Autogynephilia: The Elephant in the Transgender Bathroom

a reply to: Gryphon66

Sorry if I offended you but if you will look again I said a lot not most, and I never said they fake it as I don't believe women fake being raped. What I mean is that in the law today if a man has sex with a woman when she is drunk he can be and some times is charged with rape. If that man was also drunk at the same time does not matter. As for where I get this information, I get it from both my son who is a police office, and my daughter who is an ADA. I think I can trust what they tell me as well as what I see and read.

I would also like to add that my daughter is a beautiful young woman with dirty blonde hair and powder blue eyes (both from her mother). She has been chased by young men all her life, and now my 6 year old granddaughter looks just like her and it scares the hell out of me. I've gone to bed every night since she was 10 thinking I would wake up to a phone call or knock on the door. But I keep that fear to myself. I would never even consider passing a law that restricts the rights of others just to make me feel better when I go to bed at night, nor would I ever ask her to change her life so I could sleep at night.

originally posted by: MikeA
a reply to: Gryphon66

Sorry if I offended you but if you will look again I said a lot not most, and I never said they fake it as I don't believe women fake being raped. What I mean is that in the law today if a man has sex with a woman when she is drunk he can be and some times is charged with rape. If that man was also drunk at the same time does not matter. As for where I get this information, I get it from both my son who is a police office, and my daughter who is an ADA. I think I can trust what they tell me as well as what I see and read.

No it is not the law today..

The problem isn't that the laws are written incorrectly. It is that the issue is almost always my word vs. yours.

Making it inherently hard to prove in any innocent till proven guilty setting.

That that you mentioned are BS proposed guide lines, usually by political action groups that have never been fully adopted.

originally posted by: MikeA
a reply to: Gryphon66

Sorry if I offended you but if you will look again I said a lot not most, and I never said they fake it as I don't believe women fake being raped. What I mean is that in the law today if a man has sex with a woman when she is drunk he can be and some times is charged with rape. If that man was also drunk at the same time does not matter. As for where I get this information, I get it from both my son who is a police office, and my daughter who is an ADA. I think I can trust what they tell me as well as what I see and read.

You didn't offend me. I'm asking for backup for your claim. Or, for you to say it's merely your opinion.

I understood what you said, you made a very specific claim regarding the list of rapes per capita and relied on others sharing your opinion to prove that your statement was true.

It isn't. You didn't have any facts backing you up, and indeed, whether you realize or not, that thought process is part of the problem. It seems to be a "reasonable way" to justify rape.

It isn't. You're offering your opinion as if it is true. That's part of the larger problem here.

originally posted by: Boadicea
a reply to: LadyGreenEyes

You are welcome! Quite recent case, and relevant, though some here would prefer to pretend otherwise.

Every case is relevant. Especially to the victims. Here's a couple more that happened within the last month:

Police: Man attacks 6-year-old girl in women’s bathroom

Chicago man chokes 8-year-old girl in public bathroom

I saw those! Saw comments, too, blaming the parents, and even one claiming a "small increase" in rape cases wouldn't matter.

originally posted by: Boadicea

That's the sort of thing that has me with the kids in public restrooms. Some jerk trying that with one of my girls won't be walking out! Son, either, for that matter.

I don't get it either. An ounce of prevention and all that...

These days, of course, we'd be in jail for "violating the rights" of the pervs.

originally posted by: Boadicea

I have to wonder, too, what sort of person defends policies that would encourage this sort of thing to happen?

I don't know. I assume it's the "can't happen to me" mindset... and the "if it doesn't happen to me then I don't care as long as I get what I want" mindset. And, of course, the victim blaming mindset.

That, or some defend it because they want people vulnerable. I have wondered about a lot of judges.

originally posted by: Boadicea

That's bizarre! What sort of upbringing causes people to act in such a fashion? 35%??? Wow......

I don't even know what to say to that.

It's a very scary number to ponder... that's over a third!

