That being that not ALL rapes are by some screwed up guy hiding in an ally somewhere waiting for just any girl to pass by so he can attack her. We had a case here in Tucson a few years ago where a young girl was hitching and told the guy that gave her a ride that if he didn't give her his wallet she would scream rape. It may or may not have happened I don't know since I was not there. What I do know is that the only thing that saved THIS guy was the fact that the girl had a record of making the same claim that sent 2 men to prison. Her story made the evening news and since then the 2 guys have been released and their records cleared. There was also a case in Florida where a teacher was fired after a teenage girl was claiming rape. The teacher said that she had told him she would say he attacked her if he didn't give her a better grade. He felt she was bluffing and said no. He was never charged due to a lack of evidence, but the school fired him anyway, just in case, because the parents were yelling for his head. That is just 2 examples that I know of, so it's not JUST man with low moral fiber and no self control. Now I could say that ALL women use the promise of sex to get over on men, but unlike some I refuse to pigen-hole people like that. I'm more than willing to admit when I'm wrong but to have someone twist what I said into something it wasn't and then lump me in with the scumbags of the world who think their perfect and do what ever they want regardless of who gets hurt, or who think they know everything, and think everyone should agree with every stupid thing that comes out of their pee-brain, THEN GEEE I'M SORRY I GOT PISSED-OFF.

One more thing before I close this rant. 2 years ago I was babysitting my grand daughter. I decided to take her to a toy store at a mall. While there she said she needed to go potty. I took her to the bathroom (Men's room). When we came out I was grabbed buy a rent a cop and some lady rent a cop grabbed my grand daughter. I was put in hand cuffs and taken to their office and held until they could verify with my daughter that I permission to be there. All the time I was locked in this small room I could hear her screaming for me. In the end my daughter had to leave work and come there and sign a statement that she knew that I had MY GRAND DAUGHTER. I later learned that a man that was in the bathroom at the time told his wife that he had seen me "Touch her private place" SHE WAS 3 YEARS OLD. Both my daughter and I tried to sue the mall for putting my grand daughter through that but was told we had no case, and that the law protected the two people who reported it so we never even found out their names. I was never charged thank god the DA was a father of 4 girls and so knew what had happened. Since then I have learned that I was not the first man to have that happen too, and that those rent a cops were only doing what they were told to do. I do however think that I have grounds to get mad when it happens to others.

Finely let me say this to women,,,, EVERY GUY IN THE WORLD IS NOT TRYING TO GET INTO YOUR PANTS, I DON'T CARE HOW CUTE YOU ARE !!!!!!! Now if that ticks some of you off then I'm sorry but it's the truth.

originally posted by: Boadicea
a reply to: JoshuaCox

It's just ridiculous....

That's for damn sure!

Approximately 450 children are killed by their mothers each year.

Approximately 1.9 million are raped each year... let me write that out for you... 1,900,000. The vast majority of whom are female. And who were the vast majority --As in over 97% -- of rapists? .

MEN!

450 vs 1,900,000.

And the rape figures are low, because a large percentage are never reported.... as opposed to children who die at the hands of their mother.

Ridiculous indeed. Why am I not surprised that it's a man minimizing violence and brutality agains women as he insists on forcing men into women's bathrooms???? Keep making excuses. We appreciate knowing who you are.

Source for rape figures:

Obama’s claim that one in five American women has been a victim of rape or attempted rape
the 2011 National Intimate Partner and Sexual Violence Survey

Exactly..so in any rape case the woman should be instantly believed...just in case..

And in any child custody case the father should get custody... Just in case..

The father is 75% less likely to murder those children!!! 3 times more likely!!

We all see how many children are killed by their parents every year...hell most of the time it's the parents!

So we should be swapping kids amongst adults, you know. Just in case...




It is ridiculous to make laws for everyone , just in case.....

a reply to: Boadicea
Your 450 kids a year are killed by their parents is BS...


Unless your counting parents who kill their children in America and rapes world wide...but you haven't been making insane comments or nuthing, so I'm sure that mistake was accidental...

I'm sorry to almost everyone else here for my last post. I know it had very little to do with this topic. After being directly attacked I just felt I needed to defend myself.