It is, indeed. But, hey, no sensible rules on bathrooms, because perverts have rights. *smh*

a reply to: Raxoxane

Yea, our country is dangerous and all, but accompanying your 10yo son into the ladies restroom is weird.. really weird.. My parents let me do my own thing since I can remember.

a reply to: nullafides

I was raised to believe that my rights extend to the reach of my fingertips. But, that my reach of rights did not eclipse the reach of others rights.

I feel that those who are transgender deserve to feel at ease. However, does their right to do so come at the cost of the ease of others? Where is the line drawn?

I see you took some flack for expressing your honest opinion but I don't believe it was deserved. There's no greater enemy to liberty and equality than a closed mind because a closed mind cannot be reasoned with and neither liberty nor equality can be properly appreciated without a capacity for reason. You at least seem to be open to changing your opinion.

I don't think some of these questions are as difficult as you believe but perhaps they're not as simple as others are making them out to be either.

It seems to me anyway, that it's not reasonable for instance to consider restrooms, locker rooms, changing rooms, etc as being the same any more than it would be an exam room and the waiting room at your doctor's office. Restrooms and changing rooms nearly always have partitioning to provide individual's privacy. Locker rooms on the other hand may or may not. I don't want to stray too far but it suffices to say that I don't find privacy to be much of much relevance to this discussion.

A person has a right to not be assaulted. However, despite the best efforts of the OP and so many others, it's fairly obvious that the "safety concerns" are irrational. I could leave it there but I'd also want to point out that even if there were some reason (and there's not) to believe that there is a higher incidence of sexual assaults committed by transgender folks as a group, it is the height of illiberal thinking to believe that membership in a demographic group should have any bearing on an individual's civil liberties. So on those two points, the would be safety concerns are without merit. What also seems to be entirely lacking from proponents of that argument is any concern for the safety of trans individuals. If as the OP asserts, a heterosexual male alone in a room with a female is a sexual assault waiting to happen, why is she so eager to throw trans women into the predator packed men's rooms?

What are we left with? What people are comfortable with? Well that's actually quite easy:

What's a more fundamental right than ownership of one's own self? There is none. Do we not also have a fundamental right to be who we are?

What about an individual's right to not be made uncomfortable by who somebody else is? You know the answer to that already:

I was raised to believe that my rights extend to the reach of my fingertips. But, that my reach of rights did not eclipse the reach of others rights.

Saying that you have a right to not be made uncomfortable by who somebody else is would be no different than saying that you have a right to dictate to people who they are. An individual has no right to force another to be or stop being anything. No such right could logically exist in a society of free and equal individuals as its existence would require that at least some people don't have a right to be who they are.

a reply to: MikeA

The way the US legal system works is, they do not waste the time money and effort to prosecute mistermenors, when they have a major felony to charge you with.

Say you commit a murder, then flee from police when pursued. In that police pursuit, you would be speeding, evading arrest, reckless driving exc. but when the state charges you, it will ONLY BE FOR MURDER.

The time money and effort to prosecute a traffic infraction, just isn't worth it when compared to the murder charge. Besides, how do they pay their traffic fines, when they are in jail for decades for murder?? They can't.

So the state drops the minor charges and focuses on the major ones.

So even in the worst case situation imaginable,say a pervert dresses like a trans person then rapes some child in the bathroom. When he goes to court he will not be charged with both rape and being in the wrong bathroom. They will drop the minor bathroom charge, and focus on the rape.

If the offender cops a plea deal it will DEFINATELY be dropped as part of the deal.


So the ONLY people who will ever be charged with the NC bathroom law are random trans people who's only charge is the bathroom charge....aka some poor smuck who literally just needed to pee...


Oh by the way, won't this make using the wrong restroom for convienence illegal too... You know, it's a single room and the men's is taken or out of order, so you use the ladies instead... Now that's a criminal offense right?

a reply to: theantediluvian

However, despite the best efforts of the OP and so many others, it's fairly obvious that the "safety concerns" are irrational.

No, the safety concerns are well established and well documented... as I'm sure you well know, since you are very clear in the following sentence to qualify this well known threat with "higher incidences." So you do know there is already a risk and threat, but you just don't care.

I could leave it there but I'd also want to point out that even if there were some reason (and there's not) to believe that there is a higher incidence of sexual assaults committed by transgender folks as a group...

Actually, I'm pretty sure you've seen the many many lists of crimes committed by men dressed as women -- both in and out of bathrooms. I'm also pretty sure you're aware of the many many crimes committed by transgenders against transgenders, both in domestic situations ("Intimate partner violence") and in the sex industry (in which a high proportion of transgenders are employed).

...it is the height of illiberal thinking to believe that membership in a demographic group should have any bearing on an individual's civil liberties.

I'm not going to cry about being called an "illiberal" thinker... and given that I made several distinctions among transgenders, it is obvious that I'm not making blanket statements about a "demographic group" but about many of those within that group.

So on those two points, the would be safety concerns are without merit.

Only for those who don't care about the safety of others... and those who are gleefully aware of the LACK of safety being created.

What also seems to be entirely lacking from proponents of that argument is any concern for the safety of trans individuals.

Good point... but it's not me. Those same laws allow the haters and predators into the women's bathroom with the transgenders. They are not any safer either. This just increases the danger to everyone -- and increases the opportunities for haters and predators to do harm.

The closed minds are those who refuse to see better answers, because they just want one answer: Men in women's bathrooms. The unisex bathroom is the best answer I can see at this point. In schools, adult supervision is the answer. Even ensuring that only genuine transgenders -- with no violent history -- are allowed in the women's bathrooms. But that's obviously not the goal. This movement is about men forcing their way into women's bathrooms. If it were otherwise, then the unisex bathroom would be the go to option... and all these men who really really feel like women would get the necessary surgery and take the prescribed hormones and actually walk the talk, and then they could use the bathroom appropriate for their new and improved body.

The fact that so many -- especially MEN -- are treating the safety and privacy of women and children with such scorn and contempt, all I see are MEN forcing their way into WOMEN'S bathrooms. Just more men bullying women. Just more same old same old.

originally posted by: Boadicea
a reply to: theantediluvian

However, despite the best efforts of the OP and so many others, it's fairly obvious that the "safety concerns" are irrational.

No, the safety concerns are well established and well documented... as I'm sure you well know, since you are very clear in the following sentence to qualify this well known threat with "higher incidences." So you do know there is already a risk and threat, but you just don't care.

I could leave it there but I'd also want to point out that even if there were some reason (and there's not) to believe that there is a higher incidence of sexual assaults committed by transgender folks as a group...

Actually, I'm pretty sure you've seen the many many lists of crimes committed by men dressed as women -- both in and out of bathrooms. I'm also pretty sure you're aware of the many many crimes committed by transgenders against transgenders, both in domestic situations ("Intimate partner violence") and in the sex industry (in which a high proportion of transgenders are employed).

...it is the height of illiberal thinking to believe that membership in a demographic group should have any bearing on an individual's civil liberties.

I'm not going to cry about being called an "illiberal" thinker... and given that I made several distinctions among transgenders, it is obvious that I'm not making blanket statements about a "demographic group" but about many of those within that group.

So on those two points, the would be safety concerns are without merit.

Only for those who don't care about the safety of others... and those who are gleefully aware of the LACK of safety being created.

What also seems to be entirely lacking from proponents of that argument is any concern for the safety of trans individuals.

Good point... but it's not me. Those same laws allow the haters and predators into the women's bathroom with the transgenders. They are not any safer either. This just increases the danger to everyone -- and increases the opportunities for haters and predators to do harm.

The closed minds are those who refuse to see better answers, because they just want one answer: Men in women's bathrooms. The unisex bathroom is the best answer I can see at this point. In schools, adult supervision is the answer. Even ensuring that only genuine transgenders -- with no violent history -- are allowed in the women's bathrooms. But that's obviously not the goal. This movement is about men forcing their way into women's bathrooms. If it were otherwise, then the unisex bathroom would be the go to option... and all these men who really really feel like women would get the necessary surgery and take the prescribed hormones and actually walk the talk, and then they could use the bathroom appropriate for their new and improved body.