That said I still don't feel that the public safety will any more of a problem than it is now. My bet is that these people have been using those bathrooms for years. The only thing that's changed is that others have become aware of it. I might also say that just because a man dresses like a woman does not follow that he does it for some perverted reason or that he's gay. I saw a guy in a comedy club once who dressed like a woman and his wife dressed like a man as part of their act. Now I don't know either of them but I don't think they were gay, just funny. I've also seen shows on things like the discovery channel about guys who dress as women and perform on stage. Not as a life style but as a job. Now I don't know what bathroom they use when dressed that way, but I will say that it was hard to tell that they weren't real women.

I think it's safe to say that there are a lot of factors that go into making a violent person, male or female, so I don't think any law is going to fix the problem. At least it hasn't yet. Murders and rapes still happen even though it's been a crime for years.

originally posted by: JoshuaCox
a reply to: Boadicea
Your 450 kids a year are killed by their parents is BS...

LOL!!!

Parents who do the unthinkable -- kill their children

A USA TODAY examination of more than three decades of FBI homicide data shows that on average, 450 children are killed every year by their parents.

originally posted by: Boadicea
a reply to: JoshuaCox

It's just ridiculous....

That's for damn sure!

Approximately 450 children are killed by their mothers each year.

Approximately 1.9 million are raped each year... let me write that out for you... 1,900,000. The vast majority of whom are female. And who were the vast majority --As in over 97% -- of rapists? .

MEN!

450 vs 1,900,000.

And the rape figures are low, because a large percentage are never reported.... as opposed to children who die at the hands of their mother.

Ridiculous indeed. Why am I not surprised that it's a man minimizing violence and brutality agains women as he insists on forcing men into women's bathrooms???? Keep making excuses. We appreciate knowing who you are.

Source for rape figures:

Obama’s claim that one in five American women has been a victim of rape or attempted rape
the 2011 National Intimate Partner and Sexual Violence Survey

The actual number of US rape convictions are about 2500 a year...at least the last few..

That is compared to the 450 deaths of children by their parents.


You do not get to add in totally unverifiable rapes where charges were never even filed. There is no actual way to know any of that. It is all based on hear say...

originally posted by: Boadicea

originally posted by: JoshuaCox
a reply to: Boadicea
Your 450 kids a year are killed by their parents is BS...

LOL!!!

Parents who do the unthinkable -- kill their children

A USA TODAY examination of more than three decades of FBI homicide data shows that on average, 450 children are killed every year by their parents.

I specifically said in comparison to your 1.2 million rapes per year.
That would mean literally require every person in America to be raped within a few decades. So I was assuming that was world wide stats..

Because the is only has 2500 rape convictions a year...


That is a very relative number to the 450 child deaths.

a reply to: JoshuaCox

The actual number of US rape convictions are about 2500 a year...at least the last few..

So if someone isn't convicted, the rape never took place? Yeah... right. I guarandamtee you that the the pain and trauma is just as real for the victims. But I already got that you don't care.

Obviously, women and children are already woefully under-protected... and rapists are already woefully under-charged and under-convicted.

originally posted by: Boadicea
a reply to: JoshuaCox

The actual number of US rape convictions are about 2500 a year...at least the last few..

So if someone isn't convicted, the rape never took place? Yeah... right. I guarandamtee you that the the pain and trauma is just as real for the victims. But I already got that you don't care.

Obviously, women and children are already woefully under-protected... and rapists are already woefully under-charged and under-convicted.

If no one is convicted of rape there is no confirmed case.

Those studies have a lot of the same problems other studies have..far too broad of questioning.... Then they lump in every stat as a confirmed case...

If you ask people "have you ever felt pressured into sex?" Then when people answer yes, you count that as rape....obviously your going to ruin the legitamcy of your study...

Cause that means every person who ever begged their partner for some concentual loving, is a rapist.

" have you ever had sex because you were under the influence of drugs or booze, when you wouldn't have otherwise??"

That classifies about 99% of drunkin one night stands as rape.

If you flat out ask people "have you been raped?" The stats fall dramatically and have continued to fall as society has improved and advanced.


I could play the same game with child deaths...

"What percent of accidental child deaths are really the mother who killed them..,

Only 240 get convicted..and 180 of those were commited by the mother!