The fact that so many -- especially MEN -- are treating the safety and privacy of women and children with such scorn and contempt, all I see are MEN forcing their way into WOMEN'S bathrooms. Just more men bullying women. Just more same old same old.




ANY SAFTEY RISKS OF UNMONITORED RESTROOMS ARE BEING ADDRESSED!!


This law does not green light funding for security guards or whatever. It is unenforceable, and a net that is guaranteed to only catch the innocent. Because if a real felony crime is commited, they are dropping the BS "wrong bathroom" fine and focusing on the felony.

Anyone familiar with the legal system can tell you that.




Your entire premiss that "men have dressed like women to commit crimes before" is ridiculous...

Men far more often dress as men when they commit crimes. What maybe .000001% of all rapes and child molestation is caused by a man dressed as a woman?!?

So by your logic, shouldn't we be monitoring every male who doesn't dress like a woman...just incase?!?!


There is not even a realistic example anyone can think up where this law stops a rape.

It is totally nonsensical...

a reply to: LadyGreenEyes

I saw those! Saw comments, too, blaming the parents, and even one claiming a "small increase" in rape cases wouldn't matter.

Yes, that was stomach churning, wasn't it? I have a feeling that's where we're going with all this -- victim blaming. It will never be anyone's fault except the women and children who are attacked, beaten, raped, killed, etc. They should have known better... they should have planned better... they should have done better.

That, or some defend it because they want people vulnerable. I have wondered about a lot of judges.

I'm pretty sure that's exactly what this is about. In part, because it feeds the divide-and-conquer mentality. Even if a big hulking bear of a man strangled and raped a women/child in full view, it would be blamed on anyone and everyone except the transgender "woman" and the bathroom laws... and we would continue fighting.

And I've gotta say, after the numbers I've been reading about autogynephilia and rape and other ugly stuff -- all by MEN -- I'm beginning to think there may very well be a lot of men -- including politicians and judges! -- who are licking their chops at the prospect of putting women and children into even more risky and vulnerable positions. It's a sick sick world out there.

But, hey, no sensible rules on bathrooms, because perverts have rights. *smh*

And that's exactly why I'm so convinced that this isn't about transgender safety... or even respecting "civil" rights (despite natural rights ALWAYS taking precedence over civil rights). There's nothing safe about any of this for anyone. Oh wait! Except it sure makes it safer for predators.

"We shall know them by the fruits of their labors."

originally posted by: Boadicea
a reply to: LadyGreenEyes

I saw those! Saw comments, too, blaming the parents, and even one claiming a "small increase" in rape cases wouldn't matter.

Yes, that was stomach churning, wasn't it? I have a feeling that's where we're going with all this -- victim blaming. It will never be anyone's fault except the women and children who are attacked, beaten, raped, killed, etc. They should have known better... they should have planned better... they should have done better.

That, or some defend it because they want people vulnerable. I have wondered about a lot of judges.

I'm pretty sure that's exactly what this is about. In part, because it feeds the divide-and-conquer mentality. Even if a big hulking bear of a man strangled and raped a women/child in full view, it would be blamed on anyone and everyone except the transgender "woman" and the bathroom laws... and we would continue fighting.

And I've gotta say, after the numbers I've been reading about autogynephilia and rape and other ugly stuff -- all by MEN -- I'm beginning to think there may very well be a lot of men -- including politicians and judges! -- who are licking their chops at the prospect of putting women and children into even more risky and vulnerable positions. It's a sick sick world out there.

But, hey, no sensible rules on bathrooms, because perverts have rights. *smh*

And that's exactly why I'm so convinced that this isn't about transgender safety... or even respecting "civil" rights (despite natural rights ALWAYS taking precedence over civil rights). There's nothing safe about any of this for anyone. Oh wait! Except it sure makes it safer for predators.

"We shall know them by the fruits of their labors."

www.breakingthescience.org...

71% of parents who kill their children are women..

Since such a preportionally large amount of woman kill their own children, should we be stripping away a woman's parental rights, you know, just in case...


Maybe we should outlaw Christianity because of all the faith healers who slowly watch their children die by with holding anti biotics..

Islam too, because he'll, some of them are terrorists...

Businesses gotta get rid of them since some are corrupt..

It's just ridiculous....

a reply to: JoshuaCox

It's just ridiculous....

That's for damn sure!

Approximately 450 children are killed by their mothers each year.

Approximately 1.9 million are raped each year... let me write that out for you... 1,900,000. The vast majority of whom are female. And who were the vast majority --As in over 97% -- of rapists? .

MEN!

450 vs 1,900,000.

And the rape figures are low, because a large percentage are never reported.... as opposed to children who die at the hands of their mother.

Ridiculous indeed. Why am I not surprised that it's a man minimizing violence and brutality agains women as he insists on forcing men into women's bathrooms???? Keep making excuses. We appreciate knowing who you are.

Source for rape figures:

Obama’s claim that one in five American women has been a victim of rape or attempted rape
the 2011 National Intimate Partner and Sexual Violence Survey

originally posted by: Boadicea
a reply to: theantediluvian

No, the safety concerns are well established and well documented... as I'm sure you well know, since you are very clear in the following sentence to qualify this well known threat with "higher incidences." So you do know there is already a risk and threat, but you just don't care.

I guess I am gonna have to post this again.

A coalition of over 200 national, state and local organizations across the U.S. that work with sexual assault and domestic violence survivors are objecting to the justifications given by lawmakers to forbid transgender people from using the bathroom of their choosing.

“Over 200 municipalities and 18 states have nondiscrimination laws protecting transgender people’s access to facilities consistent with the gender they live every day,” according to the coalition. "None of those jurisdictions have [sic] seen a rise in sexual violence or other public safety issues due to nondiscrimination laws.

“All the data and all the evidence shows protecting transgender people only increase public safety,” Strangio said. He said laws like House Bill 2 imply “that fundamentally people just don’t think of transgender people as humans, and they try to erase trans people from existence.”

abcnews.go.com...

All this fear mongering is simply a cover for the religious right to attempt some kind of coup, having lost the marriage equality battle.

So, ignoring the ridiculous sniping and misrepresentations ... we've clarified the issue here:

Men are dangerous.

So since men are not going to be less dangerous with laws that discriminate against Trans* folks ... the focus of all this IF THE ISSUE IS REALLY SAFETY AND PRIVACY and not just payback for losses in the "Culture Wars" ... then (and how many times have I said this, have others said this and still it is patently ignored by the authoritarian apologists) ...

The issue is safety and privacy. Let's concentrate on making these facilities safer and more private for all.

That has nothing to do with hackneyed opinions about who has the right to be who they are, what ancient backwater discredited theories have to be dredged up and what wild illogical connections have to be made to justify blatant and open discrimination ... let's make these spaces safer for ALL!

Who's with us?

a reply to: kaylaluv

All this fear mongering is simply a cover for the religious right to attempt some kind of coup, having lost the marriage equality battle.

That's a crock and you know it. I never opposed gay marriage, and I never will. This has nothing to do with my faith. I also know that many many people oppose this law for exactly the reasons I do.

I heard about autogynephilia from a gay man who is totally against the transgender bathroom laws -- for SAFETY reasons. I heard even more from lesbians, who are not only against it, but afraid of it. I know of many feminists who oppose the law for the same reasons: SAFETY.

All I see among the supporters of transgender bathroom laws are folks with absolutely no care or regard for the safety of those put in harm's way.... and those who want it for exactly that reason. I cannot yet distinguish between the sheeple and the wolves, but it seems we'll be finding out the hard way.

But keep making your case. I won't stop you ... but I won't be part of it either. I've made my case and I'm standing by it.

a reply to: Gryphon66

The issue is safety and privacy. Let's concentrate on making these facilities safer and more private for all.

Thank you. I knew you could do better. What are your suggestions?