So obviously mothers can't be trusted with their children!!! Sarcasm..

a reply to: Boadicea

Perhaps you'll look at the title of your thread again?

Anything about safety there? Privacy?

A debunked theory about "transsexuals" now reduced to a paraphilia, and of course gender identity ... and in your OP itself ... "dark side" "deceit" "dishonesty" and finally "danger" ... but is it danger from the Men ... as you've demonstrated are apparently the real threat?

No, it's danger from the imaginary murderous cross-dressers that you claimed are "a subset of the transgender community" after Blanchard.

Pfft. And now you're trying to back away from that hateful diatribe, and pretend that those who called you out on it are the ones that don't care about all individuals involved.

You're lying when you try to hang "scorn and contempt" for women and children on me, Boadicea.

Prime example of some of that pure deceit you're complaining about in the OP.

Women and children are NOT AT RISK from Trans* women and girls using the facilities as they have done for years WITH NO INCIDENT. But, as you've pointed out, Trans* women and girls WOULD BE IN GRAVE DANGER if forced to use the Men's facilities.

Is that 0.3% - 0.7% considered "acceptable losses" in your mind? Not in mine. Not in mine. I want everybody to be safe.

That doesn't mean having the State peering into our underwear.

I do look forward a promise of silence though; I only expect it to last until the next passive-aggressive storm blows through.

a reply to: MikeA

Wow. Did your daughter send all that to you in a text? Did you take notes? Did you just write down the important numbers?

I see that the idea that men are unjustly accused of rape is a big issue for you. I understand.

However your blanket dismissal of the national rape statistics presented earlier by Luthier (by the way not all rapes are "date rape" ... you may want to check with your daughter on that one for clarification) by suggesting that women were doing the equivalent of "just making it up" is just not factual.

Even if we had a statistical reference to back up what you've said.

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: MikeA

Wow. Did your daughter send all that to you in a text? Did you take notes? Did you just write down the important numbers?

I see that the idea that men are unjustly accused of rape is a big issue for you. I understand.

However your blanket dismissal of the national rape statistics presented earlier by Luthier (by the way not all rapes are "date rape" ... you may want to check with your daughter on that one for clarification) by suggesting that women were doing the equivalent of "just making it up" is just not factual.

Even if we had a statistical reference to back up what you've said.

Yes as a matter of fact I did take notes that was the reason I called her. And you may want to learn how to read or get your money back from the school you went to because I never said anything about ALL rapes being date rapes. Nor did I issue a blanket dismissal of the national rape statistics presented earlier by Luthier. I also never said anything about men being unjustly accused of rape being anything other than it does happen. You should put your glasses on because what I said was I took offence to the idea that any one state is safer for women to live in based on the morals of those who live there. Let me say that again in case you missed it AGAIN........

I TAKE OFFENCE TO THE IDEA THAT ANY ONE (1) STATE IS SAFER FOR WOMEN TO LIVE IN BASED ON THE MORALS OF THOSE WHO LIVE THERE.

I will give you one thing however I am VERY disgusted with the idea of rape. I can't tell you how many times I sat in a court room watching my daughter hammer some clown who's only defense was "She wanted it" or "She was asking for it just look how she's dressed" Hell it made me want to ring his neck right there.

"Even if we had a statistical reference to back up what you've said."

Now that to me sounds more sexist than anything else I think I've read. I guess it's not enough for you to have these women's sex life on parade in open court but those records should also be, oh I don't, on a billboard in time square, or how about we just put them up on the home page of every ones server. That way we can all get a look at them. Too much OK how about the radio DJ's across the country just read a list of the cases that happened in that city. That way we only here about the local sex lives of women who were raped would that make you happy. You seem really hung up on the idea that your right to know is more important than these girls right to not be hounded by fools just looking for a headline. [snipped]

That was my last post in this thread by the way I'm headed out for the weekend.

a reply to: MikeA

Right, right, I can't read ... yuk yuk.

What you did say, when we started discussing this particular issue, was that the national rape statistics were questionable because most of those were just women unjustly accusing men. However you want to cut that up is fine with me.