I've given several options for increasing safety for everyone, including unisex bathrooms, attendants, cameras, adult supervision in schools... Someone posted an article that spoke about new bathroom designs for new construction.

I've searched for more, but came up woefully short.

originally posted by: Boadicea

All I see among the supporters of transgender bathroom laws are folks with absolutely no care or regard for the safety of those put in harm's way.... and those who want it for exactly that reason. I cannot yet distinguish between the sheeple and the wolves, but it seems we'll be finding out the hard way.

And you think the National Task Force to End Sexual and Domestic Violence Against Women has no care or regard for the safety of women?

Those who perpetuate falsehoods about transgender people and nondiscrimination laws are putting transgender people in harm’s way and making no one safer. We cannot stand by while the needs of survivors, both those who are transgender and those who are not, are obscured in order to push a political agenda that does nothing to serve and protect victims and potential victims.

National Organizations:

Alliance for Strong Families and Communities

American Association of University Women

American Dance Therapy Association

Asian Pacific Institute on Gender Based Violence

Battered Women's Justice Project

Break the Cycle

Center for Women Policy Studies

FaithTrust Institute

Futures Without Violence

Hollaback!

Just Detention International

Know Your IX

Legal Momentum

Men As Peacemakers

Men's Story Project

National Alliance for Partnerships in Equity (NAPE)

National Alliance to End Sexual Violence

National Center for Victims of Crime

National Center on Domestic and Sexual Violence

National Coalition Against Domestic Violence

National Council of Jewish Women

National Domestic Violence Hotline

National Housing Law Project

National Indigenous Women's Resource Center

National Latina@ Network: Casa de Esperanza

National Network to End Domestic Violence

National Organization for Men Against Sexism

National Organization for Women

National Organization of Asian Pacific Islanders Ending Sexual Violence

National Organization of Sisters of Color Ending Sexual Assault

National Organization for Victim Assistance

National Resource Center on Domestic Violence

National Women’s Law Center

Praxis International

Resource Sharing Project

Stop It Now!

Support Network of Advocates for Protective Parents

YWCA

4vawa.org...

originally posted by: Boadicea
a reply to: Gryphon66

The issue is safety and privacy. Let's concentrate on making these facilities safer and more private for all.

Thank you. I knew you could do better. What are your suggestions?

I've given several options for increasing safety for everyone, including unisex bathrooms, attendants, cameras, adult supervision in schools... Someone posted an article that spoke about new bathroom designs for new construction.

I've searched for more, but came up woefully short.

I thought you could do better, but we've been witness to page after page of your continued non-interest in what many of us have been saying for page after page, after the errant claims in the OP were finally addressed. Apparently, that took some time to sink in.

Many people will not have issues with sharing common spaces with Trans* folks, once it becomes more clear, as it has in many cities, companies, sports events, et. al. that there are no real added privacy or safety issues because of equal treatment ... so a lot of the spaces can remain as they are. Perhaps we can settle on a date in which private accommodations must be provided even in "public" accommodations of all kinds, as there are many privacy issues that totally unrelated to Trans* concerns that should be addressed.

Cameras and attendants are possible solutions ... but bring their own individual concerns as well.

The key is to rethink the spaces themselves. As long as they're fair and safe and private for everyone, anyone who doesn't like it can pee or poop or shower at home.

Thanks for finally acknowledging what many of us have been saying for pages rather than merely continuing the subtle insults!

a reply to: Gryphon66

The only issue I have with these "improvements" is, why haven't they been done before? There have been predators in public bathrooms since there have been public bathrooms. I think the answer is, these improvements cost a lot of money. Individual businesses are not going to be eager to spend that money. Any public restrooms covered by the state (public parks, etc.) are going to have to have funds approved by state legislatures --- and we know how the conservatives will vote on spending money. They will refuse and they'll blame it on transgender people.

I see ourselves 20-30 years down the road, still fighting to improve the public bathroom safety, with everything pretty much staying the same as it is right now. Meanwhile, what do we do about transgender people's rights?