Here's what you said, perhaps you don't remember:

originally posted by: MikeA
Third if you check that list you will find that a lot of those "rapes" are women who wake up in a mans bed after drinking all night and regret it ( I got drunk and he took advantage of me. ) ( NO I'M NOT SAYING IT DON'T HAPPEN. I'm saying that two people get drunk and have sex it's not rape, it's regret. )

You seem to feel attacked because I disagreed with you and asked for backup for your claim.

You apparently felt attacked again when I questioned your notes from your conversation with your daughter, most blatantly because the stats you quoted were only a percentage of reported rapes.

And in reaction you're trying (not very well) to insult me. /shrug

It's sexist to ask for actual crime statistics rather than what you wrote down on a napkin at the dinner table after talking with your daughter??? Oooookay.

As to the rest of your little rant ... yuk yuk. You don't even make any rational sense.

If you can't back up your claims with something besides anecdotal evidence, particularly when you make a claim like "a lot of those "rapes" are women who wake up in a mans bed after drinking all night and regret it" ... you need to take care of the issues in your house before you try to say anything about the one's you think might be in mine.

Also, consider the phrase "meaningless hyperbole."

originally posted by: MikeA
a reply to: Gryphon66

Gee I'm sorry I just looked at where you're from. I may have been all wrong about your level of education, your being from the south and all. I'm sure that around there you're seen as sharp as a tack.


So did that piss you off me saying your IQ is below the levels of others just because of where you're from ? Or would it be better if I said it was from something else.

Sorry YOU can't insult me, I know stupid when I hear it.

Nice.

Have a good weekend.

originally posted by: Boadicea
a reply to: LadyGreenEyes

I saw those! Saw comments, too, blaming the parents, and even one claiming a "small increase" in rape cases wouldn't matter.

Yes, that was stomach churning, wasn't it? I have a feeling that's where we're going with all this -- victim blaming. It will never be anyone's fault except the women and children who are attacked, beaten, raped, killed, etc. They should have known better... they should have planned better... they should have done better.

Big time! Not even blaming, as much as not caring what happens to them. But, then, considering the responses to all of the cases so far, not really a surprise.

originally posted by: Boadicea
a reply to: LadyGreenEyes

That, or some defend it because they want people vulnerable. I have wondered about a lot of judges.

I'm pretty sure that's exactly what this is about. In part, because it feeds the divide-and-conquer mentality. Even if a big hulking bear of a man strangled and raped a women/child in full view, it would be blamed on anyone and everyone except the transgender "woman" and the bathroom laws... and we would continue fighting.

Well, that, and also that some of these behind-the-scenes people are flat out evil, and really do want to see people come to harm. Some places in the world, such attacks are already blamed on the victims. Heck, I'm not even sure it would be much of a stretch to believe they'd want to decriminalize certain things. Some groups have stated that for years.

originally posted by: Boadicea
And I've gotta say, after the numbers I've been reading about autogynephilia and rape and other ugly stuff -- all by MEN -- I'm beginning to think there may very well be a lot of men -- including politicians and judges! -- who are licking their chops at the prospect of putting women and children into even more risky and vulnerable positions. It's a sick sick world out there.

Exactly what I am thinking!! All of the claims about Hollywood, and from Great Britain, and all of the judges who pass ridiculously light sentences - it's clear that there is a vast network of these creeps out there. Looks like a lot are in positions of power.

originally posted by: Boadicea
a reply to: LadyGreenEyes

But, hey, no sensible rules on bathrooms, because perverts have rights. *smh*

And that's exactly why I'm so convinced that this isn't about transgender safety... or even respecting "civil" rights (despite natural rights ALWAYS taking precedence over civil rights). There's nothing safe about any of this for anyone. Oh wait! Except it sure makes it safer for predators.

"We shall know them by the fruits of their labors."

That's exactly it. Transgendered people aren't safer, because a lot of folks will be very resentful, and feel they are threatened. Women and children won't be safer, because predators will be welcomed with open arms.

We shall, indeed. Seems a comment I made elsewhere fits here as well - I think the veil is getting thinner.

Feels like I'm watching a soap opera sometimes.

I still see folks referring to "this law" that you all think brings on the Trans* Apocalypse.

What law are you talking about